lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 7, 2020 17:26:45 GMT
Before Coral Sea as well Lexington is still in the US Order of Battle....
Regards,
What is the battleship Kasino, could it be Yamato, did the Americans in 1942 knew here name. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 7, 2020 17:41:25 GMT
What is the battleship Kasino, could it be Yamato, did the Americans in 1942 knew here name.
Might be speculation on the name. Whomever made that might have realized Yamato completed in December 1941, but might not have known her name...
Regards,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 7, 2020 18:42:34 GMT
What is the battleship Kasino, could it be Yamato, did the Americans in 1942 knew here name. Might be speculation on the name. Whomever made that might have realized Yamato completed in December 1941, but might not have known her name... Regards, \
Also Kadekuru and Nissin are two battleships who might be Musashi and Shinano. Also found this, as this is about the US navy evacuating before pearl Harbor, what if the Pearl Harbor fleet joins up with Enterprise and Lexington, but i fear that the time those two carriers link up with the US ships from pearl Harbor, the Japanese Kidō Butai might be long gone. Also will the Japanese still launch their 2nd wave if they notice the US navy has evacuated pearl Harbor and is now somewhere in the open sea. Pearl Harbor Attack, 7 December 1941 Carrier Locations
On 7 December 1941, the three Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Lexington (CV-2), and USS Saratoga(CV-3). Enterprise: On 28 November 1941, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel sent TF-8, consisting of Enterprise, the heavy cruisers Northampton(CA-26), Chester (CA-27), and Salt Lake City (CA-24) and nine destroyers under Vice Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., to ferry 12 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats of Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 211 to Wake Island. Upon completion of the mission on 4 December, TF-8 set course to return to Pearl Harbor. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found TF-8 about 215 miles west of Oahu. Lexington: On 5 December 1941, TF-12, formed around Lexington, under the command of Rear Admiral John H. Newton, sailed from Pearl to ferry 18 Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 231 to Midway Island. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found Lexington, heavy cruisers Chicago (CA-29), Portland (CA-33), and Astoria (CA-34), and five destroyers about 500 miles southeast of Midway. Saratoga: The Saratoga, having recently completed an overhaul at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Bremerton, Washington, reached NAS San Diego [North Island] late in the forenoon watch on 7 December. She was to embark her air group, as well as Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 221 and a cargo of miscellaneous airplanes to ferry to Pearl Harbor Yorktown (CV-5), Ranger (CV-4) and Wasp (CV-7), along with the aircraft escort vessel Long Island (AVG-1), were in the Atlantic Fleet; Hornet (CV-8), commissioned in late October 1941, had yet to carry out her shakedown. Yorktown would be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to be transferred to the Pacific, sailing on 16 December 1941. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 7, 2020 18:59:16 GMT
Very interesting, thanks for that. Mr Parshall doesn't mention that even if the Japanese had totally crushed the US CVs at Midway and then taken the island - which is far from certain - how difficult if not impossible it would have been for them to seriously invade Hawaii but that the Japanese were still thinking of such an operation as being possible shows how delusional even Yamamoto who is normally seen as one of the more knowledgeable Japanese military figures was by this stage.
Steve
Steve,
Consider the logistics of simply holding Midway. How many Japanese Freighters and tankers are going to be lost to US submarines just trying to supply the garrison there? And how many planes will be needed, when the island will undoubtedly be subject to daily visits from Hawaii based B-17s? Even with defective torpedoes, US subs will have a field day against Japanese logistics. If Japan takes Hawaii, it gets even worse because the supplies have to travel farther and are closer to US West Coast based submarines.
My thoughts,
Very true. Fully agree. Just don't think they could take it in the 1st place.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 7, 2020 19:09:30 GMT
Before Coral Sea as well Lexington is still in the US Order of Battle....
Regards,
Unless it was just after Coral Sea and some censorship was in place possible? I noticed that there are question marks around both the carriers of the 5th Squadron, i.e. Shōkaku and Zuikaku which suffered damage damage during that battle.
