Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[lordroel]

Dec 11, 2021 18:15:06 GMT ssgtc said:

Dec 11, 2021 13:55:42 GMT sandyman said:

I love this story and each and every update well done. I do hope that there is some Carrier action it would be interesting to see how the Royal Navy planes stck up against the Russian ones.

Well, the Sea Hawks and Sea Venoms on Albion are BADLY outclassed by the Indonesians. Even their bombers have something like a 100MPH speed advantage on them. The Hunters that the RAF has are a much more even match. And I'd put my money on the RAF there

Even outclassed fighters can be deadly, it depends on who is flying them.

[ssgtc]

Dec 11, 2021 18:50:06 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 11, 2021 18:15:06 GMT ssgtc said:

Well, the Sea Hawks and Sea Venoms on Albion are BADLY outclassed by the Indonesians. Even their bombers have something like a 100MPH speed advantage on them. The Hunters that the RAF has are a much more even match. And I'd put my money on the RAF there

Even outclassed fighters can be deadly, it depends on who is flying them.

True. As the Indonesian Air Force found out the hard way. But having learned that lesson, they are very unlikely to allow themselves to be put in such a situation again.

[lordroel]

Dec 8, 2021 0:48:54 GMT ssgtc said:

February 15, 1959
Subic Bay, Zambales, Philippines

 with HMS Albion, 

So here fixed-wing complement consist of this then: 

806 sqn. 8 Sea Hawk FGA6 Fighter-Attack.

894 sqn. 12 Sea Venom FAW21 Night/All Weather Fighter.

849 sqn. D flt. 4 Skyraider AEW1 Airborne Early Warning.

815 sqn. 8 Whirlwind HAS7 Helicopter Anti-Submarine Warfare.

Ships Flight 1 Dragonfly HR5 Helicopter Search and Rescue.

Also found this of HMS Albion (R07) operations during a visit in New Zealand (1959):

[ssgtc]

February, 16, 1959
Banda Sea, Western Pacific


Yorktown was not the only ship to hear the contact report from Lightning 108. USS Frank Knox (DDR-742) was listening too. Commander John Swank, her Commanding Officer, smiled grimly at the report. Admiral Colestock had positioned his ship directly on the most likely threat axis, and the Indonesians had obligingly done exactly what he thought they might. This was the mission that his ship was designed for. His Gearing class destroyer had been modified as a radar picket destroyer some ten years earlier.


It also made the most sense from an operational standpoint for his ship to be detached from the main formation. Until two days ago, she had been attached to the fast carrier attack group centered on Bon Homme Richard. But given where Yorktown was being sent, orders had come in detaching her from Bonnie Dick and assigning her to the Fighting Lady instead. Captain Swank's ship had been operating under a total radio and radar blackout, but his orders, which had come straight from Admiral Colestock, were to light off his ship's air search radars as soon as a contact report was made. Well, he had the report now. Captain Swank took a deep breath and gave the order. In moments, his ship went from unsuspected and undetected to broadcasting her presence for anyone to hear.


He could feel the tension in his gut ratcheting up with every minute that his ship was radiating. For long minutes there was nothing to be seen on the radar screens. In fact it would be nearly an hour before anything showed up on the screens in CIC. But when the targets did show up, Captain Swank and his crew were galvanized into a series of rapid actions.


As the first blips showed up on the radar screen, his men began calling out the contacts. Others of his men began updating the plot in CIC to keep track of everything. After a few hurried consultations with his intelligence officer and air warfare officer, the decision was made that, given the altitude, speed, and number of contacts, this could only be one thing: the Indonesian response to their transit. Within the next minute a message went out, "Viper calling Steamboat. Viper calling Steamboat. Raid warning! Multiple inbound bogies! Estimate zero-six contacts! Heading zero-seven-zero, speed five-two-five knots at angels five. Six-five miles south of my position. Repeat. Viper calling Steamboat..."

----------------

Onboard Yorktown, the inbound raid was quickly plotted. While the inbound aircraft had not yet been identified, it was a safe bet that they were Badgers. So much for CIA estimates, Captain Bedell thought ruefully. Based on their current plot, the inbound Badgers wouldn't come directly over the formation, but they would certainly come close enough to find the formation on their surface search radar. What worried Captain Bedell was whether or not the Indonesian Badgers were armed with Kennel anti-ship missiles. There was no information on whether the Soviets had sold the missile to Indonesia or not. So far, there had been no proof that Indonesia had them, but Captain Bedell hadn't risen to command an aircraft carrier by taking foolish risks.


