Vichy type alternate capitals

[James G]

I wrote a story a few weeks back where following a defeat in a war where the UK was similar to post-WW2 Germany in being divided, there were two capitals: one in London and one in Derby.
Today, I was thinking about other countries where defeat in war could see the capital moved - de jure or de facto - elsewhere. I am not talking about planned moves in peacetime, but a Vichy type situation.

What ideas do others have? For America? China? Russia? Smaller countries? 

[american2006]

For America, there are many options. If DC fell, most of the East cost (depending on the time period) is off, in a War of 1812 scenario, Boston, Philly, NYC, or Charleston are options. For the Civil War, Chicago, Detroit, and Boston. In more modern periods, San Francisco and Los Angeles could work, as could potential Seattle especially if the East Coast is invaded. If both coasts are under attack, Chicago, Kansas City, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio are options. In World War Two like Vichy, I’ll go with a non-traditional choice and say Denver or Salt Lake City, they are defendable.

[stevep]

Nov 18, 2020 19:33:42 GMT James G said:

I wrote a story a few weeks back where following a defeat in a war where the UK was similar to post-WW2 Germany in being divided, there were two capitals: one in London and one in Derby.
Today, I was thinking about other countries where defeat in war could see the capital moved - de jure or de facto - elsewhere. I am not talking about planned moves in peacetime, but a Vichy type situation.

What ideas do others have? For America? China? Russia? Smaller countries? 

  James G,

  I think as american2006 refers in his reply a lot would depend on when and who's inflicting the defence and hence what territories are 'lost' whether pending a formal peace [which didn't actually come] in the case of Vichy or 'permanently' in the case of Germany post 45.

  For the US I think before ~1950 I would suspect an east coast site would be preferred if available, or alternatively possibly in the Great Lakes area as those regions are the demographic and economic centres of power.  Later places like Los Angels might be options, especially if the defeat meant the bulk of the east coast was occupied.  Or possibly somewhere like Denver or St Paul's as a central location.

  For China the traditional capital sites are either Beijing or around the Nanking area [not sure of its current name].  If most of the eastern coastal region was unavailable then somewhere like Chunking as in WWII or possibly Sian/Xian which is still in the north but inland and the original seat of one of the early dynasties.  Canton/Guangzhou could be an option in the far south if for some reason that was the preferred location.  [You might get more than one if a defeated China ended up splinted as it often has in the past.

  Russia the obvious historical alternative is St Petersburg although if Moscow is unavailable due to a foreign occupation its likely to be as well.  Might be somewhere on the Volga or in the Urals, or western Siberia if the centre of an 'independent' Russia is forced that far east.

  Steve

[american2006]

Nov 18, 2020 22:16:17 GMT stevep said:

Nov 18, 2020 19:33:42 GMT James G said:

I wrote a story a few weeks back where following a defeat in a war where the UK was similar to post-WW2 Germany in being divided, there were two capitals: one in London and one in Derby.
Today, I was thinking about other countries where defeat in war could see the capital moved - de jure or de facto - elsewhere. I am not talking about planned moves in peacetime, but a Vichy type situation.

What ideas do others have? For America? China? Russia? Smaller countries? 

  James G ,

  I think as american2006 refers in his reply a lot would depend on when and who's inflicting the defence and hence what territories are 'lost' whether pending a formal peace [which didn't actually come] in the case of Vichy or 'permanently' in the case of Germany post 45.

  For the US I think before ~1950 I would suspect an east coast site would be preferred if available, or alternatively possibly in the Great Lakes area as those regions are the demographic and economic centres of power.  Later places like Los Angels might be options, especially if the defeat meant the bulk of the east coast was occupied.  Or possibly somewhere like Denver or St Paul's as a central location.

  For China the traditional capital sites are either Beijing or around the Nanking area [not sure of its current name].  If most of the eastern coastal region was unavailable then somewhere like Chunking as in WWII or possibly Sian/Xian which is still in the north but inland and the original seat of one of the early dynasties.  Canton/Guangzhou could be an option in the far south if for some reason that was the preferred location.  [You might get more than one if a defeated China ended up splinted as it often has in the past.

  Russia the obvious historical alternative is St Petersburg although if Moscow is unavailable due to a foreign occupation its likely to be as well.  Might be somewhere on the Volga or in the Urals, or western Siberia if the centre of an 'independent' Russia is forced that far east.

  Steve

If Russia was that far west, would it really be Russia still?