Which reminds me of something I thought of earlier. IIRC Parshall refers to the 4CV lost at Midway as the best of the Japanese carriers but nornally the newer Shōkaku's are considered the most capable. Unless possibly he thinks the Midway carriers, not being pretty new, had more experienced crews?
Steve
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 8, 2020 9:10:10 GMT
Also Kadekuru and Nissin are two battleships who might be Musashi and Shinano. Also found this, as this is about the US navy evacuating before pearl Harbor, what if the Pearl Harbor fleet joins up with Enterprise and Lexington, but i fear that the time those two carriers link up with the US ships from pearl Harbor, the Japanese Kidō Butai might be long gone. Also will the Japanese still launch their 2nd wave if they notice the US navy has evacuated pearl Harbor and is now somewhere in the open sea. Pearl Harbor Attack, 7 December 1941 Carrier Locations
On 7 December 1941, the three Pacific Fleet aircraft carriers were USS Enterprise (CV-6), USS Lexington (CV-2), and USS Saratoga(CV-3). Enterprise: On 28 November 1941, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel sent TF-8, consisting of Enterprise, the heavy cruisers Northampton(CA-26), Chester (CA-27), and Salt Lake City (CA-24) and nine destroyers under Vice Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., to ferry 12 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats of Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 211 to Wake Island. Upon completion of the mission on 4 December, TF-8 set course to return to Pearl Harbor. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found TF-8 about 215 miles west of Oahu. Lexington: On 5 December 1941, TF-12, formed around Lexington, under the command of Rear Admiral John H. Newton, sailed from Pearl to ferry 18 Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 231 to Midway Island. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found Lexington, heavy cruisers Chicago (CA-29), Portland (CA-33), and Astoria (CA-34), and five destroyers about 500 miles southeast of Midway. Saratoga: The Saratoga, having recently completed an overhaul at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Bremerton, Washington, reached NAS San Diego [North Island] late in the forenoon watch on 7 December. She was to embark her air group, as well as Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 221 and a cargo of miscellaneous airplanes to ferry to Pearl Harbor Yorktown (CV-5), Ranger (CV-4) and Wasp (CV-7), along with the aircraft escort vessel Long Island (AVG-1), were in the Atlantic Fleet; Hornet (CV-8), commissioned in late October 1941, had yet to carry out her shakedown. Yorktown would be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to be transferred to the Pacific, sailing on 16 December 1941.
The Japanese did complete the submarine tender Nisshin early in 1942. She was launched in 1939. It might be mistaken identity with her name. Also, take a look at this
specifically, page 12. It lists five new battleships of 40,000 tons completing, Nissin class....
I think I mentioned this link
to the Senior Chief, USN ships not at Pearl Harbor.
it's part of this
page
Regards,
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Jun 8, 2020 9:26:47 GMT
Unless it was just after Coral Sea and some censorship was in place possible? I noticed that there are question marks around both the carriers of the 5th Squadron, i.e. Shōkaku and Zuikaku which suffered damage damage during that battle.
Which reminds me of something I thought of earlier. IIRC Parshall refers to the 4CV lost at Midway as the best of the Japanese carriers but nornally the newer Shōkaku's are considered the most capable. Unless possibly he thinks the Midway carriers, not being pretty new, had more experienced crews?
Steve
I can't speak for Parshall, but I do think you're right in that he considered the four at Midway 'best' because of the experience of their crews. Even Hiryu had been in commission since 1939. They had been fighting off China, albeit against land-based targets, and had combat experience. Shokaku and Zuikaku were brand new in 1941.
That might be because of the IJN tendency to think of carriers and their air group as a single weapon. Zuikaku was undamaged after Coral Sea, but her air group was decimated, so she did not take part. I've often wondered if the Junyo and Hiyo air groups were assembled by the end of May 1942, and if Zuikaku could have carried some of those aircraft at Midway.
Regards,
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