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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 24, 2019 6:15:31 GMT
The Axis Victory maps can get a bit confusing, to say the least. There are maps that depict the MidEast as Italian territory, but in the book "In the Presence of Mine Enemies", the MidEast is part of Germany.
So what would the Middle East be like in an Axis Victory scenario? Given that the majority of the oil supply lies in that region, as well as natural gas, would it be a collection of Arab vassal states, or would it be split between Germany and Italy? Furthermore, there is also the emerging Jewish state in particular, and it is already a given that the Jews there would sadly be killed off. Unfortunately, it is also confusing since Hitler had met the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem as well, and there were even Muslim divisions of the Waffen SS.
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 24, 2019 8:37:51 GMT
Interesting scenario and major historical implications. Jews in Palestine are done for. There were significant populations elsewhere at the time too. Egypt, Iraq and Morocco spring to mind.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 24, 2019 17:42:36 GMT
The Axis Victory maps can get a bit confusing, to say the least. There are maps that depict the MidEast as Italian territory, but in the book "In the Presence of Mine Enemies", the MidEast is part of Germany. So what would the Middle East be like in an Axis Victory scenario? Given that the majority of the oil supply lies in that region, as well as natural gas, would it be a collection of Arab vassal states, or would it be split between Germany and Italy? Furthermore, there is also the emerging Jewish state in particular, and it is already a given that the Jews there would sadly be killed off. Unfortunately, it is also confusing since Hitler had met the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem as well, and there were even Muslim divisions of the Waffen SS. Well i posted once: Map: German feared invasion of the Middle East (1941) but it talks about the routes the Germans might take, if the Germans succeed i can see both Iran and Iraq who where pro-Germans before they where invaded by the British in 1941 having their deposed monarchs reinstated. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 24, 2019 17:51:32 GMT
The Axis Victory maps can get a bit confusing, to say the least. There are maps that depict the MidEast as Italian territory, but in the book "In the Presence of Mine Enemies", the MidEast is part of Germany. So what would the Middle East be like in an Axis Victory scenario? Given that the majority of the oil supply lies in that region, as well as natural gas, would it be a collection of Arab vassal states, or would it be split between Germany and Italy? Furthermore, there is also the emerging Jewish state in particular, and it is already a given that the Jews there would sadly be killed off. Unfortunately, it is also confusing since Hitler had met the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem as well, and there were even Muslim divisions of the Waffen SS. Well i posted once: Map: German feared invasion of the Middle East (1941) but it talks about the routes the Germans might take, if the Germans succeed i can see both Iran and Iraq who where pro-Germans before they where invaded by the British in 1941 having their deposed monarchs reinstated. Interesting maps. Those were created before Barbarossa I guess and the route via the Caucasus into the Middle East considered. Just a sketch scenario but I could see Egypt retaining its supposed independence in an Axis victory with the Suez under joint German-Egyptian control... but in reality it being German. Palestine's fate I am not sure of. Italy could, maybe, get French possessions in Tunisia and even Syria-Lebanon. I agree that Iraq and Iran would be under German allies. Local rulers could be installed along both sides of the Arabian peninsula though I suspect that the Germans would get rid of the Sauds and also have a proper colony on the Gulf, maybe even down near Yemen is they went that far. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 24, 2019 18:49:59 GMT
Heard stories that king Farouk of Egypt was a Italian sympathizer but do not know if it is true, but doubt the Germans are going to let the Italians have sole control of the Suez Canal if they mange to successfully invade Egypt.
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 24, 2019 19:48:25 GMT
Heard stories that king Farouk of Egypt was a Italian sympathizer but do not know if it is true, but doubt the Germans are going to let the Italians have sole control of the Suez Canal if they mange to successfully invade Egypt. The Germans would want that canal. Egypt and WW2 is a rather complicated matter but you're on the right track there with their king. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 25, 2019 1:59:43 GMT
Would the Germans be willing to support an enlarged Iranian state though? Although in issues relating to the Arab states, due to their position on the map, I would have suspected the Germans to simply acquire naval bases in the event that they would have won. On the other hand, would the areas around Jersalem be conceded to the Palestinian Arabs or would the Germans want to take control of it for themselves for special reasons?
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Post by EwellHolmes on Apr 25, 2019 4:03:32 GMT
Interesting scenario and major historical implications. Jews in Palestine are done for. There were significant populations elsewhere at the time too. Egypt, Iraq and Morocco spring to mind. Actually, it's possible Palestine ends up still becoming Israel.....as a Nazi ally. Up until 1939 the general idea of the Reich was deportation, first to Palestine until the British put a stop to it and the Madagascar idea was floating around as well. Interestingly, however, Lehi was seeking an Anti-British alliance with Germany for most of the war and offered to stage an uprising with German support; German officials did meet with them, although the plans never did move forward. In a scenario where the Germans overrun the Middle East, I could see the Reich deciding a Lehi-run state, full of the Jews they wish to remove from Europe, is a solid idea that solves two problems of theirs. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Apr 25, 2019 4:04:24 GMT
I cannot think of any scenario where the Axis are able to overrun the Middle East, sans a scenario where the Soviets do join the Axis in 1940 as was seriously considered.
