Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[ssgtc]

Aug 30, 2020 17:28:52 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 30, 2020 15:46:32 GMT ssgtc said:

August 5, 1957
Iswahyudi Air Force Base, East Java, Indonesia

Colonel Sutyagin smiles under his oxygen mask as he takes the first of the completed MiG-15s into the air. The stick felt good in his hand as the trainer rocketed up into the sky. Perhaps the combat take-off was a bit much on what was supposed to be a check flight to make sure everything worked on the aircraft, but he just couldn't resist showing off a little bit. Leveling the MiG off at ten thousand meters, he began running down his checklist and verifying system functionality.

Two and a half hours later, Nikolai gently set the fighter down on runway 17R and taxied to the hanger. The technicians had done well. His gripe list was actually fairly short. With luck, they could make the few repairs needed in short order and they could begin training the Indonesians in proper Soviet tactics. And as the ground crew assembled more aircraft they would hopefully get better at it and take less time while making fewer errors.

So the Indonesian can fly the MiG-15, now how will they fare in combat with most likely western pilots and their fighters.

Not quite yet. They haven't even taken their first flight in one yet. This is a Soviet pilot taking the first one assembled for a check flight. The Indonesian Air Force pilots still need to learn how to fly these. And at any rate, the MiG-15UTI is just a trainer. It still has guns, but it's a two seat jet trainer.

[lordroel]

Aug 30, 2020 17:46:56 GMT ssgtc said:

Aug 30, 2020 17:28:52 GMT lordroel said:

So the Indonesian can fly the MiG-15, now how will they fare in combat with most likely western pilots and their fighters.

Not quite yet. They haven't even taken their first flight in one yet. This is a Soviet pilot taking the first one assembled for a check flight. The Indonesian Air Force pilots still need to learn how to fly these. And at any rate, the MiG-15UTI is just a trainer. It still has guns, but it's a two seat jet trainer.

Some North Korean advisors then to fly combat mission, I heard they did that also during the Vietnam War.

[ssgtc]

Aug 30, 2020 17:48:48 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 30, 2020 17:46:56 GMT ssgtc said:

Not quite yet. They haven't even taken their first flight in one yet. This is a Soviet pilot taking the first one assembled for a check flight. The Indonesian Air Force pilots still need to learn how to fly these. And at any rate, the MiG-15UTI is just a trainer. It still has guns, but it's a two seat jet trainer.

Some North Korean advisors then to fly combat mission, I heard they did that also during the Vietnam War.

They have Soviet advisors in country training them right now. And at any rate, they aren't ready for a military confrontation with the Netherlands yet. They are still modernizing their hardware.

[lordroel]

Aug 30, 2020 18:58:42 GMT ssgtc said:

Aug 30, 2020 17:48:48 GMT lordroel said:

Some North Korean advisors then to fly combat mission, I heard they did that also during the Vietnam War.

They have Soviet advisors in country training them right now. And at any rate, they aren't ready for a military confrontation with the Netherlands yet. They are still modernizing their hardware.

But when they do the are a match for the Netherlands but not that kind of match for the United States.

[ssgtc]

Aug 30, 2020 19:01:58 GMT lordroel said:

Aug 30, 2020 18:58:42 GMT ssgtc said:

They have Soviet advisors in country training them right now. And at any rate, they aren't ready for a military confrontation with the Netherlands yet. They are still modernizing their hardware.

But when they do the are a match for the Netherlands but not that kind of match for the United States.

No, not a match for the United States. At this time, the USN routinely deployed 3 attack carriers and one antisubmarine carrier to the Western Pacific. Plus the entire 5th Air Force in Japan and Air Force units in the Philippines. But against what the Netherlands (and to a lesser extent the UK and Commonwealth) could deploy to the area, they don't look as bad.

[stevep]

Aug 30, 2020 15:44:06 GMT ssgtc said:

August 1, 1957
Sulawesi, Indonesia


Major General Suharto met with Colonels Hussein and Sumal. As the representative of the Government in Jakarta, he was there to make one last ditch effort to bring the rebel officers back into the fold. He was there because he could sympathize with the rebellious Colonels nationalist views. Like them, he had no love of the Communists. But the Soviet Union was one of the only countries willing to support them in their anti-imperialist claims. Particularly in regard to West Irian and Malaya. So he was willing to work with them. A case of the enemy of my enemy, is my friend.


Now if only he could convince these men of that. His offer was straight forward. The government in Jakarta would make a greater effort to develop some of the more outlying islands like Sulawesi and Sumatra instead of concentrating so much on Java. The Officers would receive amnesty and be allowed to honorably retire with a full pension. The common soldiers under them would also be granted amnesty and would be allowed to continue with their careers with no negative repercussions. And the government would reevaluate their relationship with the Soviet Union once the West Irian situation was resolved. But if they refused, no mercy would be shown to them and the Government would order in the Army to burn them out, root and stem.


