Greco-Roman Peoples React To Modern World

[stevep]

Jun 29, 2021 13:08:49 GMT Zyobot said:

Not like they'll be setting foot on any battlefields anytime soon, but I can easily imagine Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great regularly watching modern war documentaries. Greatest Tank Battles comes to mind for me, though there are no doubt others that'd attract their attention.

Soviet Storm: WW2 in the East might be a good one to show them, given the unmatched scale of what it depicts. Just about anything concerning the larger, more decisive conflicts of the last two millennia or so would be similarly profound, I imagine.

  Its distinctly dated now but the classic The_World_at_War TV series could be a good intro for the last big direct clash between the great powers.  Although once they adjust to the language and terminology they might prefer old fashioned books, of which there are of course tens of thousands available. 

  Mind you thinking about it any study of either world wars is likely to have the Romans frustrated if not enraged at the general view of Italian incompetence and failure in those conflicts.

[Zyobot]

Jun 30, 2021 14:57:35 GMT stevep said:

Jun 29, 2021 13:08:49 GMT Zyobot said:

Not like they'll be setting foot on any battlefields anytime soon, but I can easily imagine Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great regularly watching modern war documentaries. Greatest Tank Battles comes to mind for me, though there are no doubt others that'd attract their attention.

Soviet Storm: WW2 in the East might be a good one to show them, given the unmatched scale of what it depicts. Just about anything concerning the larger, more decisive conflicts of the last two millennia or so would be similarly profound, I imagine.

  Its distinctly dated now but the classic The_World_at_War TV series could be a good intro for the last big direct clash between the great powers.  Although once they adjust to the language and terminology they might prefer old fashioned books, of which there are of course tens of thousands available. 

  Mind you thinking about it any study of either world wars is likely to have the Romans frustrated if not enraged at the general view of Italian incompetence and failure in those conflicts.

I haven't seen it myself, but a glance at that Wiki entry makes it seem comprehensive enough. Since it starts with the aftermath of the last great conflict, it may be beneficial to cover World War One before watching something on its bigger, even more devastating brother from twenty-five down the lines. Books may be more their speed, though it may be hard to choose a good introductory volume to start with, given the size of the selection you offer. It's impressionistic, but I once floated The Guns of August as a work Julius Caesar might page through in his study, so perhaps you can expect similar of Alexander the Great and the other great military minds of Antiquity, when they have a few hours to spare.

Italian incompetence won't go down well, though I'm equally curious as to how Greece's performance will be received? For one, the fact they were invaded and partitioned between Axis forces will make many downtimers shake their heads in dismay and force them to acknowledge that once-barbaric powers have overtaken them in a way that hits much closer to home. Not to mention the civil war and military junta that followed in the decades thereafter, with Greece itself having gone from first-rate progenitor of Classical Civilization to an unstable proxy suborned to the geostrategic designs of far greater powers. It'd definitely make an illustrative case study in how the balance of power can change so dramatically over a few thousand years, I imagine.

[stevep]

Jun 30, 2021 19:42:15 GMT Zyobot said:

Jun 30, 2021 14:57:35 GMT stevep said:

  Its distinctly dated now but the classic The_World_at_War TV series could be a good intro for the last big direct clash between the great powers.  Although once they adjust to the language and terminology they might prefer old fashioned books, of which there are of course tens of thousands available. 

  Mind you thinking about it any study of either world wars is likely to have the Romans frustrated if not enraged at the general view of Italian incompetence and failure in those conflicts.

I haven't seen it myself, but a glance at that Wiki entry makes it seem comprehensive enough. Since it starts with the aftermath of the last great conflict, it may be beneficial to cover World War One before watching something on its bigger, even more devastating brother from twenty-five down the lines. Books may be more their speed, though it may be hard to choose a good introductory volume to start with, given the size of the selection you offer. It's impressionistic, but I once floated The Guns of August as a work Julius Caesar might page through in his study, so perhaps you can expect similar of Alexander the Great and the other great military minds of Antiquity, when they have a few hours to spare.

