mobiyuz
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Post by mobiyuz on Jun 11, 2019 9:51:02 GMT
Timeline-191, also known as the Southern Victory Series, is an 11 book series by the prolific author Harry Turtledove split into the standalone book How Few Remain, the Great War trilogy, the American Empire Trilogy, and the Settling Accounts tetralogy. The expansive setting rests on the idea of the Confederate States of America successfully seceding from the United States of America, and examines the consequences on world politics and diplomacy up until the end of World War II in 1945.
Assuming that you've read the series or part of it or are just familiar with the series' lore, there's one thing most people can agree on: while it has some great stuff in it, it drops off in quality significantly as it goes on, something that Turtledove himself has admitted, with the "Second Great War" in North America being more or less just the Eastern Front of World War II transposed to North America, and the Battle of Pittsburgh very obviously being an analogue for the Battle of Stalingrad. I definitely have some things that I would have addressed in the series and written differently. For example, I would have included a good deal more focus on what was happening in Europe at the time, since in both of the Great Wars it's events in Europe that end up starting the wars, North America just joins later. Another example would be dealing with Japan a lot more, since Japan ends up causing a lot of problems during the entire series and just seems to get off without any consequences.
So, I'm curious to know: what would you change about Timeline-191, if you were able to rewrite any part of it?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 11, 2019 13:36:05 GMT
Timeline-191, also known as the Southern Victory Series, is an 11 book series by the prolific author Harry Turtledove split into the standalone book How Few Remain, the Great War trilogy, the American Empire Trilogy, and the Settling Accounts tetralogy. The expansive setting rests on the idea of the Confederate States of America successfully seceding from the United States of America, and examines the consequences on world politics and diplomacy up until the end of World War II in 1945. Assuming that you've read the series or part of it or are just familiar with the series' lore, there's one thing most people can agree on: while it has some great stuff in it, it drops off in quality significantly as it goes on, something that Turtledove himself has admitted, with the "Second Great War" in North America being more or less just the Eastern Front of World War II transposed to North America, and the Battle of Pittsburgh very obviously being an analogue for the Battle of Stalingrad. I definitely have some things that I would have addressed in the series and written differently. For example, I would have included a good deal more focus on what was happening in Europe at the time, since in both of the Great Wars it's events in Europe that end up starting the wars, North America just joins later. Another example would be dealing with Japan a lot more, since Japan ends up causing a lot of problems during the entire series and just seems to get off without any consequences. So, I'm curious to know: what would you change about Timeline-191, if you were able to rewrite any part of it? Love Timeline-191 but would want to see it less mirroring to much OTL. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 11, 2019 15:13:02 GMT
mobiyuz
I would agree with Lordroel that there's far too much mirroring of OTL. Mind you I never really see the basis for the conflict in So Few Remain or that despite their differences OTL by that date both Britain and France end up supporting the south when the north attacks it. Plus if your going to punish it after such a pointless war then why take just a bit of N Maine from it?
After that it just becomes a major rehash of OTL WWI & WWII but with a really, really stupid ending with so many powers achieving nuclear weapons pretty much simultaneously and then using them rather poorly. [Haven't read the last few books but a review of the final stages in a Youtube video and it just didn't make any sense by that stage].
Steve
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mobiyuz
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Post by mobiyuz on Jun 11, 2019 15:39:43 GMT
mobiyuz I would agree with Lordroel that there's far too much mirroring of OTL. Mind you I never really see the basis for the conflict in So Few Remain or that despite their differences OTL by that date both Britain and France end up supporting the south when the north attacks it. Plus if your going to punish it after such a pointless war then why take just a bit of N Maine from it? After that it just becomes a major rehash of OTL WWI & WWII but with a really, really stupid ending with so many powers achieving nuclear weapons pretty much simultaneously and then using them rather poorly. [Haven't read the last few books but a review of the final stages in a Youtube video and it just didn't make any sense by that stage]. Steve Oh yeah, absolutely. One of my biggest problems with the series is that while the German Empire is the first nation to get the atomic bomb, the CSA is the second nation to get it when - They lack the right scientists - They lack the proper resources - Their center of production is right next to the front lines and it would seem nearly impossible for them to get a bomb in the first place, let alone before France, Britain, the USA, or even Japan. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 11, 2019 15:43:05 GMT
mobiyuz I would agree with Lordroel that there's far too much mirroring of OTL. Mind you I never really see the basis for the conflict in So Few Remain or that despite their differences OTL by that date both Britain and France end up supporting the south when the north attacks it. Plus if your going to punish it after such a pointless war then why take just a bit of N Maine from it? After that it just becomes a major rehash of OTL WWI & WWII but with a really, really stupid ending with so many powers achieving nuclear weapons pretty much simultaneously and then using them rather poorly. [Haven't read the last few books but a review of the final stages in a Youtube video and it just didn't make any sense by that stage]. Steve Oh yeah, absolutely. One of my biggest problems with the series is that while the German Empire is the first nation to get the atomic bomb, the CSA is the second nation to get it when - They lack the right scientists - They lack the proper resources - Their center of production is right next to the front lines and it would seem nearly impossible for them to get a bomb in the first place, let alone before France, Britain, the USA, or even Japan. I always wonder, if the US of OTL needed the massive projecht that was called Manhattan, how in the heck would other countries be able to do their own project with maybe only 10 % of the resources the US had in OTL, i can see the German Empire do it, if certain Jewish scientist did not move out the country, but not in the time period that was depicted in the books. |
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Post by lukedalton on Jul 13, 2019 2:17:16 GMT
Well, what i change:
1 - more friendly to african-american population USA, always found ridicolous, not out of goodness and certainly not at 20/21th century level of integration, but more out of ideological spite towards the CSA.
