Royal Navy 1921 Battleships and Battlecruisers desgins

[lordroel]

Royal Navy 1921 Battleships and Battlecruisers designs

Battlecruisers

K2 885 feet, 53,100 tons, 144,000 shp, 8 x 18" 16 x 6"
K3 885 feet, 52,000 tons 144,000 shp, 9 x 18" 12 x 6"
J3 860 feet, 43,100 tons 151,000 shp 9 x 15" 12 x 6"
I3 925 feet, 51,750 tons 180,000 shp 9 x 18" 16 x 6"
H3c 860 feet, 46,500 tons 180,000 shp 6 x 18" 16 x 6"

Set I of Battlecruiser designs of the 1921 RN construction program



Set II of Battlecruiser designs of the 1921 RN construction program



Set III of Battlecruiser designs of the 1921 RN construction program



Battleships

L2 860 feet, 52,100 tons, 70,000 shp, 8 x 18" 16 x 6"
L3 860 feet, 51,100 tons, 70,000 shp, 9 x 18" 16 x 6"
M3 775 feet, 46,000 tons, not availabe, 8 x 18" 16 x 6"
M2 815 feet, 48,750 tons, not avaible, 8 x 18" 16 x 6"

Set I of Battleships designs of the 1921 RN construction program



Set II of Battleships designs of the 1921 RN construction program

[1bigrich]

Statistics for the designs.

In comments the layout number is number of barrels in a turret, A is superstructure. Soa for example, North Carolina would be 3-3-A-3

K2

Oct. 1921

LxWxB: 850 (885 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 53,100 tons

SHP: 144,000
Speed: 30 (nearly)

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: (same for K3 design)
Belt: 12”
Bulkheads; 11”
Barbettes: 10” and 12”
Turrets
Front: 15”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
10”, 12”, 15”
8” roof
Tube: 11”

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Main Deck: 1” (over magazines)
Forecastle Deck: 1.25-1.5”
Upper deck: 7” and 6”
Lower deck: 6”, 3” and 2” forward
6” and 3” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,770
Machinery: 5670
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,310
Hull: 18900
Board margin: 250

Comments: K2’s design looks rather like a “super-Hood”, 2-2-A-2-2 layout, with a tower in place of the forward tripod, and with similar disposition of the main armament. Flush deck design.

K3
Oct 1921
LxWxB: 850 (885oa) x 106 x 33.5
Disp: 52,000

SHP: 144,000
Speed: 30

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: see K2

Weights:
General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,670
Machinery: 5,670
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 16,060
Hull: 19,150
Board Margin; 250

Comments: K3 again looks like Hood, but with a US style 3-3-A-3 layout (A being the superstructure). Flush deck design

J3
Nov 1920

LxWxB: 810 (860oa) x 104 x 29
Disp: 43,100
SHP: 151,000
Speed: 32

Armament:
9 x 15”
12 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT
Protection:
Belt: 12”
Bulkheads: 12”
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 15”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower
10”, 12”, 15”
CT tube: 11”

Director hood: 6” and 4”
Main Deck: 1.25”
Forecastle Deck: 2”, 1.5” and 1.25”
Upper deck: “
Lower deck
4”, 3”, and 2” forward
4”, 3”, and 2” aft

Weights:
General Equip: 910
Armament: 6,740
Machinery: 5,670
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 12,780
Hull: 15,640
Board Margin: 160

Comments: J3 resembles design K3, with a 3-3-A-3 layout, but with X-turret raised similar to Vittorio Veneto. Flush deck design.

I3
Nov 1920

LxWxB: 890 (925 oa) x 108 x 32.5
Disp: 51,750
SHP: 180,000
Speed: 32.5

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection:
Belt: 12”
Bulkheads: 11” forward, 10” aft
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 15”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower:
12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Director hood: 5” and 3”

Main deck: None
Forcastle Deck: 2”
Upper Deck: 7” and 8” over mags
4” and 5” over machinery

Lower deck: 7”, 5” and 4” forward
7”, 6”, 5” and 4” aft

Weights:
General Equip 1,000
Armament: 8,670
Machinery: 6,430
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 14,600
Hull: 19590
Board Margin 260

Comments: I3 is similar to G3 and N3 in armament and superstructure layout, with the 3-3-A-3-A pattern.