The offer by General Suharto was turned down. The rebel officers were sure of their cause and their abilities to win through to ultimate victory. They were so sure of the outcome, that they made a counter-offer. They offered to have General Suharto join them in their cause. In nearly any capacity he wished. The nascent rebellion could use a man of his skills. Either as a military commander, or as their man inside the government to inform them of how the military intended to respond them. Like General Suharto's offer to them, their offer to him was refused. Suharto would not turn his back on his government.

  The irony.  We desire to rule those areas despite the population not wanting us to.  That makes them imperialists and us anti-imperialists - NOT.

[stevep]

Aug 30, 2020 17:46:56 GMT ssgtc said:

Aug 30, 2020 17:28:52 GMT lordroel said:

So the Indonesian can fly the MiG-15, now how will they fare in combat with most likely western pilots and their fighters.

Not quite yet. They haven't even taken their first flight in one yet. This is a Soviet pilot taking the first one assembled for a check flight. The Indonesian Air Force pilots still need to learn how to fly these. And at any rate, the MiG-15UTI is just a trainer. It still has guns, but it's a two seat jet trainer.

  Plus it sounds like the primary problem might be in local ground crew being able to maintain the a/c properly.

  Not to mention that when they do start attacking somewhere if the west is determined to oppose them not only are they going to face a lot more forces but also a blockade, which would - unless the Soviets risk challenging it - mean they probably quickly run out of spares, munitions etc.

[ssgtc]

Aug 31, 2020 10:32:39 GMT stevep said:

Aug 30, 2020 17:46:56 GMT ssgtc said:

Not quite yet. They haven't even taken their first flight in one yet. This is a Soviet pilot taking the first one assembled for a check flight. The Indonesian Air Force pilots still need to learn how to fly these. And at any rate, the MiG-15UTI is just a trainer. It still has guns, but it's a two seat jet trainer.

  Plus it sounds like the primary problem might be in local ground crew being able to maintain the a/c properly.

  Not to mention that when they do start attacking somewhere if the west is determined to oppose them not only are they going to face a lot more forces but also a blockade, which would - unless the Soviets risk challenging it - mean they probably quickly run out of spares, munitions etc.

Skilled maintainers is an issue. The Soviets will be doing their best to get them up to speed though. The current plan is for a minimum of one year of training, though that will probably extend to two-three years in actuality before the Indonesians are skilled enough to get by on their own

[ssgtc]

August 13, 1957
Washington, DC, USA

In a hearing before the Senate Appropriations Committee, Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson, Secretary of the Navy Thomas Gates and the Chief of Naval Operations Admiral Arleigh Burke are arguing for Congress to approve a second Enterprise class carrier following the loss of Independence in New York. The committee is not entirely opposed to the idea of ordering a second carrier, but they do present several serious reservations over ordering two ships of a brand new and unproven type at the same time. Several hours are spent showcasing the possible benefits of a two carrier buy, chief among them are the proposed reductions in prices that Newport News Shipbuilding believes they can achieve from building two carriers nearly simultaneously. The hearing concludes on a positive note though the Committee tells the three men before them that they do need to study the proposal more before approving it.

[ssgtc]

August 18, 1957
Washington, DC, USA

In a second hearing before the Senate Appropriations committee and with the Senate Armed Services Committee also present, Secretaries Wilson and Gates and Admiral Burke are offered a compromise. The two Senate committees will approve a two carrier buy of the first two Enterprise class if the Navy will agree to cutbacks elsewhere. In particular, the decommissioning of older ships. The unmodernized Essex class in particular.

After spending the day in discussions, and making several requests to have information sent to the Capitol from the Pentagon, an agreement is reached. The Navy will mothball two of their Essex class ships early in exchange for a second nuclear carrier. For the first time since he was informed of the fire on Independence, Admiral Burke was happy with the state of his fleet.

[ssgtc]

August 19, 1957
Iswahyudi Air Force Base, East Java, Indonesia

The last of the initial batch of MiG-15UTIs takes it maiden flight. After the near-fatal mishap on the 7th, Colonel Sutyagin ordered every trainer to be inspected from top to bottom by the senior Soviet technicians to ensure nothing was missed. Fortunately for both the Indonesian and Soviet technicians, no further in flight mishaps occurred. The senior technicians however did discover three further problems in two of the nearly completed aircraft that, had they taken to the sky, would have likely resulted in the loss of the aircraft.

After that particularly nasty discovery, Colonel Sutyagin ordered further training and instruction of the Indonesian maintenance personnel. He also quietly ordered his technicians to pay more attention to what the Indonesian techs were doing to try and catch problems before an aircraft was fully assembled.

