A window of opportunity 1905

[stevep]

Apr 9, 2021 7:55:06 GMT 575 said:

1916
This seemed a quiet year in the Baltic though late in May a Danish Torpedoboat got its rudder and propellers blown off by a torpedo east of Bornholm. Fishermen tried pulling the boat to Bornholm but only the arrival of a Swedish Torpedoboat made it possible to haul the boat to Simrishamn on the east coast of Scania. Danish Swedish negotiations on handing over the Torpedoboat following necessary repairs dragged on for three weeks and made for much discussion in Parliament at Copenhagen.
The Danes accused the Swedes of dragging their feet on the matter and only shortages of foodstuffs pursuaded the Swedes to let the Danish Navy collect its boat. In return Denmark delivered cereals for a months consumption in Sweden.
Germany had promised Sweden needed deliveries but none had been forthcoming.

Denmark and Norway asks Britain to convoy their merchantmen on the North Sea though the proposed routes isn't satisfactory to the Scandinavians hence the Danish-Norwegian North Sea Squadron is tasked with convoying their merchantmen which then is rejected entry in ports by the British. (OTL)

The Danish Navy Works have completed 8 small Flyingboats which adding to the 2 on hand at the outbreak of war makes for a small unit. However accidents with the new craft are rife and usually no more than four will be operational.
In Norway the Navy Flyingboat Factory have built 9 small Flyingboats during its building programme. (OTL)

Germany begin building a defensive line across Jutland some 25 km south of the border. Fearing a German assault Denmark begin searching the limited market for heavy field guns. (OTL)

  Horrified that was OTL.  If only Britain had accepted convoying earlier - if only for the big trans-Atlantic ships initially you could save a lot of lives, ships and cash.  Do you know why Britain rejected entry to the ships?  [Is this both warships and merchants or just the warships?]

  That German is building a defensive line sounds rather odd but they are hard pressed in the latter part of this year with Verdun bleeding both sides and ditto for the Somme and Brusilov's Offensive against Austria. 

[575]

Apr 9, 2021 7:56:44 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 9, 2021 7:55:06 GMT 575 said:

1916
This seemed a quiet year in the Baltic though late in May a Danish Torpedoboat got its rudder and propellers blown off by a torpedo east of Bornholm. Fishermen tried pulling the boat to Bornholm but only the arrival of a Swedish Torpedoboat made it possible to haul the boat to Simrishamn on the east coast of Scania. Danish Swedish negotiations on handing over the Torpedoboat following necessary repairs dragged on for three weeks and made for much discussion in Parliament at Copenhagen.
The Danes accused the Swedes of dragging their feet on the matter and only shortages of foodstuffs pursuaded the Swedes to let the Danish Navy collect its boat. In return Denmark delivered cereals for a months consumption in Sweden.
Germany had promised Sweden needed deliveries but none had been forthcoming.

Denmark and Norway asks Britain to convoy their merchantmen on the North Sea though the proposed routes isn't satisfactory to the Scandinavians hence the Danish-Norwegian North Sea Squadron is tasked with convoying their merchantmen which then is rejected entry in ports by the British. (OTL)

The Danish Navy Works have completed 8 small Flyingboats which adding to the 2 on hand at the outbreak of war makes for a small unit. However accidents with the new craft are rife and usually no more than four will be operational.
In Norway the Navy Flyingboat Factory have built 9 small Flyingboats during its building programme. (OTL)

Germany begin building a defensive line across Jutland some 25 km south of the border. Fearing a German assault Denmark begin searching the limited market for heavy field guns. (OTL)

Was it a German Torpedoboat ore subamrine that did the attack.

Unidentified - could be any bellingerent party Submarine.

No Navy vessels were lost due to acts of war but many merchantmen attacked and sunk and territorial waters violated several times by both sides.

[575]

Apr 9, 2021 10:07:30 GMT stevep said:

Apr 9, 2021 7:55:06 GMT 575 said:

1916
This seemed a quiet year in the Baltic though late in May a Danish Torpedoboat got its rudder and propellers blown off by a torpedo east of Bornholm. Fishermen tried pulling the boat to Bornholm but only the arrival of a Swedish Torpedoboat made it possible to haul the boat to Simrishamn on the east coast of Scania. Danish Swedish negotiations on handing over the Torpedoboat following necessary repairs dragged on for three weeks and made for much discussion in Parliament at Copenhagen.
The Danes accused the Swedes of dragging their feet on the matter and only shortages of foodstuffs pursuaded the Swedes to let the Danish Navy collect its boat. In return Denmark delivered cereals for a months consumption in Sweden.
Germany had promised Sweden needed deliveries but none had been forthcoming.

