Zombie Apocalypse Challenge

[simon darkshade]

The notion of a zombie plague has cropped up across various forms of fiction over the last 50 years or so, ranging from the very, very silly to some thought provoking treatments.

One feature that always raises my hackles is the huge ease that zombies brush aside conventional military forces yet fall prey to the Designated Heroic Plucky Band of Plucky Heroes, who typically lack training, resources, weapons and knowledge. This is both present and somewhat subverted in the decent World War Z novel. Apparently, heavy bombers, napalm/incendiaries and concentrated artillery aren’t effective or aren’t thought as viable. 

I know this often occurs for dramatic purposes, but I’d like to propose the challenge of a “realistic” zombie plague/war, perhaps with a look towards creating a cooperative timeline as a bit of fun.

Any further thoughts or comments on the topic are welcome.

[lordroel]

Feb 7, 2021 8:34:29 GMT simon darkshade said:

The notion of a zombie plague has cropped up across various forms of fiction over the last 50 years or so, ranging from the very, very silly to some thought provoking treatments.

One feature that always raises my hackles is the huge ease that zombies brush aside conventional military forces yet fall prey to the Designated Heroic Plucky Band of Plucky Heroes, who typically lack training, resources, weapons and knowledge. This is both present and somewhat subverted in the decent World War Z novel. Apparently, heavy bombers, napalm/incendiaries and concentrated artillery aren’t effective or aren’t thought as viable. 

I know this often occurs for dramatic purposes, but I’d like to propose the challenge of a “realistic” zombie plague/war, perhaps with a look towards creating a cooperative timeline as a bit of fun.

Any further thoughts or comments on the topic are welcome.

A virus that eats away the flesh, advised to keep away from those not infected.

[simon darkshade]

There are quite a few flesh eating viruses out there; this is more of a case of one that leads to flesh eating.

We have seen two basic varieties of popular culture zombies - the slow shambling ones and the fast runners. The former are more ‘traditional’, but are nonetheless inexorable in their expansion.

World War Z has the virus come out of China, but its incubation period is rather convenient.

[lordroel]

Feb 7, 2021 9:03:30 GMT simon darkshade said:

There are quite a few flesh eating viruses out there; this is more of a case of one that leads to flesh eating.

We have seen two basic varieties of popular culture zombies - the slow shambling ones and the fast runners. The former are more ‘traditional’, but are nonetheless inexorable in their expansion.

World War Z has the virus come out of China, but its incubation period is rather convenient.

And in 28 days later it is British where the virus comes from with the zombies also being fast.

[simon darkshade]

For me, it doesn’t make sense that a disease like this would emerge in the first world out of nowhere, or even the chimp rage virus; those aren’t even zombies, in precise terms. Something coming out of Africa or some parts of Asia works a bit better logically, particularly in a pre COVID world of plentiful air travel.

Fast running zombies present a big threat, but are a bit more difficult to rationalise due to the sheer amount of energy needed to burn up and move that quickly. The slow wss walkers are more classic, yet still present a fair threat. However, I’m open to persuasion.

The key attributes of a zombie for me are: undead, flesh eating and lacking intelligence or consciousness as we know it. My background in zombies comes from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and other fantasy roleplaying games, where they don’t really present a threat; I’ve only come across the horror film/book version of zombies over the last 10 years or so.

The typical way of dealing with a zombie in these modern films seems to focus on shooting them in the head or otherwise destroying the brain, whereas the typical methods in fantasy works is to hit them with a fireball/other area effect spell (our equivalent is incendiaries and artillery) or have them turned/destroyed by a priest. I haven’t come across any religious elements in any modern zombie pictures, even those which clearly identify them as the walking dead.

[stevep]

Feb 7, 2021 9:34:18 GMT simon darkshade said:

For me, it doesn’t make sense that a disease like this would emerge in the first world out of nowhere, or even the chimp rage virus; those aren’t even zombies, in precise terms. Something coming out of Africa or some parts of Asia works a bit better logically, particularly in a pre COVID world of plentiful air travel.

Fast running zombies present a big threat, but are a bit more difficult to rationalise due to the sheer amount of energy needed to burn up and move that quickly. The slow wss walkers are more classic, yet still present a fair threat. However, I’m open to persuasion.

