British civil war ?

[kspence92]

I've always thought that a British Civil War breaking out during the 70s/80s would be fascinating (although unlikely) . Has anyone done a TL based on such a scenario before?

[stevep]

May 18, 2020 5:37:51 GMT kspence92 said:

I've always thought that a British Civil War breaking out during the 70s/80s would be fascinating (although unlikely) . Has anyone done a TL based on such a scenario before?

  Not that I'm aware of here.  Might have been something on AH with its larger membership and longer history.

  Agree its going to be highly unlikely.  You would need something really explosive to set it off. 

[lordroel]

May 18, 2020 11:40:06 GMT stevep said:

May 18, 2020 5:37:51 GMT kspence92 said:

I've always thought that a British Civil War breaking out during the 70s/80s would be fascinating (although unlikely) . Has anyone done a TL based on such a scenario before?

  Not that I'm aware of here.  Might have been something on AH with its larger membership and longer history.

  Agree its going to be highly unlikely.  You would need something really explosive to set it off. 

No republic movements that where active in the 70/80, ore even a Communist uprising supported on one side by the Soviets and the other side the royalist supported by the United States.

Also would the British civil war not technically be called the Fourth English Civil War if we go with this name English Civil War

[James G]

May 18, 2020 5:37:51 GMT kspence92 said:

I've always thought that a British Civil War breaking out during the 70s/80s would be fascinating (although unlikely) . Has anyone done a TL based on such a scenario before?

forcon and I wrote this just before the New Year: alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/2978/scimitars-whitehall-mini-forcon-james 
Not in that time period and not really what you mean. This is modern day and less of a real civil war.

A few years ago I tried to write an 80s UK civil war and quickly failed.
I don't have a link to that but I re-did some of my notes from that failed attempt and tried to make it presentable here: alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/2578/primary-armed-factions-british-civil 
The idea is that a failed Falklands War sees Thatcher's resignation, civil disorder, a 1984 election where a Coalition of the Losers forms, street opposition to the new Gov. failing to honour election promises, a Generals Putsch and thus civil war.
The idea is full of many holes though.

[mach2]

May 18, 2020 5:37:51 GMT kspence92 said:

I've always thought that a British Civil War breaking out during the 70s/80s would be fascinating (although unlikely) . Has anyone done a TL based on such a scenario before?

I don't know about a civil war, but a more authoritarian Britain could emerge from the turmoil of the 70s and 80s. This was a time of power outages, three day working weeks, terrorism, strikes and political and economic strife. 

[James G]

Jun 22, 2020 20:37:33 GMT mach2 said:

May 18, 2020 5:37:51 GMT kspence92 said:

I've always thought that a British Civil War breaking out during the 70s/80s would be fascinating (although unlikely) . Has anyone done a TL based on such a scenario before?

I don't know about a civil war, but a more authoritarian Britain could emerge from the turmoil of the 70s and 80s. This was a time of power outages, three day working weeks, terrorism, strikes and political and economic strife. 

It was something many thought possible at the time. There were the coup plots against Harold Wilson and private armies such as GB75. Perhaps nothing so dramatic as a conflict, but a strongman could emerge in the right circumstances and rule as a dictator-lite 'for the current emergency'.
Something really dramatic would need to bring that about though.

[lordroel]

Jun 23, 2020 17:37:49 GMT James G said:

Jun 22, 2020 20:37:33 GMT mach2 said:

I don't know about a civil war, but a more authoritarian Britain could emerge from the turmoil of the 70s and 80s. This was a time of power outages, three day working weeks, terrorism, strikes and political and economic strife. 

Something really dramatic would need to bring that about though.

A nuclear terrorist attack that destroys London, a high ranking British military officer declaring Martial Law ore what ever the British have, then of course the rump parliament made up of survivors of the House of Lords
and House of Commons try to counter that and then we have on one side the (inset name here) faction and the other side the parliament faction in a British Civil War.

[James G]

Jun 23, 2020 18:33:31 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 23, 2020 17:37:49 GMT James G said:

Something really dramatic would need to bring that about though.

A nuclear terrorist attack that destroys London, a high ranking British military officer declaring Martial Law ore what ever the British have, then of course the rump parliament made up of survivors of the House of Lords
and House of Commons try to counter that and then we have on one side the (inset name here) faction and the other side the parliament faction in a British Civil War.

That would work. There's a story of mine over on ah.com, the first fiction I ever wrote for public consumption (and it's not a war story), with an attack on Parliament but without nukes.
Its called 'The Third Attempt' - reference to the two previous failed coup plots against Wilson - and I'd post it here but I have no access to the Writer's Forum there nor it on a USB stick anywhere.