Italian incompetence won't go down well, though I'm equally curious as to how Greece's performance will be received? For one, the fact they were invaded and partitioned between Axis forces will make many downtimers shake their heads in dismay and force them to acknowledge that once-barbaric powers have overtaken them in a way that hits much closer to home. Not to mention the civil war and military junta that followed in the decades thereafter, with Greece itself having gone from first-rate progenitor of Classical Civilization to an unstable proxy suborned to the geostrategic designs of far greater powers. It'd definitely make an illustrative case study in how the balance of power can change so dramatically over a few thousand years, I imagine.

  I did think to mention the decline of Greek influence and population.  They would probably be shocked most by the fact that the traditional stronghold of Greek culture in western Anatolia have been overwhelmed by barbarian [i.e. Turkish] invaders from central Asia and that Greece is now largely confined to only part of the area they had in classical times.

[Zyobot]

Jul 1, 2021 10:26:23 GMT stevep said:

Jun 30, 2021 19:42:15 GMT Zyobot said:

I haven't seen it myself, but a glance at that Wiki entry makes it seem comprehensive enough. Since it starts with the aftermath of the last great conflict, it may be beneficial to cover World War One before watching something on its bigger, even more devastating brother from twenty-five down the lines. Books may be more their speed, though it may be hard to choose a good introductory volume to start with, given the size of the selection you offer. It's impressionistic, but I once floated The Guns of August as a work Julius Caesar might page through in his study, so perhaps you can expect similar of Alexander the Great and the other great military minds of Antiquity, when they have a few hours to spare.

Italian incompetence won't go down well, though I'm equally curious as to how Greece's performance will be received? For one, the fact they were invaded and partitioned between Axis forces will make many downtimers shake their heads in dismay and force them to acknowledge that once-barbaric powers have overtaken them in a way that hits much closer to home. Not to mention the civil war and military junta that followed in the decades thereafter, with Greece itself having gone from first-rate progenitor of Classical Civilization to an unstable proxy suborned to the geostrategic designs of far greater powers. It'd definitely make an illustrative case study in how the balance of power can change so dramatically over a few thousand years, I imagine.

  I did think to mention the decline of Greek influence and population.  They would probably be shocked most by the fact that the traditional stronghold of Greek culture in western Anatolia have been overwhelmed by barbarian [i.e. Turkish] invaders from central Asia and that Greece is now largely confined to only part of the area they had in classical times.

Yeah, that’s bound to piss many of them off. Although, like I said before, it’d make a very clear and intimate case study demonstrating how the balance of power can wildly fluctuate over the years. There are examples that hit much further from home, of course. Namely the rise of Britain, France, Spain, and the Netherlands as the preeminent colonial powers of Modernity, with Russia helping itself to a colossal swath of land eastward—and far larger than anything Rome has ever ruled, at that.

Irate Greeks aside, plenty of Romans—or at least, those who lived too early to see the writing on the wall, before its western half was overrun by northern barbarians—would weep bitterly over the Empire’s dissolution into a bunch of separate countries across Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa. Ditto with Italy’s less-than-impressive standing in the world nowadays, whereas the once-tribal “barbarian” powers of Britain, France, and now Germany are far more influential in global affairs, even long past their prime as empires.

[Zyobot]

Kind of funny, but I feel like explaining modern academic disciplines and what they're about to Greco-Romans would go something like this:

Kelso on Career Day (That 70's Show)


Hopefully, any educators who teach downtimer students these complex subjects would be able to cater to their frame of reference enough for them to understand. You'd certainly get some brainy ones who don't need much clarification, but the same can't be said for every incoming Greco-Roman student.

[Zyobot]

He's not as big of a name as Genghis Khan or Napoleon, but I can't help but wonder what Greco-Romans would make of other statesmen who set the tone for the modern age, such as Otto Von Bismarck? Considering how he turned Germany from a bunch of disparate states into a unified empire that could stand toe-to-toe with Britain, France, and Russia, I imagine he'd be acclaimed enough to warrant their notice.