H3a, H3b, H3c
Dec 1920
Statistic apply to all three design, except as noted.

LxWxB: 825 (860oa) x 105 (H3a) x 32.5
H3b Beam: 106
H3c Beam: 104

Disp: 44,500 H3a
45,000 H3b
43,750 H3c
SHP: 180,000
Speed 33.5 (H3a)
33.25 (H3b)
33.75 (H3c)

Armament:
6 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection
Belt: 14” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 12” forward
10” aft
Barbettes: 14”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 14”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower: 12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Director hood: 5” and 3”
Main deck: 1”
Upper Deck: 9” and 8” over mags
5” and 4” over machinery

Lower deck: 7”, 5” and 4” forward
7”, 6”, 5” and 4” aft

Weights:
General Equip: 1,000
Armament: 6,150
Machinery: 6,430
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and Protective plating: 13,250 (H3a); 13,600 (H3b); 12,800 (H3c)
Hull: 16,250 (H3a); 16,400 (H3b); 15,950 (H3c)
Board Margin: 220

This is the reduced design with only six main guns b and c carrying them in the 3-A-3-A layout. H3a featured both turrets forward of the superstructure 3-3-A. H3b and H3c featured one turret amidships as in the G3 design, b having both turrets raised a deck (the forward turret of H3b is reminiscent of the historical Veneto's after turret) while H3c had both turrets on the main deck level. All are flush-deck designs.

G3
Dec 1920

LxWxB: 825 (860oa) x 106 x 33.5
Disp: 46,500 tons

SHP: 180,000
Speed: 33

Armament:
9 x 16.5”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection
Belt: 14” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 12” forward
10” aft
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 14”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower: 12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Director Hood: 5” and 3”
Upper Deck: 9-8” over magazines
2-3” over machinery
Lower Deck: 7”, 5” and 4” forward,
7”, 8” and 3” aft

Weights:
General Equip: 1,000
Armament: 7,400
Machinery: 6,430
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and Protective plating: 13,350
Hull: 16,890
Board Margin:230

Comments: G3 was a three-turret design, two forward, one midships, 3-3-A-3-A. Flush deck design


F2
Nov. 30, 1921

LxWxB: 720 (760oa) x 106 x 28.5
Disp: 35,000 tons

SHP: 112,000
Speed: 30

Armament:
6 x 15”
12 x 6”
4 pom-poms

Protection
Belt: 13” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 11” forward
10” aft
Barbettes: 13”
Turrets
Front: 16”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 7”
Conning Tower: 12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Upper Deck: 7” over magazines
3.25” over machinery

Weights:
General Equip: 850
Armament: 4,600
Machinery: 4,660
Fuel: 1,000
Armor and Protective plating: 10,210
Hull: 13,500
Board Margin:180

Comments: F2 featured an ‘all forward’ design with A and B turrets at the main deck level and C turret superfiring, in a 2-2-2-A configuration.

F3
Nov. 30, 1921

LxWxB: 700 (740oa) x 106 x 28.5
Disp: 35,000 tons

SHP: 96,000
Speed: 29

Armament:
9 x 15”
8 x 6”
4 pom-poms

Protection
Belt: 12” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 10” forward
9” aft
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 16”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 7”
Conning Tower: 9”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Upper Deck: 7” over magazines
3.25” over machinery

Weights:
General Equip: 850
Armament: 5,400
Machinery: 4,100
Fuel: 1,000
Armor and Protective plating: 9,970
Hull: 13,500
Board Margin:180

Comments: F3 featured an ‘all forward’ design with A and B turrets at the main deck level and C turret superfiring, in a 3-3-3-A configuration.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Battleship designs

LII

Jun. 1920

LxWxB: 850 x 106 x 31
Disp: 50,750 tons
Speed: 25

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
4 x 4.7”

Protection:
Belt: 18”
Bulkheads; 15”
Barbettes: 18”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 9”

Conning tower:
None

Upper deck: 8.75” (flat) and 13” (slope)
Lower deck: 3.5”, 5.5” and 8.75” forward
8.75” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,850
Machinery: 3,350
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,600
Hull: 18,500
Board margin: 250

Comments: LII has a conventional four twin turret layout 2-2-A-2-2, but with all turrets on the same level of the upper deck. There is a lowered quarterdeck, with the break at the after turret.

