lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971 
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 14, 2020 18:21:04 GMT
Italian battlecruiser designsNever knew that Italy had designs for a battlecruiser, but it seems they had the Design 1928 Battlecruiser and the Design 1933 Battlecruiser
Design 1928 Battlecruiser
In 1928, Italian designers began studies to determine the best way to utilize the 70,000 tons of new construction allotted to Italy in the Washington Treaty. The first design to be seriously considered was for a small capital ship with protection sacrificed for heavy armament and high speed. The limited displacement of 23,000 tons would allow three vessels to be built within the 70,000-ton limit. Dimensions: 194,5 x 28,9 x 8m Displacement: 23.000tons Engine Power: 150.000shp, 4 shafts Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots) Armour Thickness: unknown 3x2 381mm Cannons 4x2 152mm Guns 6x2 100mm DP-AA Guns 2 seaplanes Image I of Design 1928 Battlecruiser Image II of Design 1928 Battlecruiser Design 1933 BattlecruiserBefore the plan to rebuild the old battleships of the Regia Marina, the Conte di Cavour and Andrea Doria classes, there were plans to build fast capital ships, aka battlecrusiers. The design could be considered as the battlecrusier version of the later Littorio class battleships though it did have very limited AA weaponry for self defence. Design work progressed rapidly, but in late 1933 the Italians decided to abandon the work. The 1933 battlecruiser would have been poorly protected, but it was more than capable of dealing with British and French cruisers, while being fast enough to elude capital ships. The cancellation of this design meant that Italy, the nation that had given birth to the very idea of a cruiser armed with battleship-caliber weapons, never fielded a battlecruiser. Dimensions: 200 x 27 x 8m Displacement: 26.500tons Engine Power: 160.000shp, 4 shafts Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots) Armour Thickness: 250mm Belt, 150mm Deck Armaments: 4x2 340mm Cannons 6x2 152mm Guns 6x2 37mm AA Guns 4 seaplanes, probably IMAM Ro.43 OTO Leghorn Battlecruiser design for the Regia Marina, ’30.Image I of Design 1933 Battlecruiser
|
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 14, 2020 23:11:31 GMT
Italian battlecruiser designsNever knew that Italy had designs for a battlecruiser, but it seems they had the Design 1928 Battlecruiser and the Design 1933 Battlecruiser
Design 1928 Battlecruiser
In 1928, Italian designers began studies to determine the best way to utilize the 70,000 tons of new construction allotted to Italy in the Washington Treaty. The first design to be seriously considered was for a small capital ship with protection sacrificed for heavy armament and high speed. The limited displacement of 23,000 tons would allow three vessels to be built within the 70,000-ton limit. Dimensions: 194,5 x 28,9 x 8m Displacement: 23.000tons Engine Power: 150.000shp, 4 shafts Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots) Armour Thickness: unknown 3x2 381mm Cannons 4x2 152mm Guns 6x2 100mm DP-AA Guns 2 seaplanes Image I of Design 1928 BattlecruiserImage II of Design 1928 BattlecruiserDesign 1933 BattlecruiserBefore the plan to rebuild the old battleships of the Regia Marina, the Conte di Cavour and Andrea Doria classes, there were plans to build fast capital ships, aka battlecrusiers. The design could be considered as the battlecrusier version of the later Littorio class battleships though it did have very limited AA weaponry for self defence. Design work progressed rapidly, but in late 1933 the Italians decided to abandon the work. The 1933 battlecruiser would have been poorly protected, but it was more than capable of dealing with British and French cruisers, while being fast enough to elude capital ships. The cancellation of this design meant that Italy, the nation that had given birth to the very idea of a cruiser armed with battleship-caliber weapons, never fielded a battlecruiser. Dimensions: 200 x 27 x 8m Displacement: 26.500tons Engine Power: 160.000shp, 4 shafts Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots) Armour Thickness: 250mm Belt, 150mm Deck Armaments: 4x2 340mm Cannons 6x2 152mm Guns 6x2 37mm AA Guns 4 seaplanes, probably IMAM Ro.43 OTO Leghorn Battlecruiser design for the Regia Marina, ’30.Image I of Design 1933 Battlecruiser Bob Henneman's Italian BC page, preserved via web-archive. web.archive.org/web/20110711123109/http://www.bobhenneman.info/ItalyHome.htmThe second image above with 9 guns is not the 23,000 ton battlecruuiser. It is design Number 45367. Stefano posted an image of the model of this ship years ago, and Bob references that photo. I hope these work    More images with those can be seen here
The 1933 design does make for an interesting comparison with Dunquerque and Strasbourg. The 'Second Class'* capital ships of the interwar and World War 2 era have always fascinated me.