[ssgtc]

August 19, 1957
Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands

322 Squadron departs Holland for West New Guinea. The squadron is being permanently transferred to the island and as such, the families of the men assigned to the squadron are traveling with them aboard the chartered liner SS Nieuw Amsterdam. The squadron's aircraft and other equipment had been loaded aboard the freighter SS Stad Maassluis for shipment. The 6,700 Gross Register Ton freighter was considerably slower than the Nieuw Amsterdam and as such, the chartered liner would arrive in New Guinea more than a week earlier than the freighter carrying the squadron's equipment. This would give the men of the squadron time to prepare for the arrival of their aircraft at their new home of Mokmer Airfield on Biak. While the Dutch government would have far preferred shipping the fighters of the squadron on their aircraft carrier Karel Doorman, she was currently in drydock receiving a comprehensive overhaul to enable her to operate fast jets.

[stevep]

Sept 4, 2020 2:25:39 GMT ssgtc said:

August 19, 1957
Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands

322 Squadron departs Holland for West New Guinea. The squadron is being permanently transferred to the island and as such, the families of the men assigned to the squadron are traveling with them aboard the chartered liner SS Nieuw Amsterdam. The squadron's aircraft and other equipment had been loaded aboard the freighter SS Stad Maassluis for shipment. The 6,700 Gross Register Ton freighter was considerably slower than the Nieuw Amsterdam and as such, the chartered liner would arrive in New Guinea more than a week earlier than the freighter carrying the squadron's equipment. This would give the men of the squadron time to prepare for the arrival of their aircraft at their new home of Mokmer Airfield on Biak. While the Dutch government would have far preferred shipping the fighters of the squadron on their aircraft carrier Karel Doorman, she was currently in drydock receiving a comprehensive overhaul to enable her to operate fast jets.

  Now why am I thinking this gives Indonesia a temptation to attack WNG before the a/c arrive, but after the crew and their families arrive?  Which is likely to cause anger in the Netherlands, especially if their mistreated.

  Given what's happening in the US I'm now thinking those Essex class to be decommissioned aren't going to be scrapped but are going to see service under a new flag, or possibly more than one if their in good enough condition.  A Dutch fleet with their own CV - unless a further trigger is something happening to that - and two reconstructed Essex class is going to be an interesting challenge, especially with US/UK/other support.

[ssgtc]

Sept 4, 2020 10:57:12 GMT stevep said:

Sept 4, 2020 2:25:39 GMT ssgtc said:

August 19, 1957
Amsterdam, New Holland, Netherlands

322 Squadron departs Holland for West New Guinea. The squadron is being permanently transferred to the island and as such, the families of the men assigned to the squadron are traveling with them aboard the chartered liner SS Nieuw Amsterdam. The squadron's aircraft and other equipment had been loaded aboard the freighter SS Stad Maassluis for shipment. The 6,700 Gross Register Ton freighter was considerably slower than the Nieuw Amsterdam and as such, the chartered liner would arrive in New Guinea more than a week earlier than the freighter carrying the squadron's equipment. This would give the men of the squadron time to prepare for the arrival of their aircraft at their new home of Mokmer Airfield on Biak. While the Dutch government would have far preferred shipping the fighters of the squadron on their aircraft carrier Karel Doorman, she was currently in drydock receiving a comprehensive overhaul to enable her to operate fast jets.

  Now why am I thinking this gives Indonesia a temptation to attack WNG before the a/c arrive, but after the crew and their families arrive?  Which is likely to cause anger in the Netherlands, especially if their mistreated.

  Given what's happening in the US I'm now thinking those Essex class to be decommissioned aren't going to be scrapped but are going to see service under a new flag, or possibly more than one if their in good enough condition.  A Dutch fleet with their own CV - unless a further trigger is something happening to that - and two reconstructed Essex class is going to be an interesting challenge, especially with US/UK/other support.

Indonesia isn't quite ready for that yet. They've just started converting to jets and are trying to modernize their military. Once they are operational in the MiG-17Fs they have coming, it won't matter anyway. The Fresco is a huge over match for the Dutch Gloster Meteor F.8s that 322 squadron is equipped with. Hell, the MiG-15 trainers they have on hand are an over match for it.

[stevep]

Sept 4, 2020 11:31:10 GMT ssgtc said:

Sept 4, 2020 10:57:12 GMT stevep said:

  Now why am I thinking this gives Indonesia a temptation to attack WNG before the a/c arrive, but after the crew and their families arrive?  Which is likely to cause anger in the Netherlands, especially if their mistreated.

  Given what's happening in the US I'm now thinking those Essex class to be decommissioned aren't going to be scrapped but are going to see service under a new flag, or possibly more than one if their in good enough condition.  A Dutch fleet with their own CV - unless a further trigger is something happening to that - and two reconstructed Essex class is going to be an interesting challenge, especially with US/UK/other support.

Indonesia isn't quite ready for that yet. They've just started converting to jets and are trying to modernize their military. Once they are operational in the MiG-17Fs they have coming, it won't matter anyway. The Fresco is a huge over match for the Dutch Gloster Meteor F.8s that 322 squadron is equipped with. Hell, the MiG-15 trainers they have on hand are an over match for it.

  Ah so its going to be a slow burner.  Have to see how things develop.