Denmark and Norway asks Britain to convoy their merchantmen on the North Sea though the proposed routes isn't satisfactory to the Scandinavians hence the Danish-Norwegian North Sea Squadron is tasked with convoying their merchantmen which then is rejected entry in ports by the British. (OTL)

The Danish Navy Works have completed 8 small Flyingboats which adding to the 2 on hand at the outbreak of war makes for a small unit. However accidents with the new craft are rife and usually no more than four will be operational.
In Norway the Navy Flyingboat Factory have built 9 small Flyingboats during its building programme. (OTL)

Germany begin building a defensive line across Jutland some 25 km south of the border. Fearing a German assault Denmark begin searching the limited market for heavy field guns. (OTL)

  Horrified that was OTL.  If only Britain had accepted convoying earlier - if only for the big trans-Atlantic ships initially you could save a lot of lives, ships and cash.  Do you know why Britain rejected entry to the ships?  [Is this both warships and merchants or just the warships?]

  That German is building a defensive line sounds rather odd but they are hard pressed in the latter part of this year with Verdun bleeding both sides and ditto for the Somme and Brusilov's Offensive against Austria. 

I don't know why proposed Nordic convoys were rejected entry into British ports. I couldn't find more specific information but its rather interesting. Perhaps RN wanted to avoid any problems in recognition by jumpy gunners.

Odd thing about the German cross-Jutland defensive works though it was to prevent Entente landing in Jutland to invade Schleswig-Holstein from meterializing.

[575]

A note on Thorvald Stauning head of the Danish Socialdemocratic Party - he is an important figure to Denmark during the 1920's and 30's to his death during 1942. An important information to understand the Danish Socialdemocratic Party which the Americans even today get all wrong is that it isn't Socialist!

The greatest threat to the Socialdemocratic Party during the time of Stauning was the Communists - not so much the Soviet Union it seemed but the Communist Party and thus too the Soviet Union remote controlling the parties outside the Soviet Unoin.
The threat was that the Communist Party would rob the Socialdemocratic Party of its constituency - the workers and hence the party ended up enrolling not just blue collar but also white collar workers within its constituency.
Fascism and Nazism was viewed the menace - Communism the death threat. Its actually spelleded out in the movie Flame & Citron of a couple of Danish resistance fighters by a Socialdemocratic leader.
Stauning did have close relationships with the Danish Army Commanders.
At some point during 1934-5 he seemed to consider ending the neutrality policy and either rally allies - which failed - or build up Danish Defence Forces to resist invasion/occupation; which he gave up too but did supply the Armed Forces with new kit.

OTL stuff allows me to twist his story somewhat though he still will be shaping Denmark as to his perception of the State the real driver of course being the changed outlook of the Danes post 1905 War and having rid themselves of the Shadow of 1864!

[lordroel]

Apr 9, 2021 20:23:00 GMT 575 said:

Apr 9, 2021 7:56:44 GMT lordroel said:

Was it a German Torpedoboat ore subamrine that did the attack.

Unidentified - could be any bellingerent party Submarine.

No Navy vessels were lost due to acts of war but many merchantmen attacked and sunk and territorial waters violated several times by both sides.

Would a British submarine be able to tell it was a Danish ship and not a German ship.

[stevep]

Apr 10, 2021 8:51:08 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 9, 2021 20:23:00 GMT 575 said:

Unidentified - could be any bellingerent party Submarine.

No Navy vessels were lost due to acts of war but many merchantmen attacked and sunk and territorial waters violated several times by both sides.

Would a British submarine be able to tell it was a Danish ship and not a German ship.

  Recognizing the flag of ships could be awkward depending on the weather conditions, especially since this attack occurred while the sub was submerged.  Hope it wasn't a British sub either through recklessness or some sort of false flag action to blame the Germans.  Would be a disaster being caught out in something like that while Britain is fairly fully committed to the Somme to take the pressure off Verdun so if Denmark did fall for it and decide on a dow on Germany we couldn't exactly give them much support.  Plus given how helpful the Danes have been already it would be bloody stupid to risk upsetting them.