Regards,
*A term the late Bob Henneman once used to describe them.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2020 7:19:57 GMT
Italian battlecruiser designsNever knew that Italy had designs for a battlecruiser, but it seems they had the Design 1928 Battlecruiser and the Design 1933 Battlecruiser
Design 1928 Battlecruiser
In 1928, Italian designers began studies to determine the best way to utilize the 70,000 tons of new construction allotted to Italy in the Washington Treaty. The first design to be seriously considered was for a small capital ship with protection sacrificed for heavy armament and high speed. The limited displacement of 23,000 tons would allow three vessels to be built within the 70,000-ton limit. Dimensions: 194,5 x 28,9 x 8m Displacement: 23.000tons Engine Power: 150.000shp, 4 shafts Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots) Armour Thickness: unknown 3x2 381mm Cannons 4x2 152mm Guns 6x2 100mm DP-AA Guns 2 seaplanes Image I of Design 1928 BattlecruiserImage II of Design 1928 BattlecruiserDesign 1933 BattlecruiserBefore the plan to rebuild the old battleships of the Regia Marina, the Conte di Cavour and Andrea Doria classes, there were plans to build fast capital ships, aka battlecrusiers. The design could be considered as the battlecrusier version of the later Littorio class battleships though it did have very limited AA weaponry for self defence. Design work progressed rapidly, but in late 1933 the Italians decided to abandon the work. The 1933 battlecruiser would have been poorly protected, but it was more than capable of dealing with British and French cruisers, while being fast enough to elude capital ships. The cancellation of this design meant that Italy, the nation that had given birth to the very idea of a cruiser armed with battleship-caliber weapons, never fielded a battlecruiser. Dimensions: 200 x 27 x 8m Displacement: 26.500tons Engine Power: 160.000shp, 4 shafts Maximum Speed: 54km/h (29knots) Armour Thickness: 250mm Belt, 150mm Deck Armaments: 4x2 340mm Cannons 6x2 152mm Guns 6x2 37mm AA Guns 4 seaplanes, probably IMAM Ro.43 OTO Leghorn Battlecruiser design for the Regia Marina, ’30.Image I of Design 1933 Battlecruiser Bob Henneman's Italian BC page, preserved via web-archive. web.archive.org/web/20110711123109/http://www.bobhenneman.info/ItalyHome.htmThe second image above with 9 guns is not the 23,000 ton battlecruuiser. It is design Number 45367. Stefano posted an image of the model of this ship years ago, and Bob references that photo. I hope these work More images with those can be seen hereThe 1933 design does make for an interesting comparison with Dunquerque and Strasbourg. The 'Second Class'* capital ships of the interwar and World War 2 era have always fascinated me.
Regards, *A term the late Bob Henneman once used to describe them.
Thanks for the images. So Number 45367 is not a battlecruiser design then. |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 15, 2020 8:28:01 GMT
Thanks for the images. So Number 45367 is not a battlecruiser design then.
It is a battlecruiser, but 26,500 tons, not the 23,000 ton design. See the link I provided to Bob Henneman's page on Italian battlecruisers. I think Bob may have been the first to figure this out and correctly identify the model. In the Engligh-speaking part of the world, at least.
Regards,
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2020 8:30:55 GMT
Thanks for the images. So Number 45367 is not a battlecruiser design then. It is a battlecruiser, bit 26,500 tons, not the 23,000 ton design. See the link I provided to Bob Henneman's page on Italian battlecruisers. I think Bob may have been the first to figure this out and correctly identify the model. In the Engligh-speaking part of the world, at least. Regards, So Italy had 3 battlecruiser designs instead of the two i linked in the first post. |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 15, 2020 8:37:10 GMT
So Italy had 3 battlecruiser designs instead of the two i linked in the first post.
Correct. And I think that's where Bob's scholarship enters. I think he was the first English speaker to recognize Number 45367 as being represented by the model the late Stefano Sappino photographed in the La Spezia museum.
Regards
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2020 8:43:22 GMT
So Italy had 3 battlecruiser designs instead of the two i linked in the first post. Correct. And I think that's where Bob's scholarship enters. I think he was the first English speaker to recognize Number 45367 as being represented by the model the late Stefano Sappino photographed in the La Spezia museum.
Regards
So you are saying this is the Design 45367 Battlecruiser i posted and you mentioned was not the Design 1928 Battlecruiser. |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 15, 2020 8:49:15 GMT
So you are saying this is the Design 45367 Battlecruiser i posted and you mentioned was not the Design 1928 Battlecruiser.
