Greco-Roman Peoples React To Modern World

[Zyobot]

Nov 25, 2021 5:13:01 GMT simon darkshade said:

Of the handful of people from that group who would have read the extremely niche area of interest, maybe one might have read AH works that currently sit around on one website on the internet. It is most likely that they'd fall into the category of "Read/Scanned and clicked like but not commented".

You're more likely to get more Greco-Romans reacting to captioned cat pictures than extremely dry and ill contrived niche alternate history stories, based on current people and their habits.

Yeah, didn't think so. But, so long as we're talking about absurd hypotheticals, I figured I'd mention one more that has slightly better odds of happening than a bunch of Greco-Roman settlements suddenly being ISOT'd to ~2021. I suppose you don't think highly of the Anglo/American - Nazi War, though?

In any case, I'm curious as to how they'd react to OTL histories of the World Wars. Which only a minority of people are well-informed on or have significant interest in today, but at least they know they happened (even if they're too ignorant to contribute much of anything of value). Hopefully, their all-around terribleness would demonstrate why war on that scale is no longer practical, even before we get to nukes.

[stevep]

Nov 25, 2021 14:36:24 GMT Zyobot said:

Nov 25, 2021 5:13:01 GMT simon darkshade said:

Of the handful of people from that group who would have read the extremely niche area of interest, maybe one might have read AH works that currently sit around on one website on the internet. It is most likely that they'd fall into the category of "Read/Scanned and clicked like but not commented".

You're more likely to get more Greco-Romans reacting to captioned cat pictures than extremely dry and ill contrived niche alternate history stories, based on current people and their habits.

Yeah, didn't think so. But, so long as we're talking about absurd hypotheticals, I figured I'd mention one more that has slightly better odds of happening than a bunch of Greco-Roman settlements suddenly being ISOT'd to ~2021. I suppose you don't think highly of the Anglo/American - Nazi War, though?

In any case, I'm curious as to how they'd react to OTL histories of the World Wars. Which only a minority of people are well-informed on or have significant interest in today, but at least they know they happened (even if they're too ignorant to contribute much of anything of value). Hopefully, their all-around terribleness would demonstrate why war on that scale is no longer practical, even before we get to nukes.

  I think at least the political and military figures, which would be most of the elites and probably more of the ordinary population - non-slave - than we generally think would be interested both in history and quite probably to some degree alternative history.

 On the video I fear that many in Britain would do little better.  Although hopefully they would know Berlin is in Germany and that the Nazis were German.

[Zyobot]

Nov 26, 2021 12:35:06 GMT stevep said:

Nov 25, 2021 14:36:24 GMT Zyobot said:

Yeah, didn't think so. But, so long as we're talking about absurd hypotheticals, I figured I'd mention one more that has slightly better odds of happening than a bunch of Greco-Roman settlements suddenly being ISOT'd to ~2021. I suppose you don't think highly of the Anglo/American - Nazi War, though?

In any case, I'm curious as to how they'd react to OTL histories of the World Wars. Which only a minority of people are well-informed on or have significant interest in today, but at least they know they happened (even if they're too ignorant to contribute much of anything of value). Hopefully, their all-around terribleness would demonstrate why war on that scale is no longer practical, even before we get to nukes.

  I think at least the political and military figures, which would be most of the elites and probably more of the ordinary population - non-slave - than we generally think would be interested both in history and quite probably to some degree alternative history.

 On the video I fear that many in Britain would do little better.  Although hopefully they would know Berlin is in Germany and that the Nazis were German.

Thanks, man.

Yes, basic historical illiteracy certainly abounds and is annoying to see from upwards of 90 percent of people you interact with on a daily basis. No one’s asking them to become aficionados who might as well be historians lite, but come on! (Although, I imagine that if the Greco-Romans were sent to the AANW universe, there’d be far more reason to know what went down in World War II and how it led to the A4 taking a “Do what we say, or you die!” approach to world-policing. World War II, as fought in that universe, would probably be too insane even for them, so there’s that.)

In which case, I suppose the natural question many Romans would ask is, “If Rome didn’t rule forever, then what followed and who took its place?” The simplest answer to the latter can be given by pointing to the superpower across the Atlantic, and I assume many would be curious about how a bunch of colonial states once removed from Britannia built the most powerful nation in history. (Even if they don’t have the skills or attention span to devote to historical didacticism, and may thus content themselves with the quickest answer in the short run.)

However, that does make me wonder which post-Antiquity events and historical figures would stick out most to them? I recall working on a longer, more comprehensive list of them with explanations for the former that I haven’t completed. (Which, since I’m typing this on my phone, includes the Mongol Conquests, the Black Death, the Colombian Exchange, the Enlightenment and Industrial Revolution, the World Wars, and some others I’m currently forgetting.) Accordingly, my guess is that the figures central to these various turning points and paradigm shifts would be the ones that are most interesting to them: Genghis Khan, Christopher Columbus, Napoleon Bonaparte, and probably also a certain Austria-born dictator whose inherent notoriety and present-day recency bias assigns him “special” regard in the history books. 

[Zyobot]

Besides the World Wars, I wonder how Greco-Romans would react to the Anglo and Gallic “barbarians” not only founding what are now two of Europe’s main political players, but also having nukes (whereas Italy and Greece don’t)? The US and Russia maintaining the world’s biggest nuclear stockpiles as a holdover from the Cold War is one thing, but secondary powers the downtimers are used to treating as backwaters in desperate need of “civilizing” having them is another. Probably Israel, too, due to the land’s history of being in the crosshairs of ancient empires and the longstanding persecution of Jews in general (which makes Israel’s present-day militarism and nuclear status understandable, if surprising to Greco-Roman observers).

What Countries Have Nuclear Weapons?


The Terrifying True Scale of Nuclear Weapons

[Zyobot]

There’d be far fewer of them than Greeks and Romans, but I can imagine inquisitive Carthaginians who’ve been sent along for the ride becoming big fans of the British Empire. Sure, only a minority of them would delve into the history of Anglo-Saxon empire-building and commerce on a supreme scale, but those that do might wistfully wonder if that’s what Carthage could’ve become, had it survived. Ditto with how it’d be an “In your face!” moment for those “arrogant Romans”, which more than a few disgruntled Carthaginians would pick up on. Perhaps Hannibal might even be one of them, depending on when he’s plucked from and where he winds up.

How did The British Empire rule the World?

[Zyobot]

Given the number of Greco-Romans sent along, I can already imagine many books being written to bring them up to speed with a world thousands of years removed from them. Yes, I know literacy rates are at rock bottom by modern standards, but then that just creates a market for children's books to teach them, especially with the uptimer occupational force setting up schools for downtimer youth. More literate and worldly audiences, besides learning simple things like seven continents or how to use a computer, might also benefit from history books—whether written for a modern audience or specifically for curious Greco-Romans. Hopefully, I'm not the only one picturing Adrian Goldsworthy in his office, furiously typing up his first draft of The World After Rome. Which, I assume, will be an extensive, multi-volume work to surpass Caesar: Life of a Colossus as his great magnum opus.

[Zyobot]

Something else I've been wondering about is what they'd think of modern fencing and other melee sports? I don't know a whole lot about Greco-Roman swordplay, though I imagine it'd be a much more common skill then than it is for most people now.

Perhaps they'd find it rather linear and clearly designed for one-on-one matches, at least assuming my own experiences count for anything. (I did fencing for a couple of years.)

How To Fence: The Basics of Fencing, Taught by Olympians



Fencing Basics - Types of Swords

[Zyobot]

Since it's almost upon us now, I wonder what Greco-Romans would think of holidays modern people take for granted? Christmas, I believe, would be kinda-sorta familiar to them.

Be interesting, though, what pre-300s Christians think of it becoming its own holiday (and the day of year chosen to celebrate it).

[Zyobot]

Nov 26, 2021 12:35:06 GMT stevep said:

  I think at least the political and military figures, which would be most of the elites and probably more of the ordinary population - non-slave - than we generally think would be interested both in history and quite probably to some degree alternative history.

Expanding on this point, I wonder what the information market for more curious (and literate) Greco-Romans would look like? Since it's more their speed and they're nice distillations of years' worth of references and research, as is, I'm interested in what they think of book recommendations on historical (as well as non-historical) topics?

World War I - Ten Essential Books



World War II - Ten Essential Books

[Zyobot]

The "awkwardness level" would depend on when they're from and their particular faith, but I'm interested in what conversations between ancient priests and their modern equivalents might look like? I'm pretty sure every Roman swept up in the ISOT is familiar with Judaism, but not necessarily Christianity (let alone Islam).

Don't know how long it'd take for their paths to cross after the dust settles, but I'm now picturing a random Vestal Virgin and a modern Catholic priest having an "interesting" exchange on matters of theology and the preeminence of Christianity, though the latter may speak with an unfamiliar "accent", at first (courtesy of Ecclesiastical pronunciation). Maybe also welcoming them to any churches they wander into, the beauty and prestige of which ought to be "fun" to explain to surprised/despondent/indignant Vestals who dedicated their lives to Roman Gods who are no longer really worshipped.

[Otto Kretschmer]

It's enough that they go to Rome and see people in trousers. They gonna get what happened.

[Zyobot]

Jan 24, 2022 9:09:41 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

It's enough that they go to Rome and see people in trousers. They gonna get what happened.

Good point.

Although, not just trousers in Rome—or even Italy, in general—but pretty much everywhere. Clearly, the barbarians who overran the Roman Empire passed down their own cultural influences alongside those of the Greco-Romans, much to the latter’s chagrin.

[Otto Kretschmer]

IMO social differences will strike them much more than technology.

Cars are just wagons without a horse. Planes are manmade birds. Rifles are like a stronger crossbow.

But lack of slavery? Equality of men and women? Duh.

[Zyobot]

Jan 24, 2022 16:56:27 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

IMO social differences will strike them much more than technology.

Cars are just wagons without a horse. Planes are manmade birds. Rifles are like a stronger crossbow.

But lack of slavery? Equality of men and women? Duh.

I think it'd still baffle them just how much of a force multiplier these technologies afford, though. Cars and planes can traverse extremely long distances far faster than they could've imagined, while guns can fire multiple rounds in repeated succession, each round being both small and powerful enough to leave some nasty holes upon impact (never mind shrapnel issues!). There's also all the infrastructure and supply chains needed for their production and upkeep, such as manufacturing parts in Country A and shipping them over to be assembled in Country B, where they roll off an at least partially automated production line before being sold to the customer.

Besides, how do you think they'd react to computers and electrification? I don't think they really had a concept of electricity like we do, and while the Antikythera mechanism may have been advanced for its time, it's still leaps and bounds behind coded software that can simulate populations or smartphones with millions of times more computing power than Apollo 11, which is the same system used in the 1969 Moon landings! (We can't forget the sheer speed at which technology advances compared to the gradual pace most people throughout history are used to, so there's that.)

[Zyobot]

Jan 26, 2022 20:21:37 GMT Zyobot said:

Jan 24, 2022 16:56:27 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

IMO social differences will strike them much more than technology.

Cars are just wagons without a horse. Planes are manmade birds. Rifles are like a stronger crossbow.

But lack of slavery? Equality of men and women? Duh.

I think it'd still baffle them just how much of a force multiplier these technologies afford, though. Cars and planes can traverse extremely long distances far faster than they could've imagined, while guns can fire multiple rounds in repeated succession, each round being both small and powerful enough to leave some nasty holes upon impact (never mind shrapnel issues!). There's also all the infrastructure and supply chains needed for their production and upkeep, such as manufacturing parts in Country A and shipping them over to be assembled in Country B, where they roll off an at least partially automated production line before being sold to the customer.

Besides, how do you think they'd react to computers and electrification? I don't think they really had a concept of electricity like we do, and while the Antikythera mechanism may have been advanced for its time, it's still leaps and bounds behind coded software that can simulate populations or smartphones with millions of times more computing power than Apollo 11, which is the same system used in the 1969 Moon landings! (We can't forget the sheer speed at which technology advances compared to the gradual pace most people throughout history are used to, so there's that.)

Expanding on the latter point, what would they think of the Industrial Revolution? Even with the Greeks' inventiveness and Romans' engineering prowess, compacting that much social and technological change into a few centuries was unheard of until it happened in Britain... and then spread everywhere else.

Coal, Steam, and The Industrial Revolution: Crash Course World History #32

The Industrial Revolution: Crash Course European History #24

The Railroad Journey and the Industrial Revolution: Crash Course World History 214

Of the legion historical developments that came after their time, industrialization is inescapably one of the most important.