stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 6, 2021 11:29:58 GMT
A half measure between just Britain and some territories and the entire Anglo-sphere might be to include say the three Anglo dominions, i.e. Canada, Australia and New Zealand. That would definitely make them along with Britain the super-power of the new combined world. Okay, that sounds like a pretty reasonable compromise to me. Perhaps when they reestablish contact with one another, they'll probably align into a more tight-knit "Anglospheric Union" that serves as a political alliance and trading bloc (becoming separate dominions of a resurrected British Empire seems like too much of a stretch to me). In which case: Great Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand being sent to 21 A.D. it is, then!
And, having made that proclamation, perhaps I should create a separate ASB thread based around this idea. Hopefully, it'll be up pretty soon.
Agreed. It definitely wouldn't be a British empire with the others having any subordinate status. Likely to be a loose federation rather than any tight political status but they would support each other when needed and would provide a decent balance of resources. [Plus I suspect Australia would definitely prefer being somewhat cooler after the wild-fires and other extreme weather events their had recently.]
I could see the big issues would be:
a) Relations with neighbours, both powerful ones like the Roman empire and the multiple of smaller tribal states such as in N America south of Canada, Ireland and Germany/Scandinavia for Britain and whatever is in the Indo-China region. How much you interact with them or not and whether you try and uplift them and if so in which ways. Also there will be a lot of moral issues about practices in many regions, slavery, human sacrifice, gladiatorial games etc.
b) Religion, with a certain young man in Palestine attracting some possibly unwelcome attention  while no real Christian churches and organisations exist yet. Do the Catholics seek to select a new pope, look to Christ or what for instance. Similarly what do the up-time Muslims do? Can they be certain will all the changes Mohammad will still turn up in ~600 years or do they seek to 'liberate' their holy cities? Jews will have to decide what they want to do about their people in the AD21 world as well along with Buddhists and Hindus and probably some other groups. Others such as Sikhs are like Islam in that their religion doesn't exist yet so have that problem to resolve. Of course the uptime as well as down-time governments are unlikely to be happy with groups seeking to wander off into the down-time world, even if they think its for the best of reasons.
c) Ditto with any foreigners in the up-time locations. Do they feel any identity with the down-time populations. Not to mention say military or other adventurers who might be motivated by personal desires to say build their own kingdom somewhere in the down-time areas.
Probably best if I wait before writing more to see what you actually set up.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 6, 2021 16:13:59 GMT
'1898 Otto Von Bismarck SI To 1938 Adolf Hitler'. He also gains Adolf's memories in the process, so that he's not too out-of-place to be an effectual leader in these new circumstances of his.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 6, 2021 16:26:07 GMT
'1898 Otto Von Bismarck SI To 1938 Adolf Hitler'. He also gains Adolf's memories in the process, so that he's not too out-of-place to be an effectual leader in these new circumstances of his. That is going to be interesting, at least we know he is not going to bring back the former kaiser as that is the person who fired him in the first place when he was Otto Von Bismarck. |
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 6, 2021 16:30:20 GMT
'1898 Otto Von Bismarck SI To 1938 Adolf Hitler'. He also gains Adolf's memories in the process, so that he's not too out-of-place to be an effectual leader in these new circumstances of his. That is going to be interesting, at least we know he is not going to bring back the former kaiser as that is the person who fired him in the first place when he was Otto Von Bismarck. I wonder how he'd get along with his various subordinates, though? Chiefly Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, and the rest, who are still a band of virulently murderous psychopaths with terrible agendas for Germany. My feeling is that "Hitler" won't be happy with the various limitations slapped unto him by Versailles and will still want to re-militarize anyway, especially considering the state of affairs in Eastern Europe. How he'd deal with Britain and France in principle so that he can actually rebuild Germany's armed forces with little to no repercussions, I don't know.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 6, 2021 16:33:29 GMT
That is going to be interesting, at least we know he is not going to bring back the former kaiser as that is the person who fired him in the first place when he was Otto Von Bismarck. I wonder how he'd get along with his various subordinates, though? Chiefly Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, and the rest, who are still a band of virulently murderous psychopaths with terrible agendas for Germany. My feeling is that "Hitler" won't be happy with the various limitations slapped unto him by Versailles and will still want to re-militarize anyway, especially considering the state of affairs in Eastern Europe. How he'd deal with Britain and France in principle so that he can actually rebuild Germany's armed forces with little to no repercussions, I don't know.
