lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2020 17:19:38 GMT
Could you add some text to it to give as more insight to what we click on. Also had tried to search for this plane in Indonesia service but found nothing, seems you did, nice.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 7, 2020 17:20:56 GMT
Say what the will about the Soviets, they built some damn good looking aircraft To bad this plane was a reason why the Doorman was a sitting duck. |
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archibald
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The PRC was standing on the edge of an abyss. And Mao said "let's make a Great Leap Forward"
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Post by archibald on Aug 8, 2020 5:58:27 GMT
Well by Tom Clancy standards, even Nimitz can be a sitting duck against Tu-16s (if used intelligently) so no shame...
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 8, 2020 8:05:09 GMT
Well by Tom Clancy standards, even Nimitz can be a sitting duck against Tu-16s (if used intelligently) so no shame... Would the Soviets sell them the KS-1 Komet if Indonesia would buy the Tu-4. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 8, 2020 11:13:35 GMT
June 3, 1957 Moscow, Russian Soviet Socialist Republic A formal, wide ranging treaty is reached between Indonesia and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics whereby the USSR agrees to provide technical assistance and information on oil exploration and production as well as arms to aid Indonesia in modernizing their economy and armed forces. In return, the USSR will receive preferential status for trade goods such as oil, natural gas, tin, copper and rubber. The groundwork for this treaty was laid during the May 1st meeting between Indonesian President Sukarno and the Soviet Ambassador to Indonesia, D.A. Zhukov. In return for these concessions to the Soviet Union, the USSR had agreed to support Indonesia diplomatically and militarily. Their use of their Security Council Veto to kill the resolution against Indonesia the previous month had been a "good faith" gesture to seal the deal. Due to the ongoing transition in Indonesia from the "Liberal Democracy" system to President Sukarno's "Guided Democracy" system, President Sukarno himself is not in attendance and the agreement is signed by his Foreign Minister, Subandrio. An official State Visit by President Sukarno is proposed by Soviet Foreign Minster Andrei Gromyko to take place later in the year. Mr Subandrio also suggests a return visit to Indonesia by Premier Bulganin. The rapid negotiations for the new treaty take some in the West by surprise, though both the American and British Intelligence services had predicted Indonesia's move further into the Soviet camp more than a month earlier. In the halls of the United States Department of State and the Central Intelligence Agency, analysts and regional experts are hurriedly consulted and called into meetings to provide suggestions on moving Indonesia out of the Soviet Camp.
Would the Soviets want oil and gas from Indonesia? Its a major producer itself and also has access to Romanian supplies. I can see the other products, especially rubber being useful but this element seems a bit unlikely.
Can see China benefiting a lot more from such a trade as I don't think it had developed its own resources yet. Plus, while there might be concerns about the influence of the Chinese minority in Indonesia, who controlled a lot of the countries commerce IIRC at this stage also Indonesia might be happier with close links with China as another Asian power rather than an European one such as Russia.
Steve
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 8, 2020 23:59:17 GMT
June 3, 1957 Moscow, Russian Soviet Socialist Republic A formal, wide ranging treaty is reached between Indonesia and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics whereby the USSR agrees to provide technical assistance and information on oil exploration and production as well as arms to aid Indonesia in modernizing their economy and armed forces. In return, the USSR will receive preferential status for trade goods such as oil, natural gas, tin, copper and rubber. The groundwork for this treaty was laid during the May 1st meeting between Indonesian President Sukarno and the Soviet Ambassador to Indonesia, D.A. Zhukov. In return for these concessions to the Soviet Union, the USSR had agreed to support Indonesia diplomatically and militarily. Their use of their Security Council Veto to kill the resolution against Indonesia the previous month had been a "good faith" gesture to seal the deal. Due to the ongoing transition in Indonesia from the "Liberal Democracy" system to President Sukarno's "Guided Democracy" system, President Sukarno himself is not in attendance and the agreement is signed by his Foreign Minister, Subandrio. An official State Visit by President Sukarno is proposed by Soviet Foreign Minster Andrei Gromyko to take place later in the year. Mr Subandrio also suggests a return visit to Indonesia by Premier Bulganin. The rapid negotiations for the new treaty take some in the West by surprise, though both the American and British Intelligence services had predicted Indonesia's move further into the Soviet camp more than a month earlier. In the halls of the United States Department of State and the Central Intelligence Agency, analysts and regional experts are hurriedly consulted and called into meetings to provide suggestions on moving Indonesia out of the Soviet Camp.