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James G
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Post by James G on Apr 25, 2019 18:27:48 GMT
I cannot think of any scenario where the Axis are able to overrun the Middle East, sans a scenario where the Soviets do join the Axis in 1940 as was seriously considered. I think it is hard to achieve but not impossible. The Gibraltar Straits could be shut if Gibraltar falls and if the Italians can hold in East Africa, then there is the possibility that the Red Sea could be closed too. Maybe instead of Iran being conquered by the UK and USSR in mid 1941, Iran could provide German access to the Middle East from behind too. Yes, very difficult to do but just an idea. |
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Post by EwellHolmes on Apr 26, 2019 20:17:00 GMT
I cannot think of any scenario where the Axis are able to overrun the Middle East, sans a scenario where the Soviets do join the Axis in 1940 as was seriously considered. I think it is hard to achieve but not impossible. The Gibraltar Straits could be shut if Gibraltar falls and if the Italians can hold in East Africa, then there is the possibility that the Red Sea could be closed too. Maybe instead of Iran being conquered by the UK and USSR in mid 1941, Iran could provide German access to the Middle East from behind too. Yes, very difficult to do but just an idea. Reflecting on it, maybe to an extent it could happen. The Italians could've taken Malta and overran Egypt in 1940 easily enough, shutting down the middle and eastern Med; I just don't think it's possible to bring Spain into the war to get Gibraltar, however. Med Strategy for 1941 instead of Barbarossa could see the Germans push into the Middle East via a Lehi-uprising in support in Palestine, Vichy Syria and the Pro-Axis coup in Iraq. Iran might be able to then align with the Axis, although I'd imagine the Soviets/British might be able to prevent that. The Axis can't move into Saudi Arabia though, as that would definitely provoke the United States too much. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 27, 2019 1:51:19 GMT
Why would the Lehi launch an uprising in favor of the Axis, especially the very same Germans who are sending their compatriots to camps like Auschwitz? I could easily see the Germans turning on the Lehi if they actually sided with them against the British. And the Italian military is not exactly known for their decent performances against the Allies. The Greeks actually managed to push them back into Albania for one.
What I could say however, is that would Hitler support the expansion of Iran?
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Post by EwellHolmes on Apr 27, 2019 3:33:32 GMT
Why would the Lehi launch an uprising in favor of the Axis, especially the very same Germans who are sending their compatriots to camps like Auschwitz? I could easily see the Germans turning on the Lehi if they actually sided with them against the British. And the Italian military is not exactly known for their decent performances against the Allies. The Greeks actually managed to push them back into Albania for one. What I could say however, is that would Hitler support the expansion of Iran? . As for the Italians, in general they performed rather well but their various failures at times tend to obscure their overall performance. The Greek campaign is a great example of this, in that by the time of the German intervention the Italians had, despite the initial Greek successes, said Greeks on the ropes; their forces were dangerously overextended both strategically and logistically, without fixed defenses, and they had a few weeks of munitions left. Concurrent to this, much is made of Operation Compass but what gets left out of that discussion is that the British offensive had reached the end of its logistical lines and was about to slam into well prepared Italian defenses, numerically superior and IIRC more than a match firepower wise. You see this play out throughout the war as a whole as well. Rommel was notoriously dismissive of the Italians as a whole, especially their officer corps, but specifically noted the Italian soldiers were good fighters. This is backed up Western accounts, which note the tenacious, to the point of being suicidal, defense of Italian units in Tunisia; given the majority of Rommel's forces were Italians, this makes sense. On the Russian steppe, the 8th Army fought on even after being encircled, to the point the Russians in some cases were literally forced to overrun positions with their tanks. The Italians then burnt their unit standards as a fuck you to the Reds, and then staged a breakout on their own that saw some manage to escape which is a feat not many on the Axis side could claim in the Winter of 1942. When the RSI became a thing, their units developed a reputation as being the premier tank hunters of any side in the war and they used this to their advantage in December of 1944 to stage the last successful large scale offensive on the Axis side. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 27, 2019 10:00:51 GMT
Why would the Lehi launch an uprising in favor of the Axis, especially the very same Germans who are sending their compatriots to camps like Auschwitz? I could easily see the Germans turning on the Lehi if they actually sided with them against the British. And the Italian military is not exactly known for their decent performances against the Allies. The Greeks actually managed to push them back into Albania for one. What I could say however, is that would Hitler support the expansion of Iran? . As for the Italians, in general they performed rather well but their various failures at times tend to obscure their overall performance. The Greek campaign is a great example of this, in that by the time of the German intervention the Italians had, despite the initial Greek successes, said Greeks on the ropes; their forces were dangerously overextended both strategically and logistically, without fixed defenses, and they had a few weeks of munitions left. Concurrent to this, much is made of Operation Compass but what gets left out of that discussion is that the British offensive had reached the end of its logistical lines and was about to slam into well prepared Italian defenses, numerically superior and IIRC more than a match firepower wise. You see this play out throughout the war as a whole as well. Rommel was notoriously dismissive of the Italians as a whole, especially their officer corps, but specifically noted the Italian soldiers were good fighters. This is backed up Western accounts, which note the tenacious, to the point of being suicidal, defense of Italian units in Tunisia; given the majority of Rommel's forces were Italians, this makes sense. On the Russian steppe, the 8th Army fought on even after being encircled, to the point the Russians in some cases were literally forced to overrun positions with their tanks. The Italians then burnt their unit standards as a fuck you to the Reds, and then staged a breakout on their own that saw some manage to escape which is a feat not many on the Axis side could claim in the Winter of 1942. When the RSI became a thing, their units developed a reputation as being the premier tank hunters of any side in the war and they used this to their advantage in December of 1944 to stage the last successful large scale offensive on the Axis side.
The Italians had some good troops despite their officers and their equipment but the latter is vital in a N African position. They simply didn't have the logistics and the armour especially to force their way into the delta region unless Britain really fouls it up even more than OTL with the diversions, 1st to E Africa and then to Greece.
Lehi may have been mad enough to trust the Nazis but I doubt if many other Jews would have, especially when their nowhere near Palestine.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 28, 2019 5:09:19 GMT
Another thing too: would the Germans allow Saudi Arabia to annex the Gulf States? Or would Hitler allow the Gulf states to retain their independence?
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