Building the Royal Swedish Navy - Viking class coastal battleship

[lordroel]

Building the Royal Swedish Navy - Viking class coastal battleship

Before 1939 the Royal Swedish Navy intended to expand and modernize their fleet with new ships, the pictures posted shown what most likely to be called the Viking class coastal battleship with 4 ships planned and construction to start in 1939 but suspended as the war broke out.

Image I



Image II



Twitter image

[stevep]

   lordroel ,

   Do you know any stats on the actual design?  Tonnage, armour, speed, weapons etc?  I can see it has 4 big guns in two twin turrets but what exact size they are.

  By the sound of it they were going to be constructed in Sweden?

  I would assume they would be of limited use if Sweden was attacked by a major power, i.e. Germany or Russia due to the growing dominance of air power although it would definitely complicate any sea invasion.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Aug 14, 2020 10:10:15 GMT stevep said:

   lordroel ,

   Do you know any stats on the actual design?  Tonnage, armour, speed, weapons etc?  I can see it has 4 big guns in two twin turrets but what exact size they are.

  By the sound of it they were going to be constructed in Sweden?

  I would assume they would be of limited use if Sweden was attacked by a major power, i.e. Germany or Russia due to the growing dominance of air power although it would definitely complicate any sea invasion.

  Steve

Well going from this page: Swedish Coastal Warship Projects

Coastal Battleship Design (Viking class)

Date of design: 1934/36 (or 1939)

Dimensions: 133m x 19,5m x 6,85m.
Displacement: 7.150tons standard.
Engine Power: 20.000shp, 4 shafts.
Maximum Speed: 41km/h (22knots.

Armour: Belt: 254mm, Deck: 50mm.

Armaments:
2x2 254mm Guns
2x3 120m DP-AA Guns
4x2 40m AA Guns

Image



You can also find the original 1939 design here

[stevep]

   lordroel ,

  Ouch their smaller than I was thinking.  Only about 7kton displacement.  Most new cruisers of the period were heavier than that, albeit faster and with smaller guns.  A 10" shell can ruin the day of many ships but not sure how effective they would have been in a real crisis.

  Thanks for the info.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Aug 14, 2020 11:14:09 GMT stevep said:

   lordroel ,

  Ouch their smaller than I was thinking.  Only about 7kton displacement.  Most new cruisers of the period were heavier than that, albeit faster and with smaller guns.  A 10" shell can ruin the day of many ships but not sure how effective they would have been in a real crisis.

  Thanks for the info.

  Steve

They would have most likely have to face a German battleship going down to cruiser size, as a example, on September 24th 1941 a large German fleet anchored in Åland, the islands between Sweden and Finland. Among the ships were the battleship Tirpitz, the pocket battleship Admiral Scheer and two cruisers. The purpose was to stop the Soviet Union's Baltic fleet to escape to neutral Sweden, in case they made such an attempt as the German troops advanced on to the Soviet Union's naval base Kronstadt. 

Wonder if the  Viking class coastal battleship among other and this website: Neutral, but sure to remain so: The Swedish Navy in WW2 give a good picture on what the OTL Swedish Navy in World War II had, and that would not induce Viking class coastal battleship as i doubt they would be finish before 1943/44.

[1bigrich]

Aug 13, 2020 20:12:45 GMT lordroel said:

Building the Royal Swedish Navy - Viking class coastal battleship

Before 1939 the Royal Swedish Navy intended to expand and modernize their fleet with new ships, the pictures posted shown what most likely to be called the Viking class coastal battleship with 4 ships planned and construction to start in 1939 but suspended as the war broke out.

Of the Swedish coast defense ships at the time

Dristigheten had been rebuilt into a seaplane tender.  She dated from 1900, and was rebuilt in the late '20s.

The four Aran class (Aran, Wasa, Tapperheten, Manligheten) dated from the first decade of the century, and Wasa will go out of service in 1940

Oscar II commissioned in 1907.

The three Sverige class (Sverige, Drottning Victoria, Gustav V) completed between 1917 and 1922.   Sverige was paid for by public subcription, and the latter two were a slightly improved design with icebreaker bows.   A fourth ship was never built.

So a new pansarskepp would have been due around the time, and appropriate.  

I've always liked the Ansaldo design, but little wonder the Swedes found it too large.   The whole idea of the Sverige class was to operate in the shallows among the islands and coastal waters, whey they could outgun ships able to operate in those waters, while anything larger like a battleship would be limited in constricted waters and exposed to torpedo craft and submarines.  

The move down to a 10in gun would have been acceptable if it were longer-ranged than the previous 11in.  It still had plenty of destructive potential against any cruiser than can operate in Sweden's shallows.  The four ships could have replaced the Sverige class in the front-line, and allowing for the disposal of the Arans and Oscar II. 