The key attributes of a zombie for me are: undead, flesh eating and lacking intelligence or consciousness as we know it. My background in zombies comes from Advanced Dungeons and Dragons and other fantasy roleplaying games, where they don’t really present a threat; I’ve only come across the horror film/book version of zombies over the last 10 years or so.

The typical way of dealing with a zombie in these modern films seems to focus on shooting them in the head or otherwise destroying the brain, whereas the typical methods in fantasy works is to hit them with a fireball/other area effect spell (our equivalent is incendiaries and artillery) or have them turned/destroyed by a priest. I haven’t come across any religious elements in any modern zombie pictures, even those which clearly identify them as the walking dead.

  simon darkshade,

  I think this is one of the big issues with zombies as basically scientifically they made no sense energy wise.  Or in terms of their ability to function with massive physical damage.  What is powering those damned things after the initial phases when there are a lot of people and possibly other life-forms to eat.  Even then often in films those killed by zombies become zombies themselves rather than being consumed to fuel the initial zombies.  Basically they fit in with a fantasy scenario where you have magic as an explanation but not really in a scientifically based universe.  Possibly especially with WWZ as for instance in the film what where those hordes of zombies besieging Israel powering themselves on.  [Not to mention that no one seems to have realised they were attracted by sound despite all the experience they must have had or the inability of modern firepower to stop the resultant surge.]

  One issue with a virus emerging from an isolated part of Africa or Asia is that they generally cross over from animals but as I understand it you rarely see animals infected.  Not a great expert on the genera so could be wrong here.  As such would we have infected domestic and wild animals all over the place.  Which would make such a pandemic much harder to suppress fully as you could kill all the big ones then say an infected rat or bird possibly starts a new wave of infections.  On the other hand a lot of animals are vegetarians so what is a zombie infect cow say going to do?  Still try and eat grass or attempt to go carnivorous?

  Definitely agree that in such films/stories which generally want to focus on a few isolated survivors, tend to gloss over how modern professional military forces, or even people in rural areas with a lot of guns get overwhelmed so easily.  How the hell, once their pre-warned of what the danger is does the crew of an AFV get overwhelmed by zombies, especially the classical ones with minimal brain activity?  Let alone a defended position supported by artillery, even simple mortars? 

  Steve

[simon darkshade]

Steve,

1.) That is their big issue. They don’t make sense. That would be terrifying for a modern, scientific civilisation that thought it had all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. It can account for some of the general organisational paralysis that some governments typically experience in the face of a zombie plague. We live in a world where bean counting defence mandarins don’t really take into account that aircraft or ships might be lost in a real war; something from literally beyond the pale would be difficult to adapt to,

The less said about the film adaption of World War Z the better.

But this gives us perhaps our first point: Zombies must have some degree of semi-logical “rules”, even if those rules don’t make sense to our understanding.

2.) A very good point on the virus, which makes the animal role less likely. I do reserve the idea of zombie cows for Dark Earth purposes, though...

3.) In such stories, logic is forced to become a cheap harlot for drama. It makes for a more interesting visual story, as we as viewers tend to prefer a small group of characters we can get to know and identify with through the story. In a timeline or history, such as the written version of World War Z, there is the capacity to take a more measured view.

Therefore, thus far:

- Zombies need to have rules, even though they may not be the ones we’re used to
- Slower/shambling zombies require fewer leaps in logic
- A viral origin is possible, but not really from an animal crossover
- Undead
- Flesh consumption driven by insatiable hunger and a need to spread the virus/origin
- Headshots or destruction of the brain destroy them, as does total physical destruction
- Lack of intelligence or consciousness

I’d add to that:
- Initial outbreaks hard to suppress due to disbelief, some degree of incubation period for non fatal bites and a general unreadiness to face the inconceivable
- Total social collapse as depicted in some previous zombie films might need a rethink after the events of the past year

If there is interest, I’d say the first step is fleshing out the concept of a timeline, then building one up from various ideas and contributions; something similar to the earliest days of the Red Dawn + 20 verse on AH.com.

