British civil war ?

[lordroel]

Jun 25, 2020 19:38:05 GMT mach2 said:

I can imagine a well coordinated attack on Buckingham Palace, Whitehall, Parliament and the Square Mile would be sufficient to cause total chaos and in its place an authoritarian regime. 

Not something like what happened in the movie, London has fallen.

[James G]

Some thoughts about this London nuke idea:

It's highly implausible but it is not totally impossible.
It would have to be a breakaway group with a real commitment, willing to see themselves hunted until their dying days. Perhaps, if Britain did something really terrible in Ireland, a splinter IRA / INLA group would do it. They would have no support from the top though: not even look-the-other-way, nod-and-a-wink kind.
Their bomb will kill Irish people: London has a big Irish population. It is going to kill Americans too (plus many from other nationalities). This is something Irish mainstream and splinter groups always tried to avoid. Killing Irish people will be a disaster 'back home'; so too willing killing Americans as that means no more cash and likely a US desire to go after them too.
Only mad, mad fools from an Irish terror group would do anything like this. The situation would have to be something very dramatic... to say nothing of how to and where from to get a device.

[James G]

Jun 25, 2020 19:40:13 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 25, 2020 19:38:05 GMT mach2 said:

I can imagine a well coordinated attack on Buckingham Palace, Whitehall, Parliament and the Square Mile would be sufficient to cause total chaos and in its place an authoritarian regime. 

Not something like what happened in the movie, London has fallen.

TERRIBLE film.
Britain's PM ordered Londoners to stay in their houses, while the police and army disappeared. I kept thinking 'ah, that means the PM is in on this plot because no PM would be that stupid...' but then I just realised that the writers of that film were idiots who didn't give a damn about being sensible.

[lordroel]

Jun 25, 2020 19:56:41 GMT James G said:

Jun 25, 2020 19:40:13 GMT lordroel said:

Not something like what happened in the movie, London has fallen.

TERRIBLE film.
Britain's PM ordered Londoners to stay in their houses, while the police and army disappeared. I kept thinking 'ah, that means the PM is in on this plot because no PM would be that stupid...' but then I just realised that the writers of that film were idiots who didn't give a damn about being sensible.

Also the presidents who where killed, seemed they had almost no bodyguards to protect them.

[mach2]

I don't think it would be assassinate world leaders day, but the coup plotters would have to do something pretty huge to shift the country from a democracy to an authoritarian state. The assassination of Her Majesty (heaven forbid) would rock the country, but it would not be enough on its own.

I quite like the Olympus/London/Angel has Fallen series...

[lordroel]

Jun 26, 2020 3:52:26 GMT mach2 said:

I don't think it would be assassinate world leaders day, but the coup plotters would have to do something pretty huge to shift the country from a democracy to an authoritarian state. The assassination of Her Majesty (heaven forbid) would rock the country, but it would not be enough on its own.

I think assassination of Her Majesty would be the worst thing any coup plotters can do.

[stevep]

Jun 26, 2020 7:40:37 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 26, 2020 3:52:26 GMT mach2 said:

I don't think it would be assassinate world leaders day, but the coup plotters would have to do something pretty huge to shift the country from a democracy to an authoritarian state. The assassination of Her Majesty (heaven forbid) would rock the country, but it would not be enough on its own.

I think assassination of Her Majesty would be the worst thing any coup plotters can do.

  They would have to be absolutely certain the truth would never come out as the core of their planned support, right wing elements willing to back an authoritarian government would turn on them very rapidly if it came out they killed the queen.  Along with a hell of a lot of other people.

  I have a TL in which during a civil war the right wing 'government' organises the murder of the bulk of the royal family and blames it on their 'largely' socialist opponents.  [In part because King Charles is about to publicly criticise them about their brutal behaviour.]  Fortunately a younger son is smuggled out and when the truth comes out it turns the tide against the regime with a broad suave of the population being very hostile as a result. 

 

[lordroel]

Jun 26, 2020 9:32:58 GMT stevep said:

Jun 26, 2020 7:40:37 GMT lordroel said:

I think assassination of Her Majesty would be the worst thing any coup plotters can do.

  They would have to be absolutely certain the truth would never come out as the core of their planned support, right wing elements willing to back an authoritarian government would turn on them very rapidly if it came out they killed the queen.  Along with a hell of a lot of other people.

  I have a TL in which during a civil war the right wing 'government' organises the murder of the bulk of the royal family and blames it on their 'largely' socialist opponents.  [In part because King Charles is about to publicly criticise them about their brutal behaviour.]  Fortunately a younger son is smuggled out and when the truth comes out it turns the tide against the regime with a broad suave of the population being very hostile as a result. 

 

There is also a movie out these days called King Charles III, it has no coup in it.