Anyway, another important question to ask is when does the invasion occur. Because depending on when, anywhere from Boston to LA could be a capital.

[lordroel]

Nov 18, 2020 20:07:14 GMT american2006 said:

For America, there are many options. If DC fell, most of the East cost (depending on the time period) is off, in a War of 1812 scenario, Boston, Philly, NYC, or Charleston are options. For the Civil War, Chicago, Detroit, and Boston. In more modern periods, San Francisco and Los Angeles could work, as could potential Seattle especially if the East Coast is invaded. If both coasts are under attack, Chicago, Kansas City, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio are options. In World War Two like Vichy, I’ll go with a non-traditional choice and say Denver or Salt Lake City, they are defendable.

Heard once in a book, ore TV series about Omaha, Nebraska being a capitol of the United States.

[stevep]

Nov 18, 2020 23:13:47 GMT american2006 said:

Nov 18, 2020 22:16:17 GMT stevep said:

  James G ,

  I think as american2006 refers in his reply a lot would depend on when and who's inflicting the defence and hence what territories are 'lost' whether pending a formal peace [which didn't actually come] in the case of Vichy or 'permanently' in the case of Germany post 45.

  For the US I think before ~1950 I would suspect an east coast site would be preferred if available, or alternatively possibly in the Great Lakes area as those regions are the demographic and economic centres of power.  Later places like Los Angels might be options, especially if the defeat meant the bulk of the east coast was occupied.  Or possibly somewhere like Denver or St Paul's as a central location.

  For China the traditional capital sites are either Beijing or around the Nanking area [not sure of its current name].  If most of the eastern coastal region was unavailable then somewhere like Chunking as in WWII or possibly Sian/Xian which is still in the north but inland and the original seat of one of the early dynasties.  Canton/Guangzhou could be an option in the far south if for some reason that was the preferred location.  [You might get more than one if a defeated China ended up splinted as it often has in the past.

  Russia the obvious historical alternative is St Petersburg although if Moscow is unavailable due to a foreign occupation its likely to be as well.  Might be somewhere on the Volga or in the Urals, or western Siberia if the centre of an 'independent' Russia is forced that far east.

  Steve

If Russia was that far west, would it really be Russia still?

Anyway, another important question to ask is when does the invasion occur. Because depending on when, anywhere from Boston to LA could be a capital.

  american2006,

  Do you mean east rather than west?  If its still predominantly Russian in language and culture then I would say yes.  If its the most powerful/important such Russian state not under some foreign occupation then, like Vichy OTL its likely to get the bulk of international recognition, at least initially.  If there's some equivalent of the Free French that is in opposition to this Russia state and the opposition gains considerable foreign support then this might change over time.

  Steve

[american2006]

Nov 19, 2020 15:47:34 GMT stevep said:

Nov 18, 2020 23:13:47 GMT american2006 said:

If Russia was that far west, would it really be Russia still?

Anyway, another important question to ask is when does the invasion occur. Because depending on when, anywhere from Boston to LA could be a capital.

  american2006,

  Do you mean east rather than west?  If its still predominantly Russian in language and culture then I would say yes.  If its the most powerful/important such Russian state not under some foreign occupation then, like Vichy OTL its likely to get the bulk of international recognition, at least initially.  If there's some equivalent of the Free French that is in opposition to this Russia state and the opposition gains considerable foreign support then this might change over time.

  Steve

My apologies, I did mean East. But if Russia were driven out to Siberia, there’d be diffusion with the cultures already there, and it would evolve like the Byzantine empire from Rome to no longer be Russia.

[stevep]

Nov 19, 2020 15:57:46 GMT american2006 said:

Nov 19, 2020 15:47:34 GMT stevep said:

  american2006 ,

  Do you mean east rather than west?  If its still predominantly Russian in language and culture then I would say yes.  If its the most powerful/important such Russian state not under some foreign occupation then, like Vichy OTL its likely to get the bulk of international recognition, at least initially.  If there's some equivalent of the Free French that is in opposition to this Russia state and the opposition gains considerable foreign support then this might change over time.

  Steve

My apologies, I did mean East. But if Russia were driven out to Siberia, there’d be diffusion with the cultures already there, and it would evolve like the Byzantine empire from Rome to no longer be Russia.

  No problem.  I think the vast majority of the people in Siberia are ethnic Russia and the remaining original tribes relatively few in total number.  Of course if you got major immigration from say central Asia or - more likely probably China that could change fairly rapidly.