2 - Japan not being ignored even after attacking the USA mainland in the interwar period. Frankly avoid that tidbit as it not really go anywhere
3- First Great War ending more in a stalemate that favor USA/Germany than a true victory
4 - fall of A-H in a civil war is the casus belli for the second great war as the can ofall the problem of the nations cannot be kicked on the road anymore.
5 - Italy being named in the book a little more, as the only great power neutral in both great war, will have a certain importance...even just as a neutral ground
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 13, 2019 5:47:23 GMT
mobiyuz I would agree with Lordroel that there's far too much mirroring of OTL. Mind you I never really see the basis for the conflict in So Few Remain or that despite their differences OTL by that date both Britain and France end up supporting the south when the north attacks it. Plus if your going to punish it after such a pointless war then why take just a bit of N Maine from it? After that it just becomes a major rehash of OTL WWI & WWII but with a really, really stupid ending with so many powers achieving nuclear weapons pretty much simultaneously and then using them rather poorly. [Haven't read the last few books but a review of the final stages in a Youtube video and it just didn't make any sense by that stage]. Steve Oh yeah, absolutely. One of my biggest problems with the series is that while the German Empire is the first nation to get the atomic bomb, the CSA is the second nation to get it when - They lack the right scientists - They lack the proper resources - Their center of production is right next to the front lines and it would seem nearly impossible for them to get a bomb in the first place, let alone before France, Britain, the USA, or even Japan. If i was right, also the French and British had them, ore am i wrong. |
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mobiyuz
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Post by mobiyuz on Jul 13, 2019 6:32:58 GMT
Oh yeah, absolutely. One of my biggest problems with the series is that while the German Empire is the first nation to get the atomic bomb, the CSA is the second nation to get it when - They lack the right scientists - They lack the proper resources - Their center of production is right next to the front lines and it would seem nearly impossible for them to get a bomb in the first place, let alone before France, Britain, the USA, or even Japan. If i was right, also the French and British had them, ore am i wrong. They also do, but it's at least more believable. Say they mine uranium from Australia, that could be a thing. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 13, 2019 6:39:24 GMT
If i was right, also the French and British had them, ore am i wrong. They also do, but it's at least more believable. Say they mine uranium from Australia, that could be a thing. It surprises me that Japan did not get the bomb before the end of the series, but they most likely will get in also. |
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mobiyuz
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Post by mobiyuz on Jul 13, 2019 6:40:33 GMT
They also do, but it's at least more believable. Say they mine uranium from Australia, that could be a thing. It surprises me that Japan did not get the bomb before the end of the series, but they most likely will get in also. By the end of the series, both Russia and Japan had begun progress on making their own bombs, and both the USA and Imperial Germany agreed that they needed to keep them from proliferating. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 13, 2019 6:51:33 GMT
It surprises me that Japan did not get the bomb before the end of the series, but they most likely will get in also. By the end of the series, both Russia and Japan had begun progress on making their own bombs, and both the USA and Imperial Germany agreed that they needed to keep them from proliferating. That is not going to work, every country has seen the power of the bomb, they want to make sure that they also have it as a deterrent. |
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mobiyuz
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Post by mobiyuz on Jul 13, 2019 6:53:19 GMT
By the end of the series, both Russia and Japan had begun progress on making their own bombs, and both the USA and Imperial Germany agreed that they needed to keep them from proliferating. That is not going to work, every country has seen the power of the bomb, they want to make sure that they also have it as a deterrent. I mean, look how the real-world cold war turned out. I'm sure glad we live in a world where only the United States and the USSR/Russia developed bombs and didn't destabilize global diplomacy by spreading them everywhere that would take them. /s |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 13, 2019 9:05:37 GMT
By the end of the series, both Russia and Japan had begun progress on making their own bombs, and both the USA and Imperial Germany agreed that they needed to keep them from proliferating. That is not going to work, every country has seen the power of the bomb, they want to make sure that they also have it as a deterrent.
As I understand it by this time both states are pretty heavily militarised and determined to control their own parts of the world. [Not that understandable in the case of the US given its war with the south, albeit that so much of the problems were caused by its status as aggressor in WWI]. As such their their likely to seek to impose non-nuclear status by force. Which should be possible with Japan but may be more difficult with Russia given its huge size.
That could be a possible alternative. The US instead of responding to its defeat in So Few Remains by going heavily militaristic and linking up with German does take a more military approach but for defence purposes only and instead of jumping in on the German side in 1914 stays neutral. Probably the south also stays neutral. Or that they fight their own private war. Admittedly it would sell less books for Tuttledove but its far more likely I suspect. The US would eventually conquer large areas of the south but probably not all of it and the war in Europe ending in either mutual exhaustion or a narrow allied win as OTL. Or possibly having defeated the south the US now threatens the alliance, forcing a peace but probably without further fightin. [Since everybody would be facing exhaustion and the US has a big task occupying the areas of the south it controls.]
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