LIII

Jun. 1920

LxWxB: 850 x 106 x 30.5
Disp: 49,100 tons
Speed: 26

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
4 x 4”

Protection:
Belt: 18”
Bulkheads; 15”
Barbettes: 18”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 9”

Conning tower:
None

Upper deck: 8.75” (flat) and 13” (slope)
Lower deck: 3.5”, 5.5” and 8.75” forward
8.75” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,000
Machinery: 3,560
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,000
Hull: 18,100
Board margin: 250

Comments: LIII has a conventional three triple turret layout 3-3-A-3, but with all turrets on the same level of the upper deck. Flush-deck design.

L2

Oct. 1921

LxWxB: 825 (860 oa) x 106 x 33.5
Disp: 52,100 tons
SHP: 70,000
Speed: 25

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: (same for K3 design)
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14”
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 8" flat nd 9” slope
Lower deck: 6”, 4” and 2” forward
8” and 5” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,950
Machinery: 3,250
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 18,850
Hull: 18600
Board margin: 250

Comments: L2 had a single funnel and layout as Hood 2-2-A-2-2. Flush deck design.

L3

Oct. 1921

LxWxB: 825 (860 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 51,100 tons
SHP: 70,000
Speed: 25

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: (same for K3 design)
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14”
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 8" flat nd 9” slope
Lower deck: 6”, 4” and 2” forward
8” and 5” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,850
Machinery: 3,250
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,800
Hull: 18,750
Board margin: 250

Comments: L3 had a classic 3-3-A-3 layout. Flush deck design.

M2

Nov. 1921

LxWxB: 780 (815 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 48,750 tons
Speed: 23.5

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
2 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection:
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14” and 12"
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 6", 7" and 8" flat and 7", 8" and9” slope
Lower deck: 8”, 6” and 4” forward
8" 7" and 6” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,950
Machinery: 2,720
Fuel: 1,100
Armor and protective plating: 17,200
Hull: 17,530
Board margin: 250

Comments: M2 was a four-turret deisgn, two forward, two amidships, 2-2-A-2-2-A. Flush deck design.

M3

Nov. 1921

LxWxB: 740 (775 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 46,000 tons
Speed: 23.5

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
2 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection:
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14” and 12"
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 6", 7" and 8" flat and 7", 8" and9” slope
Lower deck: 8”, 6” and 4” forward
8" 7" and 6” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,850
Machinery: 2,720
Fuel: 1,100
Armor and protective plating: 15,400
Hull: 16,700
Board margin: 250

Comments: M3 was a three-turret design, two forward, one midships, 3-3-A-3-A. Flush deck design. N3 (Saint Class) was based on this design.

N3

Nov. 1921

LxWxB: 815 (820 oa) x 106 x 32 to 33 deep
Disp: 48,500 tons
Speed: 23/23.5

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
32 x 2pdr pom-poms
2 x TT
Two aircraft

Protection:
Belt: 15” @ 72 degrees magazines, 13.5in 72 degrees machinery
Bulkheads; 14” and 12"
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 14"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 8”
Lower deck: 8” forward
8" and 6” aft

Weights (tons)

No detail

Comments: N3 was a three-turret design, two forward, one midships, 3-3-A-3-A. Flush deck design.

[stevep]

  1bigrich ,

  Very interesting thanks.  Assuming that the WNT has still occurred, admittedly with hindsight, I think either J3 or F3 would have been better deals than the OTL Nelson's due to their superior speed, but I assume the lure of the 16" guns was too attractive, if only for the politicians.  You would probably still have problems with the guns as OTL if the weight saving measures had the same impact but they would still have packed a very good punch and with some commonality with the earlier ships would aid logistically at the least.

  Interesting that your tonnage for the G3 is 46.5kton with the initially suggested 16.5" guns as I've usually seen them stated as ~49kton with the 16" weapons.  Or is your tonnage something pre the WNT 'standard tonnage' and hence somewhat lighter for that reason?  They would have been great ships either way if no WNT.