As I recall, it dates from 1928, but it is NOT the same design as the 23,000 ton battlecruiser we generally call 'the 1928 battlecruiser' design.
Basically, there are two 1928 battlecruisers, six 15in on 23,000 tons and nine 15in on 26,500 tons.
Regards,
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2020 8:57:20 GMT
So you are saying this is the Design 45367 Battlecruiser i posted and you mentioned was not the Design 1928 Battlecruiser. As I recall, it dates from 1928, but it is NOT the same design as the 23,000 ton battlecruiser we generally call 'the 1928 battlecruiser' design.
Basically, there are two 1928 battlecruisers, six 15in on 23,000 tons and nine 15in on 26,500 tons.
Regards, Thanks for the explanation 1bigrich . Also would we be able to add this boy, battlecruiser 1921 design, to the list. Cassone’s large battlecruiser proposal, 1921Image I of battlecruiser 1921 design Image II of battlecruiser 1921 design |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 15, 2020 9:01:47 GMT
Yes, for interwar it definitely belongs. With the treaty on the horizon and the inability to finish even Francesco Caracciolo, I'm not sure if it had even a low chance of being built, but sometimes concepts have to be explored, if for nothing else than the experience they provide.
Regards,
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2020 9:08:23 GMT
Yes, for interwar it definitely belongs. With the treaty on the horizon and the inability to finish even Francesco Caracciolo, I'm not sure if it had even a low chance of being built, but sometimes concepts have to be explored, if for nothing else than the experience they provide. Regards, So we have 4 designs of which Design 1928 Battlecruiser has two designs, ore am i wrong. Design 1921 Battlecruiser Design 1928 Battlecruiser Design 45367 Battlecruiser Design 1933 Battlecruiser |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,835
Likes: 13,224
|
Post by stevep on Aug 15, 2020 11:14:04 GMT
So you are saying this is the Design 45367 Battlecruiser i posted and you mentioned was not the Design 1928 Battlecruiser.
As I recall, it dates from 1928, but it is NOT the same design as the 23,000 ton battlecruiser we generally call 'the 1928 battlecruiser' design.
Basically, there are two 1928 battlecruisers, six 15in on 23,000 tons and nine 15in on 26,500 tons.
Regards,
Thanks. Just catching up and was thinking that's a different design as it had triple turrets! 9x15" on only 26,500 tons, especially for a 1920's ship designed to go fast suggested they really skimped on the armour so probably a good idea for any sailors who might have been serving on her that she wasn't produced.
Do you know, at that tonnage were they only planning two of them as they wouldn't get three into 70ktons or where they planning on cheating with a false tonnage total?
Steve
|
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 15, 2020 11:52:05 GMT
Thanks. Just catching up and was thinking that's a different design as it had triple turrets! 9x15" on only 26,500 tons, especially for a 1920's ship designed to go fast suggested they really skimped on the armour so probably a good idea for any sailors who might have been serving on her that she wasn't produced.
Do you know, at that tonnage were they only planning two of them as they wouldn't get three into 70ktons or where they planning on cheating with a false tonnage total?
Steve
Hi Steve,
I don't think the 23,000 ton design would have been that well armored either. Renown on 23,000 tons seems like something has to give....
As far as I know, the Italian documents all say 26,500 tons, so I imagine that's what they were going to report to the other powers. I know of no evidence they were thinking of reporting Number 45367 as 23,000 tons had they been built. I doubt the other powers would have believed nine 15in guns on 23,000 tons anyway.
What I do think is more likely is that had either 1928 design been built, it would have been over the tonnage reported, just as Zara and Littorio were.
I do think if they had built either 1928 design, they might have had a better 15in gun when they commissioned the Littorios, though.
Regards,
-edit for typo
|
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Aug 15, 2020 11:53:07 GMT
So we have 4 designs of which Design 1928 Battlecruiser has two designs, ore am i wrong. Design 1921 Battlecruiser Design 1928 Battlecruiser Design 45367 Battlecruiser Design 1933 Battlecruiser
Correct for interwar Italian battlecruisers.
Regards,
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,971
Likes: 49,378
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2020 12:13:26 GMT
So we have 4 designs of which Design 1928 Battlecruiser has two designs, ore am i wrong. Design 1921 Battlecruiser Design 1928 Battlecruiser Design 45367 Battlecruiser Design 1933 Battlecruiser Correct for interwar Italian battlecruisers. Regards, Well i assume they unlike the Germans had other things to do then keep designing paper ships during the war. |
|
