Greco-Roman Peoples React To Modern World

[Zyobot]

They may not receive as much attention as the conflicts themselves--nor the weapons and tactics thereof--but I wonder what Greco-Romans would think of the various war songs and sayings that have cropped up since their time? I know that certain Greco-Romans articulated their own pacifistic sentiments from time to time, but with recent quotes about how "The lamps are going out all over Europe, we shall not see them lit again in our life-time." or how “War does not determine who is right — only who is left.” holding more weight for contemporary audiences, they're more than likely to encounter these in whatever history classes they attend.

I Am a Poor Wayfaring Stranger (Original Lyrics)

[Zyobot]

Due to their vital importance in our technology-driven lives and chasmic knowledge gap over them, I wonder what Greco-Romans would make of contemporary developments in math and science? They already have a concept of math, albeit in a primitive and far less comprehensive sense than we do. Modern science, however, seems like it'd be a foreign concept to most downtimers, though its basis of consistent universal laws--and, just as importantly, our ability for us to methodically deduce, test, and draw conclusions from those laws--would amount to some combination of instructive and bewildering.

The Map of Mathematics


The Map of Physics


The Map of Chemistry


There's plenty more where those came from, for those interesting in watching more.

[Zyobot]

Maybe much of it would go over their heads, but I can imagine Greco-Roman playwrights--and aspiring artists and storytellers of more humble and less experienced origin, for that matter--taking interest in animation, even after letting the notion of movies and television sink in. Live-action portrayals are something they're used to, moving drawings synced to voices and sound design are not.

CGI Dreamworks Animation Studio Pipeline | CGMeetup

[Zyobot]

Dec 21, 2020 18:28:49 GMT Zyobot said:

Much of it would likely go over their heads anyway, but one interesting thought that occurred to me today is what they'd make of Isaac Arthur's videos (and the bizarre plausibility of hard sci-fi in general)?

Interstellar Navigation


It'd already be a lot to digest what humanity has actually achieved thus far, never mind the highly speculative futuristic stuff that the smartest among us are thinking about.

Actually, now that I mention it, I can imagine Greco-Romans being curious about what we'd consider to be futuristic concepts. We already live in a big and magical world of plenty and instant gratification, yet we also yearn for more, and are hopeful those desires will be met sometime down the line. Perhaps more of Isaac Arthur's videos can help answer those questions--and in ways that soft sci-fi can't do as effectively, no less!

Interstellar Trade & Cyclers


Life Extension


Post Scarcity Civilizations


Also, as long as we're talking about uptimer conceptions of futurism and continuous advancement, I wonder what Greco-Romans would think of aliens? This is something Isaac Arthur has also commented on, though less science-invested downtimers would be bombarded with stereotypes of little green men and flying saucers (which are limiting and likely unrealistic, but whatever).

[stevep]

May 30, 2021 1:26:33 GMT Zyobot said:

Dec 21, 2020 18:28:49 GMT Zyobot said:

Much of it would likely go over their heads anyway, but one interesting thought that occurred to me today is what they'd make of Isaac Arthur's videos (and the bizarre plausibility of hard sci-fi in general)?

Interstellar Navigation


It'd already be a lot to digest what humanity has actually achieved thus far, never mind the highly speculative futuristic stuff that the smartest among us are thinking about.

Actually, now that I mention it, I can imagine Greco-Romans being curious about what we'd consider to be futuristic concepts. We already live in a big and magical world of plenty and instant gratification, yet we also yearn for more, and are hopeful those desires will be met sometime down the line. Perhaps more of Isaac Arthur's videos can help answer those questions--and in ways that soft sci-fi can't do as effectively, no less!

Interstellar Trade & Cyclers


Life Extension


Post Scarcity Civilizations


Also, as long as we're talking about uptimer conceptions of futurism and continuous advancement, I wonder what Greco-Romans would think of aliens? This is something Isaac Arthur has also commented on, though less science-invested downtimers would be bombarded with stereotypes of little green men and flying saucers (which are limiting and likely unrealistic, but whatever).

  Zyobot,

  Haven't time to look at them at the moment but I think you have an error with the 2nd one.  Its tagged about life extensions but the image and link is to the 1st one on interstellar trade.

  Steve

[Zyobot]

May 30, 2021 9:30:58 GMT stevep said:

May 30, 2021 1:26:33 GMT Zyobot said:

Actually, now that I mention it, I can imagine Greco-Romans being curious about what we'd consider to be futuristic concepts. We already live in a big and magical world of plenty and instant gratification, yet we also yearn for more, and are hopeful those desires will be met sometime down the line. Perhaps more of Isaac Arthur's videos can help answer those questions--and in ways that soft sci-fi can't do as effectively, no less!