Picking up a shipboard phone, Captain Bedell called PriFly from his post in CIC and gave the order everyone was prepared for, but hoped would not come, "Launch the fighters. Inbound air raid, bearing one-nine-five, speed five-two-five knots at angels five."


On the flight deck, canopies came down on the four Banshee fighters on the Fighting Lady's deck. Even while the canopies were still closing on the fighters, their Westinghouse engines were lighting off. Four minutes and twenty seconds after the order had been given, the first F2H-3, flown by Lieutenant Commander Burttschell, was shot off the port catapult and into the sky. The Banshee on the starboard cat joined him five seconds later. Before the two fighters had even finished their clearing turns, their two squadron mates were already being maneuvered into place on the cats. The two remaining Banshees on board joined them in the air two minutes later.


As the four Banshees screamed like their namesake to try and intercept the inbound planes, currently assumed to be missile armed Badgers, they were given vectors to their targets by Viper, who was still tracking them on her radar. The radar picket destroyer was fulfilling her mission admirably. As yet, the four Banshees had yet to activate their own radars in the hope that they would be able to bushwhack the inbound bombers when they came in range. It was hoped that the bombers would turn back once they detected the APQ-41 radars of the fighters. But if not, all four aircraft had two Sidewinders hung from their wings and a full load of 20mm ammunition for their guns. Not one of the fighters would ever get the chance to use any of their armaments however.


The four fighters were vectored to what the air warfare officer on Viper thought would be a perfect intercept position, but when they got there and activated their radars, the Indonesian bombers did something unexpected. Instead of turning to run, they went to full power and began to accelerate toward where they thought the carrier would be. This caused alarm bells to ring in the cockpits of all four fighters. These suspected Indonesian planes were acting very much like they intended to launch an attack. Not to mention that the tactics seemed to be taken straight out of the Soviet playbook. And given the increasing speed of the bombers, what had been a perfect position ended up placing the four Banshees badly out of position considering their slow speed.


Given the short range of the Banshee radar, it wasn't long before what was strictly a radar contact became a visual one. The onrushing Soviet-built bombers resolved themselves into the familiar shape of the Badger in short order. As the ten aircraft began to merge into each other, Commander Burttschell noted the only thing that truly mattered. The bombers were not armed with the distinctive, stubby shape of the Kennel. As the aircraft rocketed past each other, the four Banshees turned as hard as they could to try and drop into a trail position on the bombers, but the Badger had a nearly one hundred mile an hour speed advantage over their old straight wing fighters and the Indonesian bombers quickly outpaced the Banshees of VF-92.

---------------

All the ships in the formation had gone to battle stations at the alert from John Knox, and they would remain there until the situation with the Indonesian bombers was resolved one way or another. Captain Bedell was weighing his options to try and make the Indonesian's job harder when the speaker on the wall began to crackle. "Silver Kite 217 calling Steamboat. Silver Kite 217 calling Steamboat. Visual contact! Zero-six Badger bombers inbound, heading zero-seven-two at angels six. Speed five-seven-zero knots. Contacts are NOT, repeat, NOT armed with Kennels. Repeating..."


In CIC onboard Yorktown, the entire crew let out a simultaneous sigh of relief. The inbound bombers had blown right past their fighters and the ships of the formation had a very limited ability to intercept them if it had come to it. Now, it seemed most likely that the Indonesians were simply sending them a message, the same way the Navy was sending them one. But this message was far more nasty. Had those bombers meant to attack them, it was doubtful that their Banshees would have been able to intercept them fast enough to stop them.


Beside him, Rear Admiral Colestock looked as if he had come to the same conclusion. This was something that needed to be reported up the chain of command. America's fleet of anti-submarine carriers were dangerously exposed to air attack, as the Indonesian's had just demonstrated to them. But not over the radio. This was something that needed to be reported on in person, where the chance of it being intercepted was significantly smaller.