[stevep]

Feb 7, 2021 15:12:36 GMT simon darkshade said:

Steve,

1.) That is their big issue. They don’t make sense. That would be terrifying for a modern, scientific civilisation that thought it had all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. It can account for some of the general organisational paralysis that some governments typically experience in the face of a zombie plague. We live in a world where bean counting defence mandarins don’t really take into account that aircraft or ships might be lost in a real war; something from literally beyond the pale would be difficult to adapt to,

The less said about the film adaption of World War Z the better.

But this gives us perhaps our first point: Zombies must have some degree of semi-logical “rules”, even if those rules don’t make sense to our understanding.

2.) A very good point on the virus, which makes the animal role less likely. I do reserve the idea of zombie cows for Dark Earth purposes, though...

3.) In such stories, logic is forced to become a cheap harlot for drama. It makes for a more interesting visual story, as we as viewers tend to prefer a small group of characters we can get to know and identify with through the story. In a timeline or history, such as the written version of World War Z, there is the capacity to take a more measured view.

Therefore, thus far:

- Zombies need to have rules, even though they may not be the ones we’re used to
- Slower/shambling zombies require fewer leaps in logic
- A viral origin is possible, but not really from an animal crossover
- Undead
- Flesh consumption driven by insatiable hunger and a need to spread the virus/origin
- Headshots or destruction of the brain destroy them, as does total physical destruction
- Lack of intelligence or consciousness

I’d add to that:
- Initial outbreaks hard to suppress due to disbelief, some degree of incubation period for non fatal bites and a general unreadiness to face the inconceivable
- Total social collapse as depicted in some previous zombie films might need a rethink after the events of the past year

If there is interest, I’d say the first step is fleshing out the concept of a timeline, then building one up from various ideas and contributions; something similar to the earliest days of the Red Dawn + 20 verse on AH.com.

  simon darkshade,

  Sounds like a good summary of what's needed for a logical zombie story.  Most especially possibly that even if somehow an infection gets going in a big way its going to die out fairly quickly as the zombies run out of food to eat, especially if they only eat meat.

  Possibly an animal source might be possible from a fairly rare animal, such as a specie of bats say with a freak mutation that both makes for the insane desire for flesh and is only infectious to humans or possibly primates.  However that does seem a hell of a combination of events.

  zombie cows in DE.  Has Simon let slip the real power behind the Chinese empire?

  Steve

[gillan1220]

The 1990 remake of Night of the Living Dead shows a realistic approach to a slow-zombie outbreak. Once human forces get organized, the zombies fall prey to superior firepower, intelligence, and land/sea/air mobility of the human race. Don't forget, they are also subject to the rules of nature so they decay.



Also, I have a timeline for the 1990 remake of Night of the Living Dead along with other zombie media (you can search in my profile and click "View This Member's Recent Threads")

[american2006]

Feb 7, 2021 8:34:29 GMT simon darkshade said:

The notion of a zombie plague has cropped up across various forms of fiction over the last 50 years or so, ranging from the very, very silly to some thought provoking treatments.

One feature that always raises my hackles is the huge ease that zombies brush aside conventional military forces yet fall prey to the Designated Heroic Plucky Band of Plucky Heroes, who typically lack training, resources, weapons and knowledge. This is both present and somewhat subverted in the decent World War Z novel. Apparently, heavy bombers, napalm/incendiaries and concentrated artillery aren’t effective or aren’t thought as viable. 

I know this often occurs for dramatic purposes, but I’d like to propose the challenge of a “realistic” zombie plague/war, perhaps with a look towards creating a cooperative timeline as a bit of fun.

Any further thoughts or comments on the topic are welcome.

A virus is the best way. Perhaps you have a virus that begins to show two weeks after infected. Then it begins by breaking down parts of the brain which control speech and such but keep combat related portions of the brain intact and causes aggression. The virus hits a conventional military base in China or Russia or America. Then we have a militant zombies. They would reasonably be able to fight. If the virus is aeroborne and starts as a chemical experiment in North Korea and gets out, it’s possible.

[american2006]

I should also point out that a virus that can cross between various Ananias but is only symptomatic in people could prove interesting, maybe mosquitoes can be a spreader of it?

[stevep]

Feb 7, 2021 23:01:37 GMT american2006 said:

I should also point out that a virus that can cross between various Ananias but is only symptomatic in people could prove interesting, maybe mosquitoes can be a spreader of it?