Interstellar Trade & Cyclers


Life Extension


Post Scarcity Civilizations


Also, as long as we're talking about uptimer conceptions of futurism and continuous advancement, I wonder what Greco-Romans would think of aliens? This is something Isaac Arthur has also commented on, though less science-invested downtimers would be bombarded with stereotypes of little green men and flying saucers (which are limiting and likely unrealistic, but whatever).

  Zyobot ,

  Haven't time to look at them at the moment but I think you have an error with the 2nd one.  Its tagged about life extensions but the image and link is to the 1st one on interstellar trade.

  Steve

Whoops! Apologies, here's the corresponding video below. Sorry about that.

Life Extension


On a separate note, as long as I'm posting, something else that occurred to me is what Greco-Roman audiences would think of all the "lessons" we've learned from history? Or, in many cases, have yet to fully hang onto and are constantly forced to re-learn them, courtesy of human stupidity winning out every few generations. 

For those who experienced the Fall of the Roman Republic, or have even read about it decades and centuries after it all played out, I can imagine them being miffed at how more contemporary elites also weren't smart enough to concede something to the common people, before their capitals were stormed and their bodies went cold way way earlier than their natural lifespan, thanks to "the rabble" having finally had enough. The French Revolution, and the Russian Revolution even more so, spring to mind right about now. I know less about the former, but as far as the latter goes, I wonder if a few Greco-Romans might draw comparisons with Caesar and Lenin, not to mention the bloody and ferocious context surrounding both leaders' ultimate rise to power? They may not be perfectly analogous, but a few downtimers are likely to argue otherwise, given statistical probability and whatnot.

The French Revolution: Crash Course World History #29


Russian Revolution and Civil War: Crash Course European History #35

[Zyobot]

Not that he'd attract as much attention as the other people mentioned here, but I can imagine numerous Greeks being embarrassed at Michael Dukakis's clownishness during the 1988 election. Probably to the point where, given his various miscues, they might've cheered on Bush the Elder, who was an actual military man with executive experience at the highest levels of government, already.

How Michael Dukakis' tank ad symbolized his 1988 campaign l FiveThirtyEight

[Zyobot]

Since humanity stretches back to long before Greco-Roman civilization emerged, I wonder what they'd think of works chronicling tens and hundreds of thousands of years of history? Archeology not really being a thing for them, I imagine that all the methods and techniques scientists use to dredge up this information and cook up their theories would intrigue many a befuddled downtimer.

The History of the World: Every Year

[stevep]

Jun 19, 2021 1:00:39 GMT Zyobot said:

Since humanity stretches back to long before Greco-Roman civilization emerged, I wonder what they'd think of works chronicling tens and hundreds of thousands of years of history? Archeology not really being a thing for them, I imagine that all the methods and techniques scientists use to dredge up this information and cook up their theories would intrigue many a befuddled downtimer.

The History of the World: Every Year

  The age of human civilization, let alone the Earth and the sheer size of the universe would definitely shock them.  It would also undermine both ancient pre-Christian religions and also to a lesser degree the Christian ones among those brought forward to our time.  In both cases their creation myths are destroyed as well as their view of the world.

[Zyobot]

Jun 19, 2021 11:26:36 GMT stevep said:

Jun 19, 2021 1:00:39 GMT Zyobot said:

Since humanity stretches back to long before Greco-Roman civilization emerged, I wonder what they'd think of works chronicling tens and hundreds of thousands of years of history? Archeology not really being a thing for them, I imagine that all the methods and techniques scientists use to dredge up this information and cook up their theories would intrigue many a befuddled downtimer.

The History of the World: Every Year

  The age of human civilization, let alone the Earth and the sheer size of the universe would definitely shock them.  It would also undermine both ancient pre-Christian religions and also to a lesser degree the Christian ones among those brought forward to our time.  In both cases their creation myths are destroyed as well as their view of the world.

Perhaps, though I wonder if more sensible religious elements might adopt a more “contextualist” approach to explaining their myths. That is, by treating them as allegories or sensationalist ways of telling an important story, while nonetheless believing that their gods are real and active in the world.

Other, less reasonable ones may just deny it all and blather about how their gods placed all those fossils and artifacts everywhere to “test” their creations’ faith. Which is rather like how modern fundamentalists tend to think, even if the exact precepts they believe in are at odds with that of diehard Evangelicals or what have you.

[Zyobot]

Since I a) mentioned it a couple of times already and b) it embodies the twenty-first century's more globalized and cosmopolitan geopolitics (for better or worse), I wonder what downtimers would think of the European Union? For one, I imagine it'd be an obvious contrast to the locally focused, conquest-driven modus operandi that they're used to, though given the years of bloodshed that reached their heights in the early twentieth century, I'd hope that at least the more fair-minded ones will understand. They may disagree as to whether it's the right solution, but the underlying intention may seem reasonable, considering how costly and impractical war between large blocs of modern nations can be.