[ssgtc]

Author's Notes
​

USS John Knox was deployed to WESTPAC in 1959 with Bon Homme Richard and her call sign was, at various times, either Viper or Tomcat 1. Seeing as I couldn't find which she was using when, I went with the first one listed and had use her "Viper" call sign. Her captain, Commander Swank, actually was her Commanding Officer. Just not in 1959. I couldn't find a list of commanding officers for her, but Commander Swank took command of John Knox around 1961, so I just used him as my CO in this timeline.

VF-92, Det N was known as the Silver Kings and this was the final deployment for them both with the Banshee and aboard Yorktown. The squadron would convert to the F3H-2 upon their return to NAS Alameda and deploy aboard Ranger in 1960. I couldn't find many references to whether the Banshee was armed with Sidewinders in US service, but Yorktown's cruise book mentions the detachment training intensively with Sidewinders prior to the deployment, so it would appear that at least these Banshees had them. Their call sign of "Silver Kite" I found in a war journal from Vietnam when the squadron was flying F-4s. They were noted as escorting a strike package of A-7s and they used the "Silver Kite" call sign at that point in time, so it may not be entirely period correct here.

I hope everyone enjoyed the update and please feel free to post comments. And if I screwed up somewhere, don't hesitate to point it out.

[lordroel]

Dec 12, 2021 2:26:11 GMT ssgtc said:

February, 16, 1959
Banda Sea, Western Pacific


Yorktown was not the only ship to hear the contact report from Lightning 108. USS Frank Knox (DDR-742) was listening too. Commander John Swank, her Commanding Officer, smiled grimly at the report. Admiral Colestock had positioned his ship directly on the most likely threat axis, and the Indonesians had obligingly done exactly what he thought they might. This was the mission that his ship was designed for. His Gearing class destroyer had been modified as a radar picket destroyer some ten years earlier.


It also made the most sense from an operational standpoint for his ship to be detached from the main formation. Until two days ago, she had been attached to the fast carrier attack group centered on Bon Homme Richard. But given where Yorktown was being sent, orders had come in detaching her from Bonnie Dick and assigning her to the Fighting Lady instead. Captain Swank's ship had been operating under a total radio and radar blackout, but his orders, which had come straight from Admiral Colestock, were to light off his ship's air search radars as soon as a contact report was made. Well, he had the report now. Captain Swank took a deep breath and gave the order. In moments, his ship went from unsuspected and undetected to broadcasting her presence for anyone to hear.


He could feel the tension in his gut ratcheting up with every minute that his ship was radiating. For long minutes there was nothing to be seen on the radar screens. In fact it would be nearly an hour before anything showed up on the screens in CIC. But when the targets did show up, Captain Swank and his crew were galvanized into a series of rapid actions.


As the first blips showed up on the radar screen, his men began calling out the contacts. Others of his men began updating the plot in CIC to keep track of everything. After a few hurried consultations with his intelligence officer and air warfare officer, the decision was made that, given the altitude, speed, and number of contacts, this could only be one thing: the Indonesian response to their transit. Within the next minute a message went out, "Viper calling Steamboat. Viper calling Steamboat. Raid warning! Multiple inbound bogies! Estimate zero-six contacts! Heading zero-seven-zero, speed five-two-five knots at angels five. Six-five miles south of my position. Repeat. Viper calling Steamboat..."

----------------

Onboard Yorktown, the inbound raid was quickly plotted. While the inbound aircraft had not yet been identified, it was a safe bet that they were Badgers. So much for CIA estimates, Captain Bedell thought ruefully. Based on their current plot, the inbound Badgers wouldn't come directly over the formation, but they would certainly come close enough to find the formation on their surface search radar. What worried Captain Bedell was whether or not the Indonesian Badgers were armed with Kennel anti-ship missiles. There was no information on whether the Soviets had sold the missile to Indonesia or not. So far, there had been no proof that Indonesia had them, but Captain Bedell hadn't risen to command an aircraft carrier by taking foolish risks.


Picking up a shipboard phone, Captain Bedell called PriFly from his post in CIC and gave the order everyone was prepared for, but hoped would not come, "Launch the fighters. Inbound air raid, bearing one-nine-five, speed five-two-five knots at angels five."


On the flight deck, canopies came down on the four Banshee fighters on the Fighting Lady's deck. Even while the canopies were still closing on the fighters, their Westinghouse engines were lighting off. Four minutes and twenty seconds after the order had been given, the first F2H-3, flown by Lieutenant Commander Burttschell, was shot off the port catapult and into the sky. The Banshee on the starboard cat joined him five seconds later. Before the two fighters had even finished their clearing turns, their two squadron mates were already being maneuvered into place on the cats. The two remaining Banshees on board joined them in the air two minutes later.