  Steve

[lordroel]

Feb 17, 2021 23:17:04 GMT 1bigrich said:

Statistics for the designs.

In comments the layout number is number of barrels in a turret, A is superstructure. Soa for example, North Carolina would be 3-3-A-3

K2

Oct. 1921

LxWxB: 850 (885 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 53,100 tons

SHP: 144,000
Speed: 30 (nearly)

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: (same for K3 design)
Belt: 12”
Bulkheads; 11”
Barbettes: 10” and 12”
Turrets
Front: 15”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
10”, 12”, 15”
8” roof
Tube: 11”

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Main Deck: 1” (over magazines)
Forecastle Deck: 1.25-1.5”
Upper deck: 7” and 6”
Lower deck: 6”, 3” and 2” forward
6” and 3” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,770
Machinery: 5670
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,310
Hull: 18900
Board margin: 250

Comments: K2’s design looks rather like a “super-Hood”, 2-2-A-2-2 layout, with a tower in place of the forward tripod, and with similar disposition of the main armament. Flush deck design.

K3
Oct 1921
LxWxB: 850 (885oa) x 106 x 33.5
Disp: 52,000

SHP: 144,000
Speed: 30

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: see K2

Weights:
General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,670
Machinery: 5,670
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 16,060
Hull: 19,150
Board Margin; 250

Comments: K3 again looks like Hood, but with a US style 3-3-A-3 layout (A being the superstructure). Flush deck design

J3
Nov 1920

LxWxB: 810 (860oa) x 104 x 29
Disp: 43,100
SHP: 151,000
Speed: 32

Armament:
9 x 15”
12 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT
Protection:
Belt: 12”
Bulkheads: 12”
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 15”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower
10”, 12”, 15”
CT tube: 11”

Director hood: 6” and 4”
Main Deck: 1.25”
Forecastle Deck: 2”, 1.5” and 1.25”
Upper deck: “
Lower deck
4”, 3”, and 2” forward
4”, 3”, and 2” aft

Weights:
General Equip: 910
Armament: 6,740
Machinery: 5,670
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 12,780
Hull: 15,640
Board Margin: 160

Comments: J3 resembles design K3, with a 3-3-A-3 layout, but with X-turret raised similar to Vittorio Veneto. Flush deck design.

I3
Nov 1920

LxWxB: 890 (925 oa) x 108 x 32.5
Disp: 51,750
SHP: 180,000
Speed: 32.5

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection:
Belt: 12”
Bulkheads: 11” forward, 10” aft
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 15”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower:
12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Director hood: 5” and 3”

Main deck: None
Forcastle Deck: 2”
Upper Deck: 7” and 8” over mags
4” and 5” over machinery

Lower deck: 7”, 5” and 4” forward
7”, 6”, 5” and 4” aft

Weights:
General Equip 1,000
Armament: 8,670
Machinery: 6,430
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 14,600
Hull: 19590
Board Margin 260

Comments: I3 is similar to G3 and N3 in armament and superstructure layout, with the 3-3-A-3-A pattern.

H3a, H3b, H3c
Dec 1920
Statistic apply to all three design, except as noted.

LxWxB: 825 (860oa) x 105 (H3a) x 32.5
H3b Beam: 106
H3c Beam: 104

Disp: 44,500 H3a
45,000 H3b
43,750 H3c
SHP: 180,000
Speed 33.5 (H3a)
33.25 (H3b)
33.75 (H3c)

Armament:
6 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection
Belt: 14” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 12” forward
10” aft
Barbettes: 14”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 14”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower: 12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Director hood: 5” and 3”
Main deck: 1”
Upper Deck: 9” and 8” over mags
5” and 4” over machinery

Lower deck: 7”, 5” and 4” forward
7”, 6”, 5” and 4” aft

Weights:
General Equip: 1,000
Armament: 6,150
Machinery: 6,430
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and Protective plating: 13,250 (H3a); 13,600 (H3b); 12,800 (H3c)
Hull: 16,250 (H3a); 16,400 (H3b); 15,950 (H3c)
Board Margin: 220

This is the reduced design with only six main guns b and c carrying them in the 3-A-3-A layout. H3a featured both turrets forward of the superstructure 3-3-A. H3b and H3c featured one turret amidships as in the G3 design, b having both turrets raised a deck (the forward turret of H3b is reminiscent of the historical Veneto's after turret) while H3c had both turrets on the main deck level. All are flush-deck designs.