[575]

Lets just archive this as one of the dangers of war occuring on your doorstep.
At times Danish warships were as close to the shooting that they were able to stay out of trouble but also close enough to rescue survivors.
ITTL its a vehicle to make Sweden realize its bad being on your own in troubled times. And just across 6km of water is the breadbasket of Scandinavia willing to make bygones be bygones!

[575]

1917
As Germany announces unrestricted Submarine warfare during February an agreement is reached on the convoy issue with Britain – Danish and Norwegian units will do patrols to the south of the convoy route within their territorial and ajecent waters to block entry of German Submarines into the convoy routes from neutral waters.
Within territorial waters the Danish Norwegian Navies will attack submerged Submarines or foreign Warships that looks intend on attacking shipping. Outside territorial waters merchantmen will be formed in convoy and if attacked by Submarines or Warships the Convoy will be defended by Danish and Norwegian Warships.
At the time aircraft of the Danish Navy based in southwest Norway at Stavanger and Bergen alongside Norwegian Navy Aircraft would patrol coastal water for submerged Submarines and if possible warn or guide Danish and Norwegian Warships.
It was realized by the Royal Navy that the Norwegian Danish patrols did make life harder for the German Submariners.
The German Government was notified of the joint Danish-Norwegian decision to defend its merchantment within its territorial waters and repel attacks upon them in international waters.

During one such patrol the Cruiser Valkyrien is hit by a torpedo and sinks off Stavanger.
Large demonstrations take place in Oslo and Copenhagen against Germany and unrestricted Submarine warfare.
Germany accuses Denmark of having sided with the Entente.

The unrestricted Submarine Warfare limited already limited imports of coal for heating which made for schools closing early during the coldest part of winter and children being sent home. The children may have enjoyed the stituation but to industry and Armed Forces this was serious. Some of the major units had been bound to port or sheltered waters for prolonged periods to conserve fuel and this became even more necessary now and would also limited numbers of ships in the North Sea for protecting merchantmen.
This effect made for all political parties to support the Navy operations on convoy duties to sustain deliveries of coal and other imported necessities to keep society running.
Norway had its coal mines on Svalbard and thus came through with less loss but even then would feel the effects.
Socialdemocratic leader Stauning had been named Minister without Portfolio during 1916 with supervision of the Ministry of Interiors Workers and Social Issues office and tried once again to import coal from Germany by way of contacting his German Socialdemocratic fellows in the Reichtag. Nothing besides nice words would come of the effort as Germany was suffering too.

By June Germany had its plans for Fall J and N, Operation Jutland and Norway ready. However Auswärtiges Amt and the Navy realized that the Army didn't have the resources to divert to Norway if it also had to attack Jutland where the bulk of the Danish Army was as well as a Norwegian Brigade was manning the defensive position built across the narrow border along rivers and brooks.
As merchantsubmarines were allowed to traverse neutral waters in Scandinavia the Navy and Auswärtiges Amt backed down as much as Britain didn't seem to have any aspirations within Scandinavia.
(Some change to OTL - the trigger of Germany seriously considering Fall J/N was Norwegian decision to declare armed Submarine activity in its waters to be met by force. The Germans tried to stop the supply from Britain to Archanglsk, Russia north of Norway and as a result of this Norwegian merchantmen were sunk too)

[lordroel]

Apr 10, 2021 10:11:43 GMT 575 said:

1917


During one such patrol the Cruiser Valkyrien is hit by a torpedo and sinks off Stavanger.

So how many sailors and officers died onboard Valkyrien.

[stevep]

  575 ,

   I wonder if given how friendly and helpful Denmark is the allies might relax restrictions on coal to give a larger supply to the country.  Not enough to cover any significant exports to Germany but to ease up the shortfall in the country itself.  If would be a good idea and would also aid the Danish/Norwegian fleet in its convoy operations.  At this point when Britain needs all the friends and also cash it can get it would seem to make sense.  Have a couple of reporters from say the Times with its prestige, reporting on the suffering due to the lack of coal could help make a case for it.