[lordroel]

Jun 23, 2020 18:39:14 GMT James G said:

Jun 23, 2020 18:33:31 GMT lordroel said:

A nuclear terrorist attack that destroys London, a high ranking British military officer declaring Martial Law ore what ever the British have, then of course the rump parliament made up of survivors of the House of Lords
and House of Commons try to counter that and then we have on one side the (inset name here) faction and the other side the parliament faction in a British Civil War.

That would work. There's a story of mine over on ah.com, the first fiction I ever wrote for public consumption (and it's not a war story), with an attack on Parliament but without nukes.
Its called 'The Third Attempt' - reference to the two previous failed coup plots against Wilson - and I'd post it here but I have no access to the Writer's Forum there nor it on a USB stick anywhere.

See PM James G,

[mach2]

Jun 23, 2020 17:37:49 GMT James G said:

Jun 22, 2020 20:37:33 GMT mach2 said:

I don't know about a civil war, but a more authoritarian Britain could emerge from the turmoil of the 70s and 80s. This was a time of power outages, three day working weeks, terrorism, strikes and political and economic strife. 

It was something many thought possible at the time. There were the coup plots against Harold Wilson and private armies such as GB75. Perhaps nothing so dramatic as a conflict, but a strongman could emerge in the right circumstances and rule as a dictator-lite 'for the current emergency'.
Something really dramatic would need to bring that about though.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could come forward on a platform of law and order. We have seen, in the not too distant past, that political parties can appear from absolutely nowhere and have a massive influence on the course of events. 

In the 70s society was breaking down. Callaghan was 'ousted' in 1979 following a difficult few months that became known as the Winter of Discontent. This nationwide strike saw rubbish piling up in the streets and reports that alleged our dead we going unburied. The 70s also saw the rise of domestic terrorism in England. The IRA had been active for many years, but in the 70s they reorganised and split in to cells to operate in England in order to become harder to detect.


In 1984 the Conservative Party conference was taking place in Brighton. Senior Government figures, including Prime Minister Thatcher, Party members and Tory MPs were at the Grand Brighton Hotel in the city on 12 October 1984. The Provisional Irish Republican Army had planted a time bomb (though to be 20lb, which was small bomb by IRA standards). It's purpose assassinate the Prime Minister and take out the Cabinet. The bomb had been placed under a bath in a room five stories up from the PM's room. The detonation brought down a five ton chimney stack and sent it crashing through the building in to the basement. The PM and her husband escaped being injured, the blast had damaged her bathroom but left the sitting room and bedroom untouched. Unfortunately five people, including a sitting Conservative MP, were killed and 31 people injured. Mrs Thatcher's response caught the IRA off guard. She was unusually calm and her measured approach won her universal admiration and her personal approval rating went skyward. 

Daily Telegraph journalist, David Hughes, called the bombing "the most audacious attack on a British Government since the Gunpowder Plot". 

[mach2]

Jun 23, 2020 18:33:31 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 23, 2020 17:37:49 GMT James G said:

Something really dramatic would need to bring that about though.

A nuclear terrorist attack that destroys London, a high ranking British military officer declaring Martial Law ore what ever the British have, then of course the rump parliament made up of survivors of the House of Lords
and House of Commons try to counter that and then we have on one side the (inset name here) faction and the other side the parliament faction in a British Civil War.

I don't know if the IRA were capable of carrying out such a plan let alone getting their hands on nuclear material, but that said in 1993 the Provisional Irish Republican Army detonated a massive truck bomb in Bishopsgate, London. The PIRA has stolen a dumper truck from a town in Staffordshire and driven it to the capital. As was the custom someone always phoned the Police and gave a code word. Officers were already looking in to the truck and the code word had been given one hour before the detonation so they were able to evacuate people. The truck had been parked outside the HSBC building on Bishopsgate. The resulting blast was so powerful that it gouged a 15 foot wide crater in to the street sending a mushroom cloud up in to the sky above the city. The damage was widespread with up to 1.5 million square feet of office space badly effected. The blast radius was up to five hundred metres. 

The IRA had foreign connections in Colombia, USA, Libya, Spain, Bosnia and Slovakia so it is possible that they could get their hands on a small amount to create a nuclear device. Planting it in the Square Mile would cause massive damage not only to the city, but to the British economy. A large percentage of our economy relies on the financial sector. The subsequent fallout would also merit evacuations across a large area of south east England. If the PM had been evacuated prior to the explosion then he or she would be taken to a secret bunker codenamed TURNSTILE located to the west of the town of Corsham. The existence of the building had been declassified at the end of the Cold War. It was a large complex capable of housing 4,000 people, with communications, medical facilities, accommodations, kitchens and canteens etc. 