G3
Dec 1920

LxWxB: 825 (860oa) x 106 x 33.5
Disp: 46,500 tons

SHP: 180,000
Speed: 33

Armament:
9 x 16.5”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection
Belt: 14” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 12” forward
10” aft
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 14”
Roofs: 8”
Conning Tower: 12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Director Hood: 5” and 3”
Upper Deck: 9-8” over magazines
2-3” over machinery
Lower Deck: 7”, 5” and 4” forward,
7”, 8” and 3” aft

Weights:
General Equip: 1,000
Armament: 7,400
Machinery: 6,430
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and Protective plating: 13,350
Hull: 16,890
Board Margin:230

Comments: G3 was a three-turret design, two forward, one midships, 3-3-A-3-A. Flush deck design


F2
Nov. 30, 1921

LxWxB: 720 (760oa) x 106 x 28.5
Disp: 35,000 tons

SHP: 112,000
Speed: 30

Armament:
6 x 15”
12 x 6”
4 pom-poms

Protection
Belt: 13” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 11” forward
10” aft
Barbettes: 13”
Turrets
Front: 16”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 7”
Conning Tower: 12”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Upper Deck: 7” over magazines
3.25” over machinery

Weights:
General Equip: 850
Armament: 4,600
Machinery: 4,660
Fuel: 1,000
Armor and Protective plating: 10,210
Hull: 13,500
Board Margin:180

Comments: F2 featured an ‘all forward’ design with A and B turrets at the main deck level and C turret superfiring, in a 2-2-2-A configuration.

F3
Nov. 30, 1921

LxWxB: 700 (740oa) x 106 x 28.5
Disp: 35,000 tons

SHP: 96,000
Speed: 29

Armament:
9 x 15”
8 x 6”
4 pom-poms

Protection
Belt: 12” magazines
12” machinery
Bulkheads: 10” forward
9” aft
Barbettes: 12”
Turrets
Front: 16”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 7”
Conning Tower: 9”, 6” roof
CT tube: 8”
Upper Deck: 7” over magazines
3.25” over machinery

Weights:
General Equip: 850
Armament: 5,400
Machinery: 4,100
Fuel: 1,000
Armor and Protective plating: 9,970
Hull: 13,500
Board Margin:180

Comments: F3 featured an ‘all forward’ design with A and B turrets at the main deck level and C turret superfiring, in a 3-3-3-A configuration.



+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Battleship designs

LII

Jun. 1920

LxWxB: 850 x 106 x 31
Disp: 50,750 tons
Speed: 25

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
4 x 4.7”

Protection:
Belt: 18”
Bulkheads; 15”
Barbettes: 18”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 9”

Conning tower:
None

Upper deck: 8.75” (flat) and 13” (slope)
Lower deck: 3.5”, 5.5” and 8.75” forward
8.75” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,850
Machinery: 3,350
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,600
Hull: 18,500
Board margin: 250

Comments: LII has a conventional four twin turret layout 2-2-A-2-2, but with all turrets on the same level of the upper deck. There is a lowered quarterdeck, with the break at the after turret.

LIII

Jun. 1920

LxWxB: 850 x 106 x 30.5
Disp: 49,100 tons
Speed: 26

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
4 x 4”

Protection:
Belt: 18”
Bulkheads; 15”
Barbettes: 18”
Turrets
Front: 18”
Sides: 12”
Roofs: 9”

Conning tower:
None

Upper deck: 8.75” (flat) and 13” (slope)
Lower deck: 3.5”, 5.5” and 8.75” forward
8.75” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,000
Machinery: 3,560
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,000
Hull: 18,100
Board margin: 250

Comments: LIII has a conventional three triple turret layout 3-3-A-3, but with all turrets on the same level of the upper deck. Flush-deck design.