They will end up getting replaced by those he can trust and who do not plan to stab him in the back. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 6, 2021 22:55:41 GMT
I wonder how he'd get along with his various subordinates, though? Chiefly Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, and the rest, who are still a band of virulently murderous psychopaths with terrible agendas for Germany. My feeling is that "Hitler" won't be happy with the various limitations slapped unto him by Versailles and will still want to re-militarize anyway, especially considering the state of affairs in Eastern Europe. How he'd deal with Britain and France in principle so that he can actually rebuild Germany's armed forces with little to no repercussions, I don't know.
They will end up getting replaced by those he can trust and who do not plan to stab him in the back. I suppose he'd vie to have them all "disappeared" as soon as he finds more trustworthy subordinates. Precisely who he'd replace them with, I don't know. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 7, 2021 10:30:26 GMT
That is going to be interesting, at least we know he is not going to bring back the former kaiser as that is the person who fired him in the first place when he was Otto Von Bismarck. I wonder how he'd get along with his various subordinates, though? Chiefly Himmler, Goering, Goebbels, and the rest, who are still a band of virulently murderous psychopaths with terrible agendas for Germany. My feeling is that "Hitler" won't be happy with the various limitations slapped unto him by Versailles and will still want to re-militarize anyway, especially considering the state of affairs in Eastern Europe. How he'd deal with Britain and France in principle so that he can actually rebuild Germany's armed forces with little to no repercussions, I don't know.
By 1938 Germany had already largely militarised. That was actually the problem as its neighbours were unwilling to stand up to it earlier when there were much better chances to strangle the monster in its cradle so to speak.
Bismarck is going to be appalled at the nature of the Nazi regime but is going to have a very difficult task destroying it and replacing it with something more moderate - albeit probably still highly conservative. Even as Hitler he's going to have probables destroying a by now well established Nazi regime without bringing himself down. Possibly he can organise a military coup to remove the party but given how central he is to it its going to be difficult separating himself from it. [If a general thought to be unhappy with the regime was approached to organise a coup against it probably the last person they would trust to do so would be Hitler himself.] True in the Night of the Long Knives he got rid of the SA to win support from the military but this is a much larger task. Plus given the crimes that the Nazis have already engaged in, many of which he has orchestrated it would be difficult not ending up on trial himself.
He might actually be willing to give the elderly Wilhelm a role, as the latter is unlikely to be a significant factor but would gain the support of royalist factions in the country, which might be useful for boosting Hitler's position. After all, unless he tells the truth, which is likely to get him locked up as insane, no one will know he's Bismarck. The greater problem is that Hitler's contempt for the monarchy and much of the old aristocracy is probably fairly well known by this time so getting such groups to trust him, and not replace him themselves once the Nazis are broken, could be more of an issue. IIRC after the conquest of the Netherlands in 1940 Wilhelm refused to have anything to do with the Nazis because he despised much of their activities.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 7, 2021 23:29:26 GMT
'Kaiserreich World Reacts To OTL'. Given that the mod only chronicles the state of the world up to 1936, perhaps we should separate it into two scenarios: one where they react to OTL leading up to 1936 and another where they react to OTL as it has progressed into 2021--and beyond.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 8, 2021 12:15:55 GMT
' Kaiserreich World Reacts To OTL'. Given that the mod only chronicles the state of the world up to 1936, perhaps we should separate it into two scenarios: one where they react to OTL leading up to 1936 and another where they react to OTL as it has progressed into 2021--and beyond.
a) Heard of it before and its a Germany wins WWI and produces a massive German dominated Europe/world isn't it?
b) By becomes aware do you mean they get details of it, that there's some sort of portal opened between the two or that all or part of Kaiserreich Germany is brought into our world at those particular times?
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 8, 2021 12:19:19 GMT
' Kaiserreich World Reacts To OTL'. Given that the mod only chronicles the state of the world up to 1936, perhaps we should separate it into two scenarios: one where they react to OTL leading up to 1936 and another where they react to OTL as it has progressed into 2021--and beyond. a) Heard of it before and its a Germany wins WWI and produces a massive German dominated Europe/world isn't it?
Yep, this would be the world of Kaiserreich.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 8, 2021 12:43:17 GMT
a) Heard of it before and its a Germany wins WWI and produces a massive German dominated Europe/world isn't it?
Yep, this would be the world of Kaiserreich.
OK thanks. So their got Belgium, probably Luxembourg and more of France, the Baltics and probably most of Belarus and a bit more. As well as a large colonial empire in Africa, the British possessions in Malaysia and by the looks of it FIC and most of China. As well as presumably a lot of protectorates in E Europe and elsewhere. If even its core territories, assuming as seems likely its armed to the teeth, turned up in 1936 it would cause total panic and probably a war, which it would be likely to win I suspect given that France has lost a good chunk of its border defences and the western powers and Soviets are only really starting to rearm at this stage.