If they were laid down in 1940, we could probably expect commissioning in 1943-44 at the earliest.  

my thoughts,

[lordroel]

Aug 14, 2020 15:24:29 GMT 1bigrich said:

If they were laid down in 1940, we could probably expect commissioning in 1943-44 at the earliest.  

my thoughts,

To late for them to take part in the defense if any German invasion of Sweden happened then because after 1943 the Germans where not able to do any invasion of Sweden.

[1bigrich]

Aug 14, 2020 15:26:36 GMT lordroel said:

To late for them to take part in the defense if any German invasion of Sweden happened then because after 1943 the Germans where not able to do any invasion of Sweden.

Agreed.   Sweden and Switzerland would have been very difficult for Germany to conquer.   I think the Germans correctly surmised in both situations it was not worth the effort and better to have them as neutrals.

Regards,

[lordroel]

Not the Viking class i think but the Ansaldo 1941 coastal battleship design.

17000tons, 3x2 280mm Guns, 4x2 120mm Guns, 5x2 57mm AA, 2x2 40mm AA, 6x1 20mm AA, 120mm Deck, 200mm Belt Armour. The navy deemed it too big and heavy and started to center around a lighter Navy, of light cruisers from which the Tre Kronor were born.

Image I



Image II

[micael]

Aug 14, 2020 15:45:55 GMT 1bigrich said:

Aug 14, 2020 15:26:36 GMT lordroel said:

To late for them to take part in the defense if any German invasion of Sweden happened then because after 1943 the Germans where not able to do any invasion of Sweden.

Agreed.   Sweden and Switzerland would have been very difficult for Germany to conquer.   I think the Germans correctly surmised in both situations it was not worth the effort and better to have them as neutrals.

Regards,

We had some fortuitous circumstances that together led to Germany not executing an invasion. One was that they were dependent on the Swedish iron ore and they knew that the UK would try to bomb away the mines if they invaded. Another was that Göring was quite fond of Sweden, Swedish wife and spent a period of his life here, and was advocating against an invasion. A third was that Raeder deemed that to beat the Swedish Navy with the Sverige class in play he’d have to use battleships, which he absolutely didn’t feel he could spare on a sideshow operation, and thus advocated against it as well.


He apparently issued an order as well that if German naval units found themselves in a combat operation against a force with Sverige class ships present they were to withdraw unless German battleships were present. It seems that this was based on the rationale that the Sverige class main guns outranged the German cruisers, could penetrate their armor, had been upgraded with basically the same fire control systems as the Germans used themselves just before the war, and that the Swedish Navy was deemed competent. So there was a potential for having cruisers take serious damage or even be lost if they had to go up on a force centered around the Sverige class, and that wasn’t worth it. 

The most critical point came in early 1943 when the German high command entertained the idea of an invasion more seriously and Major General Adolf von Schell put together a plan which were to use 100,000 troops moving in from Norway. He pointed out after the war when asked by Swedish military historians that the force buildup there never reached what he thought was necessary for success, so it was never very close to being implemented. Sweden was also aware that the risk of invasion had increased and mustered the largest military exercise we’re likely to ever have, with 300,000 troops participating, in an attempt to dissuade the Germans.

The basic planned advances in von Schell’s plan:

[lordroel]

Oct 11, 2021 23:22:42 GMT micael said:

Aug 14, 2020 15:45:55 GMT 1bigrich said:

Agreed.   Sweden and Switzerland would have been very difficult for Germany to conquer.   I think the Germans correctly surmised in both situations it was not worth the effort and better to have them as neutrals.

Regards,

We had some fortuitous circumstances that together led to Germany not executing an invasion. One was that they were dependent on the Swedish iron ore and they knew that the UK would try to bomb away the mines if they invaded. Another was that Göring was quite fond of Sweden, Swedish wife and spent a period of his life here, and was advocating against an invasion. A third was that Raeder deemed that to beat the Swedish Navy with the Sverige class in play he’d have to use battleships, which he absolutely didn’t feel he could spare on a sideshow operation, and thus advocated against it as well.


He apparently issued an order as well that if German naval units found themselves in a combat operation against a force with Sverige class ships present they were to withdraw unless German battleships were present. It seems that this was based on the rationale that the Sverige class main guns outranged the German cruisers, could penetrate their armor, had been upgraded with basically the same fire control systems as the Germans used themselves just before the war, and that the Swedish Navy was deemed competent. So there was a potential for having cruisers take serious damage or even be lost if they had to go up on a force centered around the Sverige class, and that wasn’t worth it. 

The most critical point came in early 1943 when the German high command entertained the idea of an invasion more seriously and Major General Adolf von Schell put together a plan which were to use 100,000 troops moving in from Norway. He pointed out after the war when asked by Swedish military historians that the force buildup there never reached what he thought was necessary for success, so it was never very close to being implemented. Sweden was also aware that the risk of invasion had increased and mustered the largest military exercise we’re likely to ever have, with 300,000 troops participating, in an attempt to dissuade the Germans.

The basic planned advances in von Schell’s plan:

Interesting micael , also we have thread called Could Sweden have withstood a German Blitzkrieg if you like to post there.