[Zyobot]

Bit late to post it, but it'd be interesting to see downtimer reactions to videos like this. I don't know that Greco-Roman soldiers ever had the opportunity to personally reconcile with their one-time enemies like these men had, but if not, I think it'd be a very profound and thought-provoking watch for them. Even if not, I'd at least hope they respect the Greatest Generation for what they endured and sacrificed to ensure the best possible future for their children and grandchildren. Standing on the shoulders of giants, indeed.

Iwo Jima - Once Enemies, Now Friends


Godspeed to those GIs, wherever they go when their time on Earth is up.

[Zyobot]

We've already discussed their likely reactions to modern elections, especially in the US. However, since they've been recorded for future viewing, it'd be interesting to see what they think of being able to watch election results unfold long after the actual broadcasts took place.

CBS NEWS ELECTION NIGHT 1964 COVERAGE - 6.30 P.M E.T - 2.00 A.M E.T


Election Night 1972 ABC News Coverage


Election Night 1984 NBC News Coverage


Particularly lopsided elections might've happened in the Roman Republic and in various Greek city-states, but I doubt they experienced the same euphoria (or despair) that comes with contemporary Election Night landslides, such as the three examples I included above. They'd probably be curious as to why no such blowouts have occurred post-2000, but that threatens to segue into a different discussion (which I'm also fine having, mind you).

[Zyobot]

Considering the once-in-forever opportunity this presents, I assume that scholars like Mary Beard and Adrian Goldsworthy would leap at the prospect of studying Greco-Roman communities--taken from various times and places throughout a thousand-year period--up close and personally. How likely said Greco-Romans are to allow uptimer academics in is more dubious, however.

I do have a draft for a story based on this premise lying around where some uptimer professionals do interact with downtimer immigrants, but that's a) based more on my personal impressions and b) occurs in a context in which Greco-Romans have to play "nice" with the uptimers hosting them. Which, in various cases, means getting along with the legions of inquisitive archeologists, historians, linguists, and scientists eager to meet and learn from them in person.

[Zyobot]

Not that I've played it myself, but since I've heard plenty about it in AH circles, I wonder what they'd think of games like Hearts of Iron? As said before, you'd have to explain what video games are first, as well as how the AI and decision-making process in turn-based strategy games like this one work (much of which will go over their heads, unfortunately). Still, I think that more technically savvy and/or history-interested Greco-Romans would enjoy the game, or even experiment with scenarios involving the Classical World (i.e. a mod set during the Crisis of the Third Century or what have you).

They'd probably have to get a feel for mods and mod-making first, of course, which means playing already-existing Hearts of Iron mods to see how they like it. Most of which deal in contemporary AH, such as Kaiserreich or The New Order: Last Days of Europe, so they'll need a good dollop of real-world historical context in advance, in order to make heads or tails of the factions and players involved.

[stevep]

Jul 19, 2021 22:41:26 GMT Zyobot said:

Not that I've played it myself, but since I've heard plenty about it in AH circles, I wonder what they'd think of games like Hearts of Iron? As said before, you'd have to explain what video games are first, as well as how the AI and decision-making process in turn-based strategy games like this one work (much of which will go over their heads, unfortunately). Still, I think that more technically savvy and/or history-interested Greco-Romans would enjoy the game, or even experiment with scenarios involving the Classical World (i.e. a mod set during the Crisis of the Third Century or what have you).

They'd probably have to get a feel for mods and mod-making first, of course, which means playing already-existing Hearts of Iron mods to see how they like it. Most of which deal in contemporary AH, such as Kaiserreich or The New Order: Last Days of Europe, so they'll need a good dollop of real-world historical context in advance, in order to make heads or tails of the factions and players involved.