Would the Soviets want oil and gas from Indonesia? Its a major producer itself and also has access to Romanian supplies. I can see the other products, especially rubber being useful but this element seems a bit unlikely.
Can see China benefiting a lot more from such a trade as I don't think it had developed its own resources yet. Plus, while there might be concerns about the influence of the Chinese minority in Indonesia, who controlled a lot of the countries commerce IIRC at this stage also Indonesia might be happier with close links with China as another Asian power rather than an European one such as Russia.
Steve
I have them going for a bit of both, actually. They're going to build ties with China as well as with the USSR. And they're spreading their purchases out as well. They've ordered MiG-15UTIs (CS-102) from Czechoslovakia and MiG-17Fs (F-5) from China. Indonesia is trying to keep from becoming too dependant on just one country. Why Russia wants the oil and natural gas is covered in an update that's on its way |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 9, 2020 0:13:43 GMT
June 5, 1957
Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands
Indonesia's increasingly close ties to the USSR and the PRC, along with the complete breakdown in negotiations over West New Guinea, begin to alarm the government of Prime Minister Willem Drees Sr. Dr Joseph Luns, the Foreign Minister orders his staff to asses the status of any and all potential flash points with their former colony. While it is left unspoken, the focus of the entire Ministry is to be on West New Guinea. In the Ministry of Defense, Cornelis "Kees" Staf quietly begins a review of military options should the disagreement over West New Guinea escalate. A committee is formed to present recommendations to Minister Staf over the best ways to defend West New Guinea. They are given a deadline of two weeks.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 9, 2020 0:14:04 GMT
June 8, 1957
Langley, VA, USA
The Central Intelligence Agency was busy analyzing the fallout from Indonesia's move deeper into the Soviet camp. Multiple options were reviewed. Everything from diplomatic bribery to military invasion was on the table. Indonesia's shift towards the USSR was causing massive ripples throughout the diplomatic community and the intelligence services. One of the primary concerns was Japan moving closer to the Soviets due to feeling isolated with their largest neighbor showing distinct signs of going Communist.
Over the following days, every option is examined in detail. Experts from the State and Defense Departments are called in and consulted. The Special Activities Division outlines multiple operations that would, in it's opinion, be feasible. These options, along with the opinions of the State Department and the Department of Defense are presented to the CIA Director on the twenty-first of June.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 9, 2020 0:14:33 GMT
June 15, 1957
Washington D.C., USA
The interim report on the damage to Independence is delivered to Admiral Burke and Secretary of the Navy Thomas Gates. While the full incident report would take many more months to complete, the damage assessment was done. Independence was a total loss. There had originally been some hope that she could be salvaged, but the bean counters had put an end to that. By the time all the fire and water damaged equipment was removed, new equipment purchased and installed, the heat stressed steel cut away and replaced and the very likely increased maintenance costs over her projected life span, it would be cheaper to cancel her and order a replacement instead.
The Navy had been planning a second Enterprise class nuclear carrier to be laid down in 1960, but perhaps, with the assistance of Secretary Gates and Neil McElroy, the Secretary of Defense they could convince Congress to authorize both Enterprise and her sister together in Fiscal Year 1958 instead. While a nuclear carrier would be vastly more expensive up front, they were projected to have so many advantages over conventionally powered carriers that they would be more than worth it. That, combined with retaining Lake Champlain, would solve at least one of his problems with the fleet.
While this line of reasoning was partly wishful thinking and partly planning for the future, one thing that Admiral Burke did know for sure was that Congress would not be happy to learn to Independence was a lost cause and would have to be broken up on the ways.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2020 18:58:32 GMT
June 15, 1957 While this line of reasoning was partly wishful thinking and partly planning for the future, one thing that Admiral Burke did know for sure was that Congress would not be happy to learn to Independence was a lost cause and would have to be broken up on the ways. Loosing money to something that never entered into service is never a good thing, Congress will most likely spend money in a investigation to why this could happen. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 9, 2020 21:05:16 GMT
June 15, 1957 While this line of reasoning was partly wishful thinking and partly planning for the future, one thing that Admiral Burke did know for sure was that Congress would not be happy to learn to Independence was a lost cause and would have to be broken up on the ways. Loosing money to something that never entered into service is never a good thing, Congress will most likely spend money in a investigation to why this could happen. True. But that money won't come from the Navy's budget. |
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 10, 2020 15:27:27 GMT
June 18, 1957
Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands
The Committee for the Defense of West New Guinea presents their formal findings to the Defense Minister and the heads of the armed forces. They present three sets of options. A "Best Defense" option which gives no consideration to cost or other commitments. A "Bare Minimum" option which weighs other potential flash points as being more important and assigns West New Guinea the smallest possible force suitable only to serve as a trip wire deterrent. And a compromise option, which gives West New Guinea a credible defensive force, with regular deployments of a carrier as show of force, while still recognizing financial constraints and commitments elsewhere.
Predictably, the "Best Defense" option, which recommended the permanent deployment of a light cruiser and five destroyers (along with regular deployments of an aircraft carrier and it's escorts), a wing of air defense fighters and an entire regiment of ground troops is discarded out of hand as being unworkable. The "Bare Minimum" option receives far more study. While the forces would certainly be weak, they should be at least equal to anything Indonesia could deploy to the theater. And as a deterrent, they would be marvelously effective as they were not being sent to fight a war, but to prevent one by showing the Netherlands commitment to the defense of New Guinea.
After hours of meetings and studying the proposals, Minister Staf decides to recommend that the Netherlands permanently deploy an air defense fighter squadron and rotate two destroyers or frigates to West New Guinea. While he would have liked to deploy a battalion of Marines as well, the Netherlands simply did not have the available manpower to spare. Instead, a volunteer para-military force would be raised from the locals and trained by a company of Marines with a Marine Colonel in overall command. He would also go on to recommend the occasional deployment of the Karel Doorman to the Far East once her modernization was completed. The bare minimum option had won out.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 10, 2020 15:27:58 GMT
June 19, 1957
Balikpapan, Borneo, Indonesia
The Soviet tanker Alatyr` ties up at the Permina oil loading facility and begins loading the first shipment of oil sold to the USSR under the new trade agreement. Though BPM, Caltex and Stanvac had all protested the below market sale of oil to the USSR, their objections were overruled by Lieutenant-General Ibnu Sutowo, the head of Permina. The three firms were also not so subtly threatened with having their minority stakes in the company revoked if they failed to fall in line.
This triggers a fresh round of formal protests from the three companies and their receptive governments. While the protests are acknowledged by the various Embassies involved, they fall on deaf ears at the Department of Foreign Affairs in Jakarta. The Government of Indonesia was done listening to colonial overlords.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 10, 2020 15:29:06 GMT
June 20, 1957
Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands
Prime Minister Drees gives formal approval to the Ministry of Defence's plan to reinforce West New Guinea. The destroyers Gelderland and Friesland are ordered to prepare to deploy for six and eight months respectively to New Guinea. Some consideration had been given by the committee to deploying several ships permanently to West New Guinea, but cost and the fact that the island lacked the necessary port facilities to support warships long term meant no ships would be permanently stationed there. It was hoped instead that the rotation of destroyers and frigates to the area would prevent there being a gap in coverage.
Along with the two destroyers being sent, 322 Squadron of the Royal Netherlands Air Force was also given movement orders to transfer to New Guinea. The squadron was chosen as they had previously served in the East Indies and New Guinea. However, the deployment to New Guinea meant that the planned conversion of the squadron to the Hawker Hunter from their existing Gloster Meteor F.8s had to be postponed. Given the isolated nature of West New Guinea from the rest of the Netherlands, the lower maintenance requirements of the Meteor were seen as outweighing the performance advantages of the Hunter. The decision to retain the Meteor was controversial as the aircraft was obviously obsolete. It was however still hoped that the squadron could be reequipped with the more advanced fighter within a year or two once infrastructure on the island was improved to support the newer aircraft.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Aug 10, 2020 15:29:46 GMT
June 21, 1957
Langley, VA, USA
The Deputy Director of Plans and head of the Special Activities Division, Frank Wisner, was in a closed door meeting with Alan Dulles, the Director of Central Intelligence. All of the proposed operations were laid out before Director Dulles with a particular emphasis on destabilizing the economy of Indonesia and supporting a coup by the Army. The Indonesian officers to be supported had no love of the government in Jakarta and wished to break away. However it was thought that with the proper amount of support, they could be persuaded to instead topple the government of President Sukarno and seize power for themselves while bringing Indonesia back into the Western Camp.
After spending the day briefing the DCI, the decision was made, pending approval from Robert Cutler the National Security Advisor and from President Eisenhower, to begin providing support to Colonels Ahmad Hussein and Ventje Sumual to coup President Sukarno. Not only would they provide intelligence and training, the CIA would also offer military equipment to aide in the struggle. Approval for the operation from the White House arrived just before midnight.
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