The History of the Parthenon Marbles

[lordroel]

The Parthenon Marbles also known as the Elgin Marbles are a collection of Classical Greek marble sculptures made under the supervision of the architect and seems to be a conflict between the British Museum and Greece.

The History of the Parthenon Marbles



Elgin Marbles Wikipedia page

[stevep]

Feb 2, 2019 21:56:00 GMT lordroel said:

The Parthenon Marbles also known as the Elgin Marbles are a collection of Classical Greek marble sculptures made under the supervision of the architect and seems to be a conflict between the British Museum and Greece.

The History of the Parthenon Marbles



Elgin Marbles Wikipedia page

  As the article mentions its been going on a long time and there are arguments both ways.  Greece does have a claim to them as their home for more than 2,000 years and their original creators.  On the other hand, while the article is strong on rhetoric and accusation it doesn't actually give any evidence that Elgin didn't actually buy them legitimately from their formal owners at the time.  In which case, by asserting an automatic right to them it opens a very nasty can of worms about most/all of the artifacts owned by private citizens, museums and other such organisations around the world, as this would mean that no one could own a single item from a foreign country that anyone from that country claimed.  I know for instance that Italy has tried to get the Mona Lisa back from France but has been refused and there is a lot of other items, probably running into the millions, either bought legally or actually looted in other cases. 

  One other argument for the British Museum to maintain ownership, rather than them being restored to the Parthenon, which is normally stated as the intention, is that with air pollution in Athens means that they would be pretty badly degraded fairly quickly.

  Frankly I would like to see them stay but I can see a strong argument for them to be returned as long as precautions were taken to ensure that this was a very special case.  Although I fear it would still open the flood gates for other claims.

[lordroel]

Feb 3, 2019 11:30:43 GMT stevep said:

Feb 2, 2019 21:56:00 GMT lordroel said:

The Parthenon Marbles also known as the Elgin Marbles are a collection of Classical Greek marble sculptures made under the supervision of the architect and seems to be a conflict between the British Museum and Greece.

The History of the Parthenon Marbles



Elgin Marbles Wikipedia page

  As the article mentions its been going on a long time and there are arguments both ways.  Greece does have a claim to them as their home for more than 2,000 years and their original creators.  On the other hand, while the article is strong on rhetoric and accusation it doesn't actually give any evidence that Elgin didn't actually buy them legitimately from their formal owners at the time.  In which case, by asserting an automatic right to them it opens a very nasty can of worms about most/all of the artifacts owned by private citizens, museums and other such organisations around the world, as this would mean that no one could own a single item from a foreign country that anyone from that country claimed.  I know for instance that Italy has tried to get the Mona Lisa back from France but has been refused and there is a lot of other items, probably running into the millions, either bought legally or actually looted in other cases. 

  One other argument for the British Museum to maintain ownership, rather than them being restored to the Parthenon, which is normally stated as the intention, is that with air pollution in Athens means that they would be pretty badly degraded fairly quickly.

  Frankly I would like to see them stay but I can see a strong argument for them to be returned as long as precautions were taken to ensure that this was a very special case.  Although I fear it would still open the flood gates for other claims.

Problem and that is what the British Museum knows, if they give this ore any artifact to the once who claim ownership it will open a floodgate of other claimers going to other museums across the world who want back what they claim as is theirs.

[kyng]

Feb 3, 2019 11:30:43 GMT stevep said:

Feb 2, 2019 21:56:00 GMT lordroel said:

TOne other argument for the British Museum to maintain ownership, rather than them being restored to the Parthenon, which is normally stated as the intention, is that with air pollution in Athens means that they would be pretty badly degraded fairly quickly.

Well, here's the thing. People who want the Elgin Marbles to be returned to Athens normally imply that they will be restored to their original position in the Parthenon. However, in reality, this is not what would happen: the Greek proposal is that they be transferred from a museum in London to a museum in Athens. From a history-lover's perspective, that's a significantly less enticing prospect. 

And, indeed, the marbles were not 'robbed' or 'looted' as such: they were purchased legally from the Ottoman Empire, which was the legitimate ruling authority of Greece at the time. However, the fact that these are so important to Greek Culture (and the Greeks had no say in the purchase of these marbles) does feel somewhat uneasy. 