As the four Banshees screamed like their namesake to try and intercept the inbound planes, currently assumed to be missile armed Badgers, they were given vectors to their targets by Viper, who was still tracking them on her radar. The radar picket destroyer was fulfilling her mission admirably. As yet, the four Banshees had yet to activate their own radars in the hope that they would be able to bushwhack the inbound bombers when they came in range. It was hoped that the bombers would turn back once they detected the APQ-41 radars of the fighters. But if not, all four aircraft had two Sidewinders hung from their wings and a full load of 20mm ammunition for their guns. Not one of the fighters would ever get the chance to use any of their armaments however.


The four fighters were vectored to what the air warfare officer on Viper thought would be a perfect intercept position, but when they got there and activated their radars, the Indonesian bombers did something unexpected. Instead of turning to run, they went to full power and began to accelerate toward where they thought the carrier would be. This caused alarm bells to ring in the cockpits of all four fighters. These suspected Indonesian planes were acting very much like they intended to launch an attack. Not to mention that the tactics seemed to be taken straight out of the Soviet playbook. And given the increasing speed of the bombers, what had been a perfect position ended up placing the four Banshees badly out of position considering their slow speed.


Given the short range of the Banshee radar, it wasn't long before what was strictly a radar contact became a visual one. The onrushing Soviet-built bombers resolved themselves into the familiar shape of the Badger in short order. As the ten aircraft began to merge into each other, Commander Burttschell noted the only thing that truly mattered. The bombers were not armed with the distinctive, stubby shape of the Kennel. As the aircraft rocketed past each other, the four Banshees turned as hard as they could to try and drop into a trail position on the bombers, but the Badger had a nearly one hundred mile an hour speed advantage over their old straight wing fighters and the Indonesian bombers quickly outpaced the Banshees of VF-92.

---------------

All the ships in the formation had gone to battle stations at the alert from John Knox, and they would remain there until the situation with the Indonesian bombers was resolved one way or another. Captain Bedell was weighing his options to try and make the Indonesian's job harder when the speaker on the wall began to crackle. "Silver Kite 217 calling Steamboat. Silver Kite 217 calling Steamboat. Visual contact! Zero-six Badger bombers inbound, heading zero-seven-two at angels six. Speed five-seven-zero knots. Contacts are NOT, repeat, NOT armed with Kennels. Repeating..."


In CIC onboard Yorktown, the entire crew let out a simultaneous sigh of relief. The inbound bombers had blown right past their fighters and the ships of the formation had a very limited ability to intercept them if it had come to it. Now, it seemed most likely that the Indonesians were simply sending them a message, the same way the Navy was sending them one. But this message was far more nasty. Had those bombers meant to attack them, it was doubtful that their Banshees would have been able to intercept them fast enough to stop them.


Beside him, Rear Admiral Colestock looked as if he had come to the same conclusion. This was something that needed to be reported up the chain of command. America's fleet of anti-submarine carriers were dangerously exposed to air attack, as the Indonesian's had just demonstrated to them. But not over the radio. This was something that needed to be reported on in person, where the chance of it being intercepted was significantly smaller.

So this time it was only a Indonesia show of force and there was no shooting, that i good news.

[575]

Hmm, the Badgers still haven't closed with the Carrier Group so we might have more to see/read.

Anyway seems the Indonesians isn't yet updated to the EW situation around them as the Swedes and Soviets Baltic Fleet were in Oktober 1981 when the Soviet rescue fleet was targeted by the Swedish Fire Control Radar and stayed out of Swedish territorial waters. Only two 155mm guns were ranged on the Soviet ships but the Soviets didn't know. Here clearly the Indonesians must be unaware that the US means business when the USS Frank Knox lights up the radar!

Definately looking forward to developments.

[ssgtc]

Dec 12, 2021 11:06:17 GMT 575 said:

Hmm, the Badgers still haven't closed with the Carrier Group so we might have more to see/read.