If it turned up in 2021 then a lot would depend on its political culture and technology level but it would cause real chaos. NATO would have its European territories gutted and Putin would be very worried. The EU would also have lost a hell of a lot including its two 'capitals' Brussels and Strasbourg.
If its a case of them simply finding out of an alternative universe [i.e. OTL] or a portal of some kind between the two that's a different matter but going to have some impact on the Kaiserreich.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 8, 2021 18:20:36 GMT
a) Heard of it before and its a Germany wins WWI and produces a massive German dominated Europe/world isn't it?
b) By becomes aware do you mean they get details of it, that there's some sort of portal opened between the two or that all or part of Kaiserreich Germany is brought into our world at those particular times?
Steve That's correct; TV Tropes provides a good overview, though do beware spoilers if you'd like to avoid them. My initial meaning was that the Kaiserreich universe simply learns about the existence of OTL, as opposed to interacting with it. But, since you mention portals, we could consider including those at some point too. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 8, 2021 19:16:45 GMT
a) Heard of it before and its a Germany wins WWI and produces a massive German dominated Europe/world isn't it?
b) By becomes aware do you mean they get details of it, that there's some sort of portal opened between the two or that all or part of Kaiserreich Germany is brought into our world at those particular times?
Steve That's correct; TV Tropes provides a good overview, though do beware spoilers if you'd like to avoid them. My initial meaning was that the Kaiserreich universe simply learns about the existence of OTL, as opposed to interacting with it. But, since you mention portals, we could consider including those at some point too.
It would depend on how it learn about the existence of a parallel universe. Needs to be some way that its believed to have any actual effect. I.e. say someone writing a fiction novel that showed OTL might attract interest in general discussion but isn't really going to impact on anything significant I suspect.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 8, 2021 19:52:14 GMT
That's correct; TV Tropes provides a good overview, though do beware spoilers if you'd like to avoid them. My initial meaning was that the Kaiserreich universe simply learns about the existence of OTL, as opposed to interacting with it. But, since you mention portals, we could consider including those at some point too.
It would depend on how it learn about the existence of a parallel universe. Needs to be some way that its believed to have any actual effect. I.e. say someone writing a fiction novel that showed OTL might attract interest in general discussion but isn't really going to impact on anything significant I suspect.
Well, my thinking was that they'd learn about it in such a manner as to remove all doubt that they're looking at a parallel universe. To that end, maybe a bunch of working TVs pop up in everyone's houses, which would help them access an internet-like database of information pertaining to our timeline. Perhaps there's also a joystick-like control plugged into each TV, which would function like a computer mouse so that Kaiserreich denizens can actually navigate the database in question. This being (alternate) 1936, I'd think that the mass-materialization of TVs across Germany's households would cause quite a stir. Doubly so, considering the hotchpotch of contents they show. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 9, 2021 11:36:33 GMT
It would depend on how it learn about the existence of a parallel universe. Needs to be some way that its believed to have any actual effect. I.e. say someone writing a fiction novel that showed OTL might attract interest in general discussion but isn't really going to impact on anything significant I suspect.
Well, my thinking was that they'd learn about it in such a manner as to remove all doubt that they're looking at a parallel universe. To that end, maybe a bunch of working TVs pop up in everyone's houses, which would help them access an internet-like database of information pertaining to our timeline. Perhaps there's also a joystick-like control plugged into each TV, which would function like a computer mouse so that Kaiserreich denizens can actually navigate the database in question. This being (alternate) 1936, I'd think that the mass-materialization of TVs across Germany's households would cause quite a stir. Doubly so, considering the hotchpotch of contents they show.
Well that would cause a lot of confusion definitely. Have a lot of people scratching their heads as well. Furthermore as new spread beyond Germany reaction in other countries could be interesting as well.
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while no real Christian churches and organisations exist yet. Do the Catholics seek to select a new pope, look to Christ or what for instance. Similarly what do the up-time Muslims do? Can they be certain will all the changes Mohammad will still turn up in ~600 years or do they seek to 'liberate' their holy cities? Jews will have to decide what they want to do about their people in the AD21 world as well along with Buddhists and Hindus and probably some other groups. Others such as Sikhs are like Islam in that their religion doesn't exist yet so have that problem to resolve. Of course the uptime as well as down-time governments are unlikely to be happy with groups seeking to wander off into the down-time world, even if they think its for the best of reasons.