  Now that is nasty.   Would this be only the Anopheles mossie - the one which spreads malaria - or all types?  Carrying a blood borne virus that would be very difficult to extinguish.  Probably make large areas of Earth uninhabitable for humans and a continued watch on border areas.  You may have found a way to make the classic zombie movie sort of scenario where there's pretty much a total collapse of society.

[american2006]

Feb 7, 2021 15:12:36 GMT simon darkshade said:

Steve,

1.) That is their big issue. They don’t make sense. That would be terrifying for a modern, scientific civilisation that thought it had all the answers to the mysteries of the universe. It can account for some of the general organisational paralysis that some governments typically experience in the face of a zombie plague. We live in a world where bean counting defence mandarins don’t really take into account that aircraft or ships might be lost in a real war; something from literally beyond the pale would be difficult to adapt to,

The less said about the film adaption of World War Z the better.

But this gives us perhaps our first point: Zombies must have some degree of semi-logical “rules”, even if those rules don’t make sense to our understanding.

2.) A very good point on the virus, which makes the animal role less likely. I do reserve the idea of zombie cows for Dark Earth purposes, though...

3.) In such stories, logic is forced to become a cheap harlot for drama. It makes for a more interesting visual story, as we as viewers tend to prefer a small group of characters we can get to know and identify with through the story. In a timeline or history, such as the written version of World War Z, there is the capacity to take a more measured view.

Therefore, thus far:

- Zombies need to have rules, even though they may not be the ones we’re used to
- Slower/shambling zombies require fewer leaps in logic
- A viral origin is possible, but not really from an animal crossover
- Undead
- Flesh consumption driven by insatiable hunger and a need to spread the virus/origin
- Headshots or destruction of the brain destroy them, as does total physical destruction
- Lack of intelligence or consciousness

I’d add to that:
- Initial outbreaks hard to suppress due to disbelief, some degree of incubation period for non fatal bites and a general unreadiness to face the inconceivable
- Total social collapse as depicted in some previous zombie films might need a rethink after the events of the past year

If there is interest, I’d say the first step is fleshing out the concept of a timeline, then building one up from various ideas and contributions; something similar to the earliest days of the Red Dawn + 20 verse on AH.com.

It took me a second to get this, but Zombie Cows?

[simon darkshade]

Something that Steve mentioned in an offhand manner that I decided to steal for humourous use elsewhere.

It will work well with the Vamp Cow from The Far Side.



The concept is now something I'm going to use as the doings of an undead mastermind with a very twisted sense of humour.

[american2006]

Feb 8, 2021 10:34:50 GMT stevep said:

Feb 7, 2021 23:01:37 GMT american2006 said:

I should also point out that a virus that can cross between various Ananias but is only symptomatic in people could prove interesting, maybe mosquitoes can be a spreader of it?

  Now that is nasty.   Would this be only the Anopheles mossie - the one which spreads malaria - or all types?  Carrying a blood borne virus that would be very difficult to extinguish.  Probably make large areas of Earth uninhabitable for humans and a continued watch on border areas.  You may have found a way to make the classic zombie movie sort of scenario where there's pretty much a total collapse of society.

Well, the Anopheles mossie I suppose could be the only one but if this were to be realistic every sort of insect could work. Remember, by the OP conventional military forces have to be overwhelmed by the zombies. Aside from the fact that these zombies I’ve mentioned aren’t really dead (but then again not really living either) and Governments especially in the West may have reservations about killing there own, the zombies would have to be able to generate new zombies while simultaneously obtaining food. On the subject of zombies obtaining food, what if the virus just ate at the body decomposing it over time but the human shell of the zombie still ate and all that with that portion of the brain intact. And as per the stereotype of zombies feeding on people, perhaps the bite of a zombie could inject the virus into the bloodstream, leading to symptoms showing faster within a human and therefore eventually there would be a zombie sort of thing.

As to the best place for the virus to be introduced, what about outside Rio De Janero? If the virus could start in a major urban area like that, spread through the Amazon and cripple South America, while inevitably making it to the US, Europe, China, etc etc it could prove to be a global disaster on epic proportions. Let’s just hope some Amazonian insect doesn’t take a hint from a certain Chinese bat...