L2

Oct. 1921

LxWxB: 825 (860 oa) x 106 x 33.5
Disp: 52,100 tons
SHP: 70,000
Speed: 25

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: (same for K3 design)
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14”
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 8" flat nd 9” slope
Lower deck: 6”, 4” and 2” forward
8” and 5” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,950
Machinery: 3,250
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 18,850
Hull: 18600
Board margin: 250

Comments: L2 had a single funnel and layout as Hood 2-2-A-2-2. Flush deck design.

L3

Oct. 1921

LxWxB: 825 (860 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 51,100 tons
SHP: 70,000
Speed: 25

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
4 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection: (same for K3 design)
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14”
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 8" flat nd 9” slope
Lower deck: 6”, 4” and 2” forward
8” and 5” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,850
Machinery: 3,250
Fuel: 1,200
Armor and protective plating: 17,800
Hull: 18,750
Board margin: 250

Comments: L3 had a classic 3-3-A-3 layout. Flush deck design.

M2

Nov. 1921

LxWxB: 780 (815 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 48,750 tons
Speed: 23.5

Armament:
8 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
2 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection:
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14” and 12"
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 6", 7" and 8" flat and 7", 8" and9” slope
Lower deck: 8”, 6” and 4” forward
8" 7" and 6” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,950
Machinery: 2,720
Fuel: 1,100
Armor and protective plating: 17,200
Hull: 17,530
Board margin: 250

Comments: M2 was a four-turret deisgn, two forward, two amidships, 2-2-A-2-2-A. Flush deck design.

M3

Nov. 1921

LxWxB: 740 (775 oa) x 106 x 33
Disp: 46,000 tons
Speed: 23.5

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
5 x 4.7”
2 pom-poms
2 x TT

Protection:
Belt: 15”
Bulkheads; 14” and 12"
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 9"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 6", 7" and 8" flat and 7", 8" and9” slope
Lower deck: 8”, 6” and 4” forward
8" 7" and 6” aft

Weights (tons)

General equipment: 1,000
Armament: 8,850
Machinery: 2,720
Fuel: 1,100
Armor and protective plating: 15,400
Hull: 16,700
Board margin: 250

Comments: M3 was a three-turret design, two forward, one midships, 3-3-A-3-A. Flush deck design. N3 (Saint Class) was based on this design.

N3

Nov. 1921

LxWxB: 815 (820 oa) x 106 x 32 to 33 deep
Disp: 48,500 tons
Speed: 23/23.5

Armament:
9 x 18”
16 x 6”
6 x 4.7”
32 x 2pdr pom-poms
2 x TT
Two aircraft

Protection:
Belt: 15” @ 72 degrees magazines, 13.5in 72 degrees machinery
Bulkheads; 14” and 12"
Barbettes: 15
Turrets
Front: 18"
Back: 14"
Roofs: 8”

Conning tower:
15”
8” roof

Director hood: 6” and 4”

Upper deck: 8”
Lower deck: 8” forward
8" and 6” aft

Weights (tons)

No detail

Comments: N3 was a three-turret design, two forward, one midships, 3-3-A-3-A. Flush deck design.

Thanks for you insight as always 1bigrich.

Also seems you avatar is broken.

[1bigrich]

Feb 18, 2021 12:31:10 GMT stevep said:

  1bigrich ,

  Very interesting thanks.  Assuming that the WNT has still occurred, admittedly with hindsight, I think either J3 or F3 would have been better deals than the OTL Nelson's due to their superior speed, but I assume the lure of the 16" guns was too attractive, if only for the politicians.  You would probably still have problems with the guns as OTL if the weight saving measures had the same impact but they would still have packed a very good punch and with some commonality with the earlier ships would aid logistically at the least.

  Interesting that your tonnage for the G3 is 46.5kton with the initially suggested 16.5" guns as I've usually seen them stated as ~49kton with the 16" weapons.  Or is your tonnage something pre the WNT 'standard tonnage' and hence somewhat lighter for that reason?  They would have been great ships either way if no WNT.

  Steve

Hi Steve,

F3 and F2 have the advantage of being treaty compliant.    In an offline conversation about F3, JohnFrench of the BC board said F3 was the ship the RN really wanted, but once the treaty was signed, the Admiralty felt compelled to lay down a 16in armed ship, hence O3 becoming Nelsol and Rodol.   A pair of F2 or F3 would have been very useful when World War 2 rolled around for the RN.   I mentioned in the other thread, J3 always seemed the ship the RN SHOULD have gone for, a more standard layout without being overly large to bring docking infrastructure into the conversation.   I have always seen the concept for J3 as 'Hood done right', or the chance to correct Hood's numerous faults if done.