I feel like the neatest solution to this conflict would be as follows:

1) Greece acknowledges that the marbles were acquired legally from the Ottoman Empire, and that the British Museum is the legal owner; 
2) Turkey (as the legal successor to the Ottoman Empire) reimburses Greece for the loss of the marbles;
3) Greece does whatever it wants with the money (it could buy the marbles back if it wants).

Though, I think this plan has a snowball's chance in Hell of actually happening . 

[stevep]

Feb 3, 2019 22:29:07 GMT kyng said:

Feb 3, 2019 11:30:43 GMT stevep said:

Well, here's the thing. People who want the Elgin Marbles to be returned to Athens normally imply that they will be restored to their original position in the Parthenon. However, in reality, this is not what would happen: the Greek proposal is that they be transferred from a museum in London to a museum in Athens. From a history-lover's perspective, that's a significantly less enticing prospect. 

And, indeed, the marbles were not 'robbed' or 'looted' as such: they were purchased legally from the Ottoman Empire, which was the legitimate ruling authority of Greece at the time. However, the fact that these are so important to Greek Culture (and the Greeks had no say in the purchase of these marbles) does feel somewhat uneasy. 

I feel like the neatest solution to this conflict would be as follows:

1) Greece acknowledges that the marbles were acquired legally from the Ottoman Empire, and that the British Museum is the legal owner; 
2) Turkey (as the legal successor to the Ottoman Empire) reimburses Greece for the loss of the marbles;
3) Greece does whatever it wants with the money (it could buy the marbles back if it wants).

Though, I think this plan has a snowball's chance in Hell of actually happening . 

  I would have to agree with your there, especially on point 2.  Not just because of the marbles but how many other issues might it open up about the centuries of Ottoman occupation of Greece?  Especially since the Greeks have been trying to get more 'compensation' from Germany for the WWII occupation.

[kyng]

Yeah, to be honest, if we handled all these other issues using a similar method, it'd probably cause more problems than it solves.

I will admit that the plan from my previous post was just something I threw out there (and there's a 99% chance that it has horrible implications which I haven't thought of), but at least it's *something*

[lordroel]

Feb 3, 2019 22:29:07 GMT kyng said:

1) Greece acknowledges that the marbles were acquired legally from the Ottoman Empire, and that the British Museum is the legal owner; 
2) Turkey (as the legal successor to the Ottoman Empire) reimburses Greece for the loss of the marbles;
3) Greece does whatever it wants with the money (it could buy the marbles back if it wants).

Doubt Turkey will ever give Greece money, especially if it knows where it might go to and that is to buy new warships Greece needs to counter the Turkish Navy.

[stevep]

Feb 4, 2019 4:16:21 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 3, 2019 22:29:07 GMT kyng said:

1) Greece acknowledges that the marbles were acquired legally from the Ottoman Empire, and that the British Museum is the legal owner; 
2) Turkey (as the legal successor to the Ottoman Empire) reimburses Greece for the loss of the marbles;
3) Greece does whatever it wants with the money (it could buy the marbles back if it wants).

Doubt Turkey will ever give Greece money, especially if it knows where it might go to and that is to buy new warships Greece needs to counter the Turkish Navy.

  Possibly not currently given the state of the Greek economy but given the deep mistrust between the two nations the idea of Turkey giving Greece compensation for acts during the period of Ottoman rule, even it somehow further claims for other events were definitely excluded seems a probability so close to zero to be indistinguishable from it.

[lordroel]

The creative displacement of the Parthenon Marbles

[kyng]

Feb 4, 2019 4:16:21 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 3, 2019 22:29:07 GMT kyng said:

1) Greece acknowledges that the marbles were acquired legally from the Ottoman Empire, and that the British Museum is the legal owner; 
2) Turkey (as the legal successor to the Ottoman Empire) reimburses Greece for the loss of the marbles;
3) Greece does whatever it wants with the money (it could buy the marbles back if it wants).

Doubt Turkey will ever give Greece money, especially if it knows where it might go to and that is to buy new warships Greece needs to counter the Turkish Navy.

Yeah, same here. My 'solution' belongs pretty firmly in Fantasy Land, to be honest .