[stevep]

Jun 26, 2020 10:04:03 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 26, 2020 9:32:58 GMT stevep said:

  They would have to be absolutely certain the truth would never come out as the core of their planned support, right wing elements willing to back an authoritarian government would turn on them very rapidly if it came out they killed the queen.  Along with a hell of a lot of other people.

  I have a TL in which during a civil war the right wing 'government' organises the murder of the bulk of the royal family and blames it on their 'largely' socialist opponents.  [In part because King Charles is about to publicly criticise them about their brutal behaviour.]  Fortunately a younger son is smuggled out and when the truth comes out it turns the tide against the regime with a broad suave of the population being very hostile as a result. 

 

There is also a movie out these days called King Charles III, it has no coup in it.

  Interesting and rather prophetic given Harry's distancing from the Royal Family OTL.  Not sure how I would feel in such a constitutional crisis as I could see Charle's position and such a bill would be very dangerous but him managing to block it would create potentially serious problems of its own.  Possibly a compromise, as a century back with the House of Lord's where if the monarch really feels something is that dangerous they can block it but there is a time limit on for how long.

  Hopefully in real life William and Kate wouldn't be that clumsy and eager for power.  Get the feeling their ending up as the villains in this.

[mach2]

Jun 26, 2020 7:40:37 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 26, 2020 3:52:26 GMT mach2 said:

I don't think it would be assassinate world leaders day, but the coup plotters would have to do something pretty huge to shift the country from a democracy to an authoritarian state. The assassination of Her Majesty (heaven forbid) would rock the country, but it would not be enough on its own.

I think assassination of Her Majesty would be the worst thing any coup plotters can do.

I think it would be a psychological thing and would play in to the narrative that if the Royal Family are not safe then what hope to ordinary Britons have...  That and most Britons have known no other Monarch so there would be a sense of what happens next after all Her Majesty is the constant in a world of change and that provides comfort for some. 

[mach2]

Jun 26, 2020 9:32:58 GMT stevep said:

Jun 26, 2020 7:40:37 GMT lordroel said:

I think assassination of Her Majesty would be the worst thing any coup plotters can do.

  They would have to be absolutely certain the truth would never come out as the core of their planned support, right wing elements willing to back an authoritarian government would turn on them very rapidly if it came out they killed the queen.  Along with a hell of a lot of other people.

  I have a TL in which during a civil war the right wing 'government' organises the murder of the bulk of the royal family and blames it on their 'largely' socialist opponents.  [In part because King Charles is about to publicly criticise them about their brutal behaviour.]  Fortunately a younger son is smuggled out and when the truth comes out it turns the tide against the regime with a broad suave of the population being very hostile as a result. 

 

I would hazard a guess that the coup plotters will have insulated themselves from any fallout. They are more likely to blame the IRA. 

[stevep]

Jun 26, 2020 16:45:08 GMT mach2 said:

Jun 26, 2020 7:40:37 GMT lordroel said:

I think assassination of Her Majesty would be the worst thing any coup plotters can do.

I think it would be a psychological thing and would play in to the narrative that if the Royal Family are not safe then what hope to ordinary Britons have...  That and most Britons have known no other Monarch so there would be a sense of what happens next after all Her Majesty is the constant in a world of change and that provides comfort for some. 

  That last is definitely a significant point for the reasons you say apart from any identification with the monarchy in general.

[mach2]

Jun 27, 2020 12:20:59 GMT stevep said:

Jun 26, 2020 16:45:08 GMT mach2 said:

I think it would be a psychological thing and would play in to the narrative that if the Royal Family are not safe then what hope to ordinary Britons have...  That and most Britons have known no other Monarch so there would be a sense of what happens next after all Her Majesty is the constant in a world of change and that provides comfort for some. 

  That last is definitely a significant point for the reasons you say apart from any identification with the monarchy in general.

You would be surprised. Following Diana's death there was a palpable sense of shock and grief. The country seemed to be going through the morning process with the Royals. 

[stevep]

Jul 19, 2020 5:05:40 GMT mach2 said:

Jun 27, 2020 12:20:59 GMT stevep said:

  That last is definitely a significant point for the reasons you say apart from any identification with the monarchy in general.

You would be surprised. Following Diana's death there was a palpable sense of shock and grief. The country seemed to be going through the morning process with the Royals. 

  mach2,

  I remember it well, as well as a degree of hostility towards the royals and especially Charles for what was seen as his bad treatment of her.  I probably said it probably but I meant as well as the attachment to the royals and especially the current queen.  A clear attack on her is likely to cause a very, very strong reaction, although it could be disorganised and misdirected depending on how well the attackers high their identity.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Jul 19, 2020 5:05:40 GMT mach2 said:

Jun 27, 2020 12:20:59 GMT stevep said:

  That last is definitely a significant point for the reasons you say apart from any identification with the monarchy in general.

You would be surprised. Following Diana's death there was a palpable sense of shock and grief. The country seemed to be going through the morning process with the Royals. 

But i doubt it would be enough to start a Civil War