For anyone perusing, the battlecruiser designs go backwards in the English Latin alphabet from K to F, while the battleship designs go forward from L to N (eventually O), where the letter is the hull design and the number is the number of guns in a main batter turret.   All the '2' designs feature four twin turrets except F2 (three) and all the '3' designs feature three triple turrets, except the H series, which had only two main battery turrets of three guns each.

Those numbers are from Raven's and Roberts' British Battleships.  G3 is very much the initial concept, as you point out with the caliber and tonnage.   I did that compilation several years ago, and I don't recall but do not think the tonnage are all Standard,  except for F2 and F3.   I think those mostly reflect a 'normal' displacement, but I would have to check R & R to be sure, so don't take my word for it.

Regards,

[1bigrich]

Feb 18, 2021 14:55:51 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 17, 2021 23:17:04 GMT 1bigrich said:

Thanks for you insight as always 1bigrich .

Also seems you avatar is broken.

YAQW.   

The Serapis Flag shows for me when I log-in to the site.    Are you not seeing it?

Regards,

[lordroel]

Feb 20, 2021 20:35:46 GMT 1bigrich said:

Feb 18, 2021 14:55:51 GMT lordroel said:

Thanks for you insight as always 1bigrich .

Also seems you avatar is broken.

YAQW.   

The Serapis Flag shows for me when I log-in to the site.    Are you not seeing it?

Regards,

Seeing it now.

[1bigrich]

stevep,

I was finally able to drag Raven's and Roberts' out and those displacements are "Legend".

I also checked on the G3, and text states that the reduction from 16.5in to 16in might have been a weight-saving exercise, bit is also possible the 16.5in caliber was not liked. There were other weight saving efforts with G3 as well, power reduced to 160,000 shp. These saving were used to increase secondary and AA armament and belt thickness, though, not to reduce hull size.

Regards,

[stevep]

Feb 27, 2021 20:57:26 GMT 1bigrich said:

stevep ,

I was finally able to drag Raven's and Roberts' out and those displacements are "Legend".

I also checked on the G3, and text states that the reduction from 16.5in to 16in might have been a weight-saving exercise, bit is also possible the 16.5in caliber was not liked. There were other weight saving efforts with G3 as well, power reduced to 160,000 shp. These saving were used to increase secondary and AA armament and belt thickness, though, not to reduce hull size.

Regards,

  Thanks 1bigrich,  I had always wondered if the reduction to 16" might have been to match what the US and Japan were building with an eye to getting some sort of later agreement or at least not escalating things further.  True Japan had a 18" design planned but that was some way from being laid down.  However as you say it could well have been a weight saving exercise.  Must admit I hadn't noticed that the original design had an extra 20,000 shp. 

[1bigrich]

Feb 28, 2021 11:33:39 GMT stevep said:

  Thanks 1bigrich ,  I had always wondered if the reduction to 16" might have been to match what the US and Japan were building with an eye to getting some sort of later agreement or at least not escalating things further.  True Japan had a 18" design planned but that was some way from being laid down.  However as you say it could well have been a weight saving exercise.  Must admit I hadn't noticed that the original design had an extra 20,000 shp. 

Hi Steve,

I hadn't caught the difference in power either, until R & R pointed it out.  

What's interesting to me is with all the talk of docking considerations in the large RN designs, the weight reduction wasn't put into a smaller hull, but into improving other characteristics of the design.

The Royal Navy's 1920-21 designs are still fascinating though.   I just occurred to me as well they are now a century old...

Regards,

[nicksumner]

Invincible from the Drake's Drum timeline. The design is based on K2 with three triple 16 inch turrets and the extra hull space taken up with machinery for 32 knots.

[lordroel]

Oct 27, 2021 17:06:28 GMT nicksumner said:

Invincible from the Drake's Drum timeline. The design is based on K2 with three triple 16 inch turrets and the extra hull space taken up with machinery for 32 knots.

That is a nice streamlined battlecruiser.