We do have martial law in the United Kingdom and who is to say that people would not be plotting to remove the PM in order to bring about military rule. A secret bunker a coup plot and plenty of armed men. Makes you wonder... 

[stevep]

Jun 24, 2020 18:26:41 GMT mach2 said:

Jun 23, 2020 18:33:31 GMT lordroel said:

A nuclear terrorist attack that destroys London, a high ranking British military officer declaring Martial Law ore what ever the British have, then of course the rump parliament made up of survivors of the House of Lords
and House of Commons try to counter that and then we have on one side the (inset name here) faction and the other side the parliament faction in a British Civil War.

I don't know if the IRA were capable of carrying out such a plan let alone getting their hands on nuclear material, but that said in 1993 the Provisional Irish Republican Army detonated a massive truck bomb in Bishopsgate, London. The PIRA has stolen a dumper truck from a town in Staffordshire and driven it to the capital. As was the custom someone always phoned the Police and gave a code word. Officers were already looking in to the truck and the code word had been given one hour before the detonation so they were able to evacuate people. The truck had been parked outside the HSBC building on Bishopsgate. The resulting blast was so powerful that it gouged a 15 foot wide crater in to the street sending a mushroom cloud up in to the sky above the city. The damage was widespread with up to 1.5 million square feet of office space badly effected. The blast radius was up to five hundred metres. 

The IRA had foreign connections in Colombia, USA, Libya, Spain, Bosnia and Slovakia so it is possible that they could get their hands on a small amount to create a nuclear device. Planting it in the Square Mile would cause massive damage not only to the city, but to the British economy. A large percentage of our economy relies on the financial sector. The subsequent fallout would also merit evacuations across a large area of south east England. If the PM had been evacuated prior to the explosion then he or she would be taken to a secret bunker codenamed TURNSTILE located to the west of the town of Corsham. The existence of the building had been declassified at the end of the Cold War. It was a large complex capable of housing 4,000 people, with communications, medical facilities, accommodations, kitchens and canteens etc. 

We do have martial law in the United Kingdom and who is to say that people would not be plotting to remove the PM in order to bring about military rule. A secret bunker a coup plot and plenty of armed men. Makes you wonder... 

  mach2,

  I don't think the IRA would be that stupid, even if they were given a device by some 'supplier'.  It would hugely hurt Britain but also make the IRA target No. 1 by every security service in the west and probably also elsewhere as well as a terrorist with a nuclear weapon would be seen as a threat to everybody.  Their brutal and corrupt but I don't think their that stupid.  The hammer would come down hard and there is likely to be widespread violence in Ulster.  Which since the IRA did so much to make sure the police and local security forces were overwhelmingly Protestant, is likely to go very badly for the Catholic minority. 

  Steve

[mach2]

Jun 24, 2020 20:04:57 GMT stevep said:

Jun 24, 2020 18:26:41 GMT mach2 said:

I don't know if the IRA were capable of carrying out such a plan let alone getting their hands on nuclear material, but that said in 1993 the Provisional Irish Republican Army detonated a massive truck bomb in Bishopsgate, London. The PIRA has stolen a dumper truck from a town in Staffordshire and driven it to the capital. As was the custom someone always phoned the Police and gave a code word. Officers were already looking in to the truck and the code word had been given one hour before the detonation so they were able to evacuate people. The truck had been parked outside the HSBC building on Bishopsgate. The resulting blast was so powerful that it gouged a 15 foot wide crater in to the street sending a mushroom cloud up in to the sky above the city. The damage was widespread with up to 1.5 million square feet of office space badly effected. The blast radius was up to five hundred metres. 

The IRA had foreign connections in Colombia, USA, Libya, Spain, Bosnia and Slovakia so it is possible that they could get their hands on a small amount to create a nuclear device. Planting it in the Square Mile would cause massive damage not only to the city, but to the British economy. A large percentage of our economy relies on the financial sector. The subsequent fallout would also merit evacuations across a large area of south east England. If the PM had been evacuated prior to the explosion then he or she would be taken to a secret bunker codenamed TURNSTILE located to the west of the town of Corsham. The existence of the building had been declassified at the end of the Cold War. It was a large complex capable of housing 4,000 people, with communications, medical facilities, accommodations, kitchens and canteens etc. 