  I suspect that once they adjust to the background, both historical and technological and the basic rules a lot of them could probably be better good at it.  At least those with military and/or civil government experience since its pretty much what their used to.  Many could possibly see it as training for real life for their [male no doubt] children.  Possibly also if your got commanders and rulers from across the Med and the centuries a lot of them might seek to prove who's the best in the computer world as they no longer have the capacity to do it with large armies.

[Zyobot]

Jul 20, 2021 9:40:09 GMT stevep said:

  I suspect that once they adjust to the background, both historical and technological and the basic rules a lot of them could probably be better good at it.  At least those with military and/or civil government experience since its pretty much what their used to.

Likely, but it still oversimplifies the day-to-day decision-making process and presents them with preset options, rather than forcing them to come up with their own strategies. The stakes are considerably lower, too, so no one has to worry about their head literally being lopped off.

Jul 20, 2021 9:40:09 GMT stevep said:

Many could possibly see it as training for real life for their [male no doubt] children.

To what end, exactly? No downtimer will be conquering land or plotting power plays anytime soon, given that the UN has put its foot down and already provided a "demonstration" of what it can do, should the Greco-Romans step out of line. If, however, you're referring to a potential use for aspiring (male) politicians in the post-ISOT world, that'd make more sense. However, enforced gender-equality laws may convince more enlightened and/or pragmatic political families to have their daughters play, too.

Jul 20, 2021 9:40:09 GMT stevep said:

Possibly also if your got commanders and rulers from across the Med and the centuries a lot of them might seek to prove who's the best in the computer world as they no longer have the capacity to do it with large armies.

Yeah, that's more or less how I picture it myself. It's impressionistic, but I can visualize some admixture of Greco-Roman military commanders and statesmen from over the thousand-year period--such as Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, and/or any Northern European warlords caught in the ISOT--sitting in the same dark room together, their butts in beanbag chairs as they eat snacks and play their latest round of Hearts of Iron on whatever the most difficult setting is. And being very thorough and methodical in keeping track of their victories, and the strategies that either helped or hamstrung them throughout their previous attempts.

Not too sure what they'd think of other mods, but I can imagine that, as men who were well-accustomed to bloodshed and instability themselves, they'd still find Thousand Week Reich--and, even more so, The New Order: Last Days of Europe--to be too brutal and nihilistic for even their tastes. Having a regime dead set on exterminating everyone who's not a white European be the centerpiece of both games is a recipe for revulsion, especially once they're informed of what the SS does in its territory (*cue Burgundian Lullaby playing in the background*). Never mind the equally brutal measures that nearby factions have taken in response to the Reich's depravity, though I won't spoil those here (but feel free to look on TV Tropes, if you're fine with spoilers for TWR or TNO).

[Zyobot]

Returning to real-life events for a moment, I've a feeling that--as people used to civil wars and deadly power plays--the Greco-Romans would be greatly surprised at the relatively peaceful breakup of the USSR.

Something like the Yugoslav Wars from shortly thereafter, on the other hand, seem like they'd conform more to what they're accustomed to. Which was accordingly unsavory, though what they'd think of genocide and ethnic cleansing, I don't know.

[stevep]

Jul 20, 2021 15:46:12 GMT Zyobot said:

Jul 20, 2021 9:40:09 GMT stevep said:

  I suspect that once they adjust to the background, both historical and technological and the basic rules a lot of them could probably be better good at it.  At least those with military and/or civil government experience since its pretty much what their used to.

Likely, but it still oversimplifies the day-to-day decision-making process and presents them with preset options, rather than forcing them to come up with their own strategies. The stakes are considerably lower, too, so no one has to worry about their head literally being lopped off.

Jul 20, 2021 9:40:09 GMT stevep said:

Many could possibly see it as training for real life for their [male no doubt] children.

To what end, exactly? No downtimer will be conquering land or plotting power plays anytime soon, given that the UN has put its foot down and already provided a "demonstration" of what it can do, should the Greco-Romans step out of line. If, however, you're referring to a potential use for aspiring (male) politicians in the post-ISOT world, that'd make more sense. However, enforced gender-equality laws may convince more enlightened and/or pragmatic political families to have their daughters play, too.