Anyway seems the Indonesians isn't yet updated to the EW situation around them as the Swedes and Soviets Baltic Fleet were in Oktober 1981 when the Soviet rescue fleet was targeted by the Swedish Fire Control Radar and stayed out of Swedish territorial waters. Only two 155mm guns were ranged on the Soviet ships but the Soviets didn't know. Here clearly the Indonesians must be unaware that the US means business when the USS Frank Knox lights up the radar!

Definately looking forward to developments.

No, they picked up the radar. But it wasn't a fire control radar. It was an air search set. They used the emissions from the radar to get a rough idea of the location of the fleet.

[lordroel]

Dec 8, 2021 0:48:54 GMT ssgtc said:

February 15, 1959
Subic Bay, Zambales, Philippines

The lines to the largest ship at Naval Base Subic Bay were singled up and a plume of heat mixed with pale grey smoke issued forth from the tall exhaust stack. All shore leaves had been canceled less than forty-eight hours earlier, which meant that quite a few sailors had to be dragged out of the flesh pots and bars of Angeles City to get them to return to duty. Some of those men were even now nursing some of the worst hangovers of their lives. But none of that mattered to the men up on the bridge of the great ship. The orders had come and they would be followed. Besides, Captain McCampbell figured, ship's captains had been getting cursed by their crews for cutting shore leave short for centuries. Why should this time be any different? One thing was for certain however, his tour as Captain was off to an interesting start.

The United States was sending a message to Indonesia. Already aircraft from the Nineteenth Air Force were arriving at Clark Field and beginning operations from there. Now the Navy was doing their part to warn the Indonesians. Unlike the Air Force which had chosen to remain safely removed from the action, the Navy was heading straight for the belly of the beast. Already Yorktown and her antisubmarine task group were heading into harm's way on a "freedom of navigation exercise," in essence thumbing their noses at the Indonesians in the most threatening/non threatening manner possible. Now it was time to back up the show with some real muscle.

And Bon Homme Richard was just the ship to do it. Unlike her older sister, Bonnie Dick's air group was one of the most capable in the Navy. Carrier Air Group 19 was equipped with F11F-1s, FJ-4Bs, F3H-2s, AD-5s and A3Ds. Whatever the mission, from air superiority to nuclear strike, Bonnie Dick could answer the call. Upon putting to sea, Bon Homme Richard would rendezvous with HMS Albion, Ticonderoga and Yorktown for, in the opinion of Rear Admiral Schoech, a thrown together exercise to hone both navies' land attack capabilities while Yorktown would screen them from submarine surveillance.

So would it be correct the USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31) consist of, thanks to this page called Deployments of USS BON HOMME RICHARD:

VF-191 (F11F-1).

VA-192 (FJ-4B).

VF-193 (F3H-2).

VA-195 (AD-6).

VAH-2 Det. E (A3D-2).

VFP-61 Det. E (F9F-8P).

VA(AW)-35 Det. E (AD-5N).

VAW-11 Det. E (AD-5W).

HU-1 Det. 19 (HUP-2).

[ssgtc]

Dec 12, 2021 12:43:20 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 8, 2021 0:48:54 GMT ssgtc said:

February 15, 1959
Subic Bay, Zambales, Philippines

The lines to the largest ship at Naval Base Subic Bay were singled up and a plume of heat mixed with pale grey smoke issued forth from the tall exhaust stack. All shore leaves had been canceled less than forty-eight hours earlier, which meant that quite a few sailors had to be dragged out of the flesh pots and bars of Angeles City to get them to return to duty. Some of those men were even now nursing some of the worst hangovers of their lives. But none of that mattered to the men up on the bridge of the great ship. The orders had come and they would be followed. Besides, Captain McCampbell figured, ship's captains had been getting cursed by their crews for cutting shore leave short for centuries. Why should this time be any different? One thing was for certain however, his tour as Captain was off to an interesting start.

The United States was sending a message to Indonesia. Already aircraft from the Nineteenth Air Force were arriving at Clark Field and beginning operations from there. Now the Navy was doing their part to warn the Indonesians. Unlike the Air Force which had chosen to remain safely removed from the action, the Navy was heading straight for the belly of the beast. Already Yorktown and her antisubmarine task group were heading into harm's way on a "freedom of navigation exercise," in essence thumbing their noses at the Indonesians in the most threatening/non threatening manner possible. Now it was time to back up the show with some real muscle.