We do have martial law in the United Kingdom and who is to say that people would not be plotting to remove the PM in order to bring about military rule. A secret bunker a coup plot and plenty of armed men. Makes you wonder... 

  mach2 ,

  I don't think the IRA would be that stupid, even if they were given a device by some 'supplier'.  It would hugely hurt Britain but also make the IRA target No. 1 by every security service in the west and probably also elsewhere as well as a terrorist with a nuclear weapon would be seen as a threat to everybody.  Their brutal and corrupt but I don't think their that stupid.  The hammer would come down hard and there is likely to be widespread violence in Ulster.  Which since the IRA did so much to make sure the police and local security forces were overwhelmingly Protestant, is likely to go very badly for the Catholic minority. 

  Steve

The IRA may have been a terrorist group but they did warn the authorities before detonating their bombs (apart from Omagh) so I think you are right that they wouldn't do something like that. That said they were capable of using conventional devices to cause massive damage, kill and maim. It wouldn't take much for a coup plotter to use the IRA for their advantage though... 

[stevep]

Jun 24, 2020 21:17:15 GMT mach2 said:

Jun 24, 2020 20:04:57 GMT stevep said:

  mach2 ,

  I don't think the IRA would be that stupid, even if they were given a device by some 'supplier'.  It would hugely hurt Britain but also make the IRA target No. 1 by every security service in the west and probably also elsewhere as well as a terrorist with a nuclear weapon would be seen as a threat to everybody.  Their brutal and corrupt but I don't think their that stupid.  The hammer would come down hard and there is likely to be widespread violence in Ulster.  Which since the IRA did so much to make sure the police and local security forces were overwhelmingly Protestant, is likely to go very badly for the Catholic minority. 

  Steve

The IRA may have been a terrorist group but they did warn the authorities before detonating their bombs (apart from Omagh) so I think you are right that they wouldn't do something like that. That said they were capable of using conventional devices to cause massive damage, kill and maim. It wouldn't take much for a coup plotter to use the IRA for their advantage though... 

  Not infrequently to encourage evacuation to an area where there was another bomb don't forget. 

  Yes there were psychos who might have tried something if someone gave them a nuke but its unlikely this would happen without others in the organisation finding out and realising this would be very, very dangerous for them.  Like being caught by an enraged mob and lynched or simply torn apart, probably with the security forces standing by and watching.

  There could well be some group extreme and basically evil enough to try and manipulate the IRA or some other terrorist group into causing such a disaster but I suspect its unlikely to work.  Also while there are groups on both left and right that might be that deranged how well could they keep that secret.  Have to be at least until their securely in power so they could use the instruments of state to suppress any questions raised but what are the chances that there would be a leak beforehand?

PS  Thinking about it there is one obvious alternative, especially for a right wing plot.  'Assist' a terrorist attack against some very important symbol of the country, most likely the queen.  That could give the desired level of outrage without massive direct destruction and with less chance of an internal leak from someone with any morals.  Plus it doesn't require somehow getting hold of a small nuclear device and transferring it to a terrorist group.

[mach2]

Jun 25, 2020 8:12:12 GMT stevep said:

Jun 24, 2020 21:17:15 GMT mach2 said:

The IRA may have been a terrorist group but they did warn the authorities before detonating their bombs (apart from Omagh) so I think you are right that they wouldn't do something like that. That said they were capable of using conventional devices to cause massive damage, kill and maim. It wouldn't take much for a coup plotter to use the IRA for their advantage though... 

  Not infrequently to encourage evacuation to an area where there was another bomb don't forget. 

  Yes there were psychos who might have tried something if someone gave them a nuke but its unlikely this would happen without others in the organisation finding out and realising this would be very, very dangerous for them.  Like being caught by an enraged mob and lynched or simply torn apart, probably with the security forces standing by and watching.

  There could well be some group extreme and basically evil enough to try and manipulate the IRA or some other terrorist group into causing such a disaster but I suspect its unlikely to work.  Also while there are groups on both left and right that might be that deranged how well could they keep that secret.  Have to be at least until their securely in power so they could use the instruments of state to suppress any questions raised but what are the chances that there would be a leak beforehand?

PS  Thinking about it there is one obvious alternative, especially for a right wing plot.  'Assist' a terrorist attack against some very important symbol of the country, most likely the queen.  That could give the desired level of outrage without massive direct destruction and with less chance of an internal leak from someone with any morals.  Plus it doesn't require somehow getting hold of a small nuclear device and transferring it to a terrorist group.

I only remember the Real IRA deliberately giving the wrong code word which meant the Police evacuating the people directly in to the path of the bomb. The IRA were on MI5's RADAR so it would probably be impossible for them to transport nuclear material or even the finished bomb in to England - they would have to have someone on the inside. 

I can imagine a well coordinated attack on Buckingham Palace, Whitehall, Parliament and the Square Mile would be sufficient to cause total chaos and in its place an authoritarian regime.