Jul 20, 2021 9:40:09 GMT stevep said:

Possibly also if your got commanders and rulers from across the Med and the centuries a lot of them might seek to prove who's the best in the computer world as they no longer have the capacity to do it with large armies.

Yeah, that's more or less how I picture it myself. It's impressionistic, but I can visualize some admixture of Greco-Roman military commanders and statesmen from over the thousand-year period--such as Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Augustus, and/or any Northern European warlords caught in the ISOT--sitting in the same dark room together, their butts in beanbag chairs as they eat snacks and play their latest round of Hearts of Iron on whatever the most difficult setting is. And being very thorough and methodical in keeping track of their victories, and the strategies that either helped or hamstrung them throughout their previous attempts.

Not too sure what they'd think of other mods, but I can imagine that, as men who were well-accustomed to bloodshed and instability themselves, they'd still find Thousand Week Reich--and, even more so, The New Order: Last Days of Europe--to be too brutal and nihilistic for even their tastes. Having a regime dead set on exterminating everyone who's not a white European be the centerpiece of both games is a recipe for revulsion, especially once they're informed of what the SS does in its territory (*cue Burgundian Lullaby playing in the background*). Never mind the equally brutal measures that nearby factions have taken in response to the Reich's depravity, though I won't spoil those here (but feel free to look on TV Tropes, if you're fine with spoilers for TWR or TNO).

  Zyobot ,

  In part because they can't do it in real life.  As I suspect for at least the initial generation it would still be considered a skill that should be learnt in case it was ever needed/they got the chance to use it - just because the latter is extremely unlikely doesn't mean they would accept that idea.  People tend to cling to old traditions habits and values, probably more so when their had a huge culture shock as here.

  Had a brief look at one of those links before I had to go to work and sounds totally insane.  Trying to avoid getting drawn into the black hole that is TV Trope so will say no more.

  One other thing that occurred to me with reference to slavery in the ancient world.  What happens if one of the people brought back was a certain Thracian - ironically played most famously by a Norwegian - and he managed to survive until the uptimers arrive?  Or for that matter Hannibal say?  Or for that matter say Brutus?

  Steve

[simon darkshade]

Hearts of Iron? I believe that, once they could grasp the concept of a computer game, war simulation and all the rest, they would view it as a novelty, but ultimately a childish game extremely divorced from reality. This would be especially true of any great commanders.

Why? HoI, even in its older and more rigorous versions, gets caught up in its own numbers and formulas that are utterly divorced from reality. There is depth, but only of their own terms and systems. The more modern versions, such as HoI4 are much more dumbed down and caught up in its own hubris, it’s own language and its own definitions.
It mostly deals with logistics and economics quite airily and from the start of the game, it becomes unimportant; the nadir of this was the decision not to include money, GDP or any real sense of an economy in HoI4.

Simply put, there is little relationship with reality. Consider, for a moment, the ideal divisional template of 7 infantry and 2 artillery battalions. This has no basis in anything real and is simply ideal because it fits their arbitrary parameters on divisional ‘width’, something that doesn’t really come up in any real sense outside of a very narrow set of circumstances. The fighting power of a division is similarly arbitrary and very much wrapped up in the tactical/gear head mindset, rather than any of the actual work done by the likes of Van Creveld.

Paradox did have a survey out at one point and I saved this response:

“HoI4 is more disappointing than frustrating, as it sets its sights low and consistently fails to achieve them. At its heart, it is dumbed down and glorifies in it, particularly in its abstractions that have little relationship with reality. It sidelines the economy and money, pays lip service to a decent air warfare system, lacks any depth of events and mistakes shallow choices for real meaning and veracity. It has pared back the best features of previous installments in favour of...graphics and music? It isn’t hard to play, but it is tedious. There is little sense that the player is actually doing anything meaningful, whilst at the same time the AI is so constrained as to present little challenge.”

I really don’t think that Alexander or Caesar would be impressed by it.