And Bon Homme Richard was just the ship to do it. Unlike her older sister, Bonnie Dick's air group was one of the most capable in the Navy. Carrier Air Group 19 was equipped with F11F-1s, FJ-4Bs, F3H-2s, AD-5s and A3Ds. Whatever the mission, from air superiority to nuclear strike, Bonnie Dick could answer the call. Upon putting to sea, Bon Homme Richard would rendezvous with HMS Albion, Ticonderoga and Yorktown for, in the opinion of Rear Admiral Schoech, a thrown together exercise to hone both navies' land attack capabilities while Yorktown would screen them from submarine surveillance.

So would it be correct the USS Bon Homme Richard (CV-31) consist of, thanks to this page called Deployments of USS BON HOMME RICHARD:

VF-191 (F11F-1).

VA-192 (FJ-4B).

VF-193 (F3H-2).

VA-195 (AD-6).

VAH-2 Det. E (A3D-2).

VFP-61 Det. E (F9F-8P).

VA(AW)-35 Det. E (AD-5N).

VAW-11 Det. E (AD-5W).

HU-1 Det. 19 (HUP-2).

Pretty much, yes. I've been using the cruise books for the Navy to know what ship is deployed where. Her airwing is pretty good for the time period. Only Midway and Ranger have better ones (they both have a full VAH squadron embarked and both have Crusaders while Ranger has an extra FJ-4B squadron on board.

[stevep]

   Well that was interesting.  I wonder if the Indonesians have made a mistake however.  Their shown their willing to make an 'attack run' on a US carrier force and also that the interceptors are limited by their speed.  In which case and not knowing whether they might have missiles next time what will the USN do if a similar incident occurs, especially if there has been more tension.  Also be interested to see Moscow's reaction to this incident.  They could well be having kittens even through it didn't result in a shoot-out. 

[ssgtc]

Dec 12, 2021 14:51:57 GMT stevep said:

   Well that was interesting.  I wonder if the Indonesians have made a mistake however.  Their shown their willing to make an 'attack run' on a US carrier force and also that the interceptors are limited by their speed.  In which case and not knowing whether they might have missiles next time what will the USN do if a similar incident occurs, especially if there has been more tension.  Also be interested to see Moscow's reaction to this incident.  They could well be having kittens even through it didn't result in a shoot-out. 

Not really. This is the kind of thing Soviet Naval Aviation did all the time to American carrier battle groups. This is really just emphasizing that the CVS fleet needs better fighter cover than what they have. To a CVA force, this wouldn't have been more than a nuisance (Demons would have locked them up so long range and either Crusaders or Tigers would just sit on their six until they got the message)

[lordroel]

Dec 12, 2021 15:12:42 GMT ssgtc said:

Dec 12, 2021 14:51:57 GMT stevep said:

   Well that was interesting.  I wonder if the Indonesians have made a mistake however.  Their shown their willing to make an 'attack run' on a US carrier force and also that the interceptors are limited by their speed.  In which case and not knowing whether they might have missiles next time what will the USN do if a similar incident occurs, especially if there has been more tension.  Also be interested to see Moscow's reaction to this incident.  They could well be having kittens even through it didn't result in a shoot-out. 

Not really. This is the kind of thing Soviet Naval Aviation did all the time to American carrier battle groups. This is really just emphasizing that the CVS fleet needs better fighter cover than what they have. To a CVA force, this wouldn't have been more than a nuisance (Demons would have locked them up so long range and either Crusaders or Tigers would just sit on their six until they got the message)

But the Indonesian Air force is new to this, the Soviet Naval Aviation is doing this a bit longer than they have.

[ssgtc]

Dec 12, 2021 17:26:27 GMT lordroel said:

Dec 12, 2021 15:12:42 GMT ssgtc said:

Not really. This is the kind of thing Soviet Naval Aviation did all the time to American carrier battle groups. This is really just emphasizing that the CVS fleet needs better fighter cover than what they have. To a CVA force, this wouldn't have been more than a nuisance (Demons would have locked them up so long range and either Crusaders or Tigers would just sit on their six until they got the message)

But the Indonesian Air force is new to this, the Soviet Naval Aviation is doing this a bit longer than they have.

They are. The next update is going to be from the Indonesian Badgers. It'll become a bit more clear after that.

[lordroel]

If we go buy this list below, what plane does the Indonesian Air force not operate: