James G
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Post by James G on Nov 23, 2019 23:15:16 GMT
In the midst of Hitler's war against what remains of the Western Allies, an unseen hand, that of an almighty force indeed, decides to give a 'tweak' to the strategic geography for the Battle of Britain. The geography of the North Sea as it was in 10'000 BC is brought about. The action is done to cause no noticeable destruction nor loss of life elsewhere - say through Northern Europe nor elsewhere - as all laws of physics are broken. British and European civilians and military personnel in what is now sea end up on land. No one anywhere is hurt. Doggerland now sits between Hitler's armies and Britain, a natural land bridge of major width has formed. Now what? Can Britain be conquered? Can Britain defend the Doggerland? (click on map to enlarge)  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 8:54:43 GMT
In the midst of Hitler's war against what remains of the Western Allies, an unseen hand, that of an almighty force indeed, decides to give a 'tweak' to the strategic geography for the Battle of Britain. The geography of the North Sea as it was in 10'000 BC is brought about. The action is done to cause no noticeable destruction nor loss of life elsewhere - say through Northern Europe nor elsewhere - as all laws of physics are broken. British and European civilians and military personnel in what is now sea end up on land. No one anywhere is hurt. Doggerland now sits between Hitler's armies and Britain, a natural land bridge of major width has formed. Now what? Can Britain be conquered? Can Britain defend the Doggerland? (click on map to enlarge) View AttachmentCan the hold out for 2 months until the United States enters the war, if they enter the war in this scenario. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 9:46:49 GMT
In the midst of Hitler's war against what remains of the Western Allies, an unseen hand, that of an almighty force indeed, decides to give a 'tweak' to the strategic geography for the Battle of Britain. The geography of the North Sea as it was in 10'000 BC is brought about. The action is done to cause no noticeable destruction nor loss of life elsewhere - say through Northern Europe nor elsewhere - as all laws of physics are broken. British and European civilians and military personnel in what is now sea end up on land. No one anywhere is hurt. Doggerland now sits between Hitler's armies and Britain, a natural land bridge of major width has formed. Now what? Can Britain be conquered? Can Britain defend the Doggerland? (click on map to enlarge) Can the hold out for 2 months until the United States enters the war, if they enter the war in this scenario.
Oh s**t I strongly suspect the answer is no. we have rebuild the army up from after Dunkirk but a lot has been moved from Britain to the ME. Where they are building up for Operation Crusader, which would push Rommel back and relieve Tobruk only for forces to be sent east to try and rescue Malaya and Burma. This operation will probably be cancelled and air units especially might be sent back to Britain.
Also a lot of naval bases have gone or are now largely landlocked and possibly a good bit of the RN and associated industry with them. Albeit that its worse for the Germans as their lost everything on the North Sea and is the Baltic now landlocked? Is the impact only in the N Sea or has the entire region been raised, as it looks like a lot of British mainland and some of the outlying islands have also been lifted, or is that just on the initial map and not affected by the ASB action? If it is many of the southern and western ports could be gone which would really cause problems although in the longer term there is more economic potential.
Although it might depend on what state the raised land is now in. Is it basically drained seabed, in which case it could be rather wet for a while or has it reverted to basically forest I suspect a lot of it would have been? Either way its a logistical desert, at least for a while which would help in defending but there could be some very nasty fighting trying to hold a German blitzkrieg, unless Hitler secure in his belief that Russia is about to fall decides to leave it to a winter campaign once Russia is defeated.
The US army wouldn't be a great help at this point as its still pretty small, although conscription was started the previous autumn so they have had the best part of a year to start training up to 900,000 conscripts - see Conscription_in_the_United_States#World_War_II. However they have relatively few trained and equipped men to deploy abroad even if Roosevelt is able to get a dow on Germany or Japan still attacks as OTL and Hitler still declares war on the US. [The former is pretty certain probably but the latter I'm less certain will still occur.] Mind you with a lot of their production capacity gone, especially if the Baltic is now landlocked the German U boat campaign now depends on what's already at sea/based in France. Depending on how badly the RN ships and facilities are affected and given we were getting considerable success in the Atlantic at this point it might be a lot easier bring stuff and possibly troops across the Atlantic.
It might help if there's been a general uplift of all the affected lands including Britain itself as that would mean there's something of a cliff, or at least slope between the old east coast and the new land. Looks like the Thames/Rhine union would be the southern flank of the defensive line while the northern end would be near the Wash. Depends on what Germany has spare from the east and what Hitler decides to do.
Possibly also if the Germans get established in the northern part of Doggerland a threat of amphibious [if they can find the shipping] or airbourne assault on the coast of NE England as the distances are quite close but they would need to establish bases and facilities there 1st.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 10:02:35 GMT
Can the hold out for 2 months until the United States enters the war, if they enter the war in this scenario. Oh s**t I strongly suspect the answer is no. we have rebuild the army up from after Dunkirk but a lot has been moved from Britain to the ME. Where they are building up for Operation Crusader, which would push Rommel back and relieve Tobruk only for forces to be sent east to try and rescue Malaya and Burma. This operation will probably be cancelled and air units especially might be sent back to Britain.
Also a lot of naval bases have gone or are now largely landlocked and possibly a good bit of the RN and associated industry with them. Albeit that its worse for the Germans as their lost everything on the North Sea and is the Baltic now landlocked? Is the impact only in the N Sea or has the entire region been raised, as it looks like a lot of British mainland and some of the outlying islands have also been lifted, or is that just on the initial map and not affected by the ASB action? If it is many of the southern and western ports could be gone which would really cause problems although in the longer term there is more economic potential.
Although it might depend on what state the raised land is now in. Is it basically drained seabed, in which case it could be rather wet for a while or has it reverted to basically forest I suspect a lot of it would have been? Either way its a logistical desert, at least for a while which would help in defending but there could be some very nasty fighting trying to hold a German blitzkrieg, unless Hitler secure in his belief that Russia is about to fall decides to leave it to a winter campaign once Russia is defeated. The US army wouldn't be a great help at this point as its still pretty small, although conscription was started the previous autumn so they have had the best part of a year to start training up to 900,000 conscripts - see Conscription_in_the_United_States#World_War_II. However they have relatively few trained and equipped men to deploy abroad even if Roosevelt is able to get a dow on Germany or Japan still attacks as OTL and Hitler still declares war on the US. [The former is pretty certain probably but the latter I'm less certain will still occur.] Mind you with a lot of their production capacity gone, especially if the Baltic is now landlocked the German U boat campaign now depends on what's already at sea/based in France. Depending on how badly the RN ships and facilities are affected and given we were getting considerable success in the Atlantic at this point it might be a lot easier bring stuff and possibly troops across the Atlantic. It might help if there's been a general uplift of all the affected lands including Britain itself as that would mean there's something of a cliff, or at least slope between the old east coast and the new land. Looks like the Thames/Rhine union would be the southern flank of the defensive line while the northern end would be near the Wash. Depends on what Germany has spare from the east and what Hitler decides to do.
Possibly also if the Germans get established in the northern part of Doggerland a threat of amphibious [if they can find the shipping] or airbourne assault on the coast of NE England as the distances are quite close but they would need to establish bases and facilities there 1st.
So the only thing that helps the United Kingdom for now is that Germany has most of its army committed on the Eastern Front, wonder what they can spare for this new Western Front. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 24, 2019 10:24:14 GMT
Ah, I've messed up right here. I meant 1940 but I stupidly wrote 1941.
So that invalidates almost every point raised!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 10:35:22 GMT
Ah, I've messed up right here. I meant 1940 but I stupidly wrote 1941. So that invalidates almost every point raised! Would that before ore after Dunkirk James G. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 10:38:00 GMT
Ah, I've messed up right here. I meant 1940 but I stupidly wrote 1941. So that invalidates almost every point raised! Would that before ore after Dunkirk James G .
Well assuming its still August its after so Britain is totally stuffed. Even before the fall of France it opens up a new flank that would enable a land invasion of Britain and unless the allies did a hell of a lot better, which seems unlikely even a still active France wouldn't make a lot of difference.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 10:50:39 GMT
Would that before ore after Dunkirk James G . Well assuming its still August its after so Britain is totally stuffed. Even before the fall of France it opens up a new flank that would enable a land invasion of Britain and unless the allies did a hell of a lot better, which seems unlikely even a still active France wouldn't make a lot of difference.
So they have nothing to hold, lets called it the Ouse-Thames line. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 24, 2019 11:02:47 GMT
Well assuming its still August its after so Britain is totally stuffed. Even before the fall of France it opens up a new flank that would enable a land invasion of Britain and unless the allies did a hell of a lot better, which seems unlikely even a still active France wouldn't make a lot of difference.
So they have nothing to hold, lets called it the Ouse-Thames line.
Very little. We got most of the troops out of Dunkirk but virtually all their equipment was left behind. Plus that was still largely the relatively small pre-war army and the conscripts that had been recruited in the last year would have had even less.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2019 11:11:06 GMT
So they have nothing to hold, lets called it the Ouse-Thames line. Very little. We got most of the troops out of Dunkirk but virtually all their equipment was left behind. Plus that was still largely the relatively small pre-war army and the conscripts that had been recruited in the last year would have had even less.
Also the Royal Navy has not much to do in this war now, this will be a land war, something we have seen the Germans being good add. |
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jjohnson
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Post by jjohnson on Sept 15, 2020 16:31:59 GMT
If the only change at all is Doggerland is returned to above the sea, and if it's forest, in August 1940, I'm guessing that within a week or two, both Hitler and Churchill know of its existence and its uninhabited state, and will begin scrambling to get troops there. The British will be begging for more American aid or 'volunteers' to help claim the land, but if the Brits don't hurry with machinery and manpower, the Germans will likely blitzkrieg over it to take London within a year. They simply had more manpower at this point and a radicalized population.
After the war, if Doggerland remains, I think the UK, Denmark, and the Netherlands will all negotiate to claim it.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 16, 2020 10:45:29 GMT
If the only change at all is Doggerland is returned to above the sea, and if it's forest, in August 1940, I'm guessing that within a week or two, both Hitler and Churchill know of its existence and its uninhabited state, and will begin scrambling to get troops there. The British will be begging for more American aid or 'volunteers' to help claim the land, but if the Brits don't hurry with machinery and manpower, the Germans will likely blitzkrieg over it to take London within a year. They simply had more manpower at this point and a radicalized population. After the war, if Doggerland remains, I think the UK, Denmark, and the Netherlands will all negotiate to claim it.
That would assume there's an allied victory, which could be doubtful in this case. An August 40 POD would be a total disaster as Britain has committed to continuing the war so I doubt that Hitler would settle for any terms that didn't involve an Axis garrison and probably a pro-Nazi puppet government and Britain has no real military force to oppose the German army at this stage.
With the west secured Roosevelt has no ally to hold the Germans back and while its likely to take 2-3 years the Germans can now probably defeat the Soviets. Plus with probably control/domination of the ME although the logistics are dire this opens up another avenue of attack towards Baku and also will block any US aid via Persia. Not sure what Japan will do but its position is boosted.
The US will be secure and if there is a clash in the Pacific it will defeat Japan, although that would be tougher without the British empire. However your likely to have a sort of cold war situation. The US will definitely get nukes 1st but would they have the determination to actually launch a massive attack on the Nazi empire?
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