The European Union Explained*


Granted, the above video's a bit dated, but it's the best one the YouTube algorithm recommended to me--without lots and lots of additional searching that likely wouldn't have been worth it. Still, if the whole deal with asterisks is true, downtimers might find the system very convoluted and question the EU's viability, simply for its confusing legal dynamic.

[stevep]

Jun 23, 2021 22:34:17 GMT Zyobot said:

Since I a) mentioned it a couple of times already and b) it embodies the twenty-first century's more globalized and cosmopolitan geopolitics (for better or worse), I wonder what downtimers would think of the European Union? For one, I imagine it'd be an obvious contrast to the locally focused, conquest-driven modus operandi that they're used to, though given the years of bloodshed that reached their heights in the early twentieth century, I'd hope that at least the more fair-minded ones will understand. They may disagree as to whether it's the right solution, but the underlying intention may seem reasonable, considering how costly and impractical war between large blocs of modern nations can be.

The European Union Explained*


Granted, the above video's a bit dated, but it's the best one the YouTube algorithm recommended to me--without lots and lots of additional searching that likely wouldn't have been worth it. Still, if the whole deal with asterisks is true, downtimers might find the system very convoluted and question the EU's viability, simply for its confusing legal dynamic.

  I suspect that many of them would see it as a modern day alternative to the Roman empire, albeit centred more on the barbarian northern lands rather than the Med and think of it as a way of asserting power by Europe but wondering why its military is so weak and unorganised.

[Zyobot]

Jun 24, 2021 9:12:11 GMT stevep said:

Jun 23, 2021 22:34:17 GMT Zyobot said:

Since I a) mentioned it a couple of times already and b) it embodies the twenty-first century's more globalized and cosmopolitan geopolitics (for better or worse), I wonder what downtimers would think of the European Union? For one, I imagine it'd be an obvious contrast to the locally focused, conquest-driven modus operandi that they're used to, though given the years of bloodshed that reached their heights in the early twentieth century, I'd hope that at least the more fair-minded ones will understand. They may disagree as to whether it's the right solution, but the underlying intention may seem reasonable, considering how costly and impractical war between large blocs of modern nations can be.

The European Union Explained*


Granted, the above video's a bit dated, but it's the best one the YouTube algorithm recommended to me--without lots and lots of additional searching that likely wouldn't have been worth it. Still, if the whole deal with asterisks is true, downtimers might find the system very convoluted and question the EU's viability, simply for its confusing legal dynamic.

  I suspect that many of them would see it as a modern day alternative to the Roman empire, albeit centred more on the barbarian northern lands rather than the Med and think of it as a way of asserting power by Europe but wondering why its military is so weak and unorganised.

It’s not really a fully federalized union in the same sense as the United States, and given how its member states jockey for advantages and aren’t always willing to play ball (the merits for which we can debate elsewhere), that might explain why it doesn’t have the same, unilateral investment in a combined military.

Even if they view the EU as the supranational influence that it is, it’s not clear whether you think they’d largely approve or disapprove of the underlying concept? Certainly, it’s globalistic, and Germany does wield considerable power within the system. However, given how they’d advanced in the thousands of years since their time, I’m not sure if downtimers would view the lands that used to be Germania as all that barbaric anymore. Not that it means they’d automatically have a positive impression, of course.

[Zyobot]

They're probably not the only ones to have experienced this, but I wonder how veterans of the Battle of Teutoburg Forest would relate to modern Vietnam War or Soviet-Afghan War veterans? I was once told, back on AH.com, that Greco-Romans would find America's withdrawal from Indochina "cowardly", but given how they can also relate to unconventional guerillas who subvert conventional firepower and demoralize the troops sent to march in, maybe they'd be less condemnatory than one might think.

That, and for as many luxuries as American soldiers enjoyed that the Romans never could've imagined having, they also had to contend with IEDs, fast-paced modern warfare, and nonstop combat that offered even fewer breathers than their WW2 vet dads got. Not to mention the nasty array of wonder-weapons--flamethrowers, napalm, Agent Orange, and 'round the clock bombing campaigns--that bring their own brand of shock value into play.

Operation Rolling Thunder (1965 - 68)


Operation Linebacker II - The B-52s go to Hanoi, 1972 - Animated


The countries caught in the crossfire also have to contend with psychological scars and lots of unexploded bombs that still kill and maim innocent people to this day, so there's that.

[Zyobot]

Not like they'll be setting foot on any battlefields anytime soon, but I can easily imagine Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great regularly watching modern war documentaries. Greatest Tank Battles comes to mind for me, though there are no doubt others that'd attract their attention.

Soviet Storm: WW2 in the East might be a good one to show them, given the unmatched scale of what it depicts. Just about anything concerning the larger, more decisive conflicts of the last two millennia or so would be similarly profound, I imagine.