  Steve

[575]

Apr 10, 2021 10:41:40 GMT stevep said:

  575 ,

   I wonder if given how friendly and helpful Denmark is the allies might relax restrictions on coal to give a larger supply to the country.  Not enough to cover any significant exports to Germany but to ease up the shortfall in the country itself.  If would be a good idea and would also aid the Danish/Norwegian fleet in its convoy operations.  At this point when Britain needs all the friends and also cash it can get it would seem to make sense.  Have a couple of reporters from say the Times with its prestige, reporting on the suffering due to the lack of coal could help make a case for it.

  Steve

stevep

Good idea - there is still room for change with the next update.

[575]

Apr 10, 2021 10:13:35 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 10, 2021 10:11:43 GMT 575 said:

1917


During one such patrol the Cruiser Valkyrien is hit by a torpedo and sinks off Stavanger.

So how many sailors and officers died onboard Valkyrien.

The Valkyrien crew was lucky being in an area with much traffic of merchantmen and fishering vessels but also off shore of the Danish - Norwegian main base on the Norwegian west coast. All types of ships hurried to the stricken cruiser that sank rather quickly while other ships of the Squadron would be hunting for the Submarine.

The greatest number of de ad would be in the boilerrooms because some of the damage repair of 1905 had been somewhat sloppishly or the metal weakened.

Two engineer officers and 18 crew of the enginedepartment was killed but also a gunnery Ensign and six gunners of the rear 5" gondola of the three on the starboard side.

(Good point - I'll be adding this to my manuscript)

[575]

(on the advice of stevep)

British Times reporters at both Oslo, Norway and Copenhagen, Denmark would report of the sinking of the Valkyrien and the resolute rescue action by both Danish and Norwegian Sailors as well as the crews of merchantmen and Norwegian fishermen but also make room for the effects of lack of coal in both countries mainly so in Denmark.
With a headline of: Son of killed Valkyrien Engineer Officer freezing at school due to shortage of British coal; and a pic of a deserted classroom at Nyboder School (Naval quarter of Copenhagen) except for Peter at his desk clad in heavy winter dress besides the cold stove with the door open shoving just cold ashes inside.
Text: Peter wants to complete school to enter the Navy like his deseased father aboard Valkyrien but due to a shortage of coal schools closed and Peter will have to wait.

It was just another piece of news but the opposition did ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if not a friendly neutral whose Navy were aiding if indirectly Royal Navy operations in the North Sea could be spared some tons of coal to ensure said neutrals next generation of Seamen would think positive of Britain and the Royal Navy?
First Lord of the Admiralty did reply that the situation of the Scandinavian neutrals Norway and Denmark were indirectly aiding the Royal Navy in its North Sea operations thus making for more agricultural produce and timbers to arrive from these nations under the present circumstances of general supply restrictions to ease the lives of British servicemen and britons in general that he would take the issue to cabinet for a possible swift decision.

Much to the surprise of both PM Berntsen of Denmark and PM Knudsen of Norway would recive confidential information from London of a special extra delivery of coal from Britain to the Navies of both countries to make them continue doing the great job in the North Sea Patrols. Berntsen had read the Times and decided that the extra coal allotment would serve the Navy well and make for the needed amount to keep kids in school to prepare the next generation for its future service to the nation.

[stevep]

Apr 10, 2021 14:17:39 GMT 575 said:

(on the advice of stevep)

British Times reporters at both Oslo, Norway and Copenhagen, Denmark would report of the sinking of the Valkyrien and the resolute rescue action by both Danish and Norwegian Sailors as well as the crews of merchantmen and Norwegian fishermen but also make room for the effects of lack of coal in both countries mainly so in Denmark.
With a headline of: Son of killed Valkyrien Engineer Officer freezing at school due to shortage of British coal; and a pic of a deserted classroom at Nyboder School (Naval quarter of Copenhagen) except for Peter at his desk clad in heavy winter dress besides the cold stove with the door open shoving just cold ashes inside.
Text: Peter wants to complete school to enter the Navy like his deseased father aboard Valkyrien but due to a shortage of coal schools closed and Peter will have to wait.

It was just another piece of news but the opposition did ask the First Sea Lord if not a friendly neutral whose Navy were aiding if indirectly Royal Navy operations in the North Sea could be spared some tons of coal to ensure said neutrals next generation of Seamen would think positive of Britain and the Royal Navy?
The First Sea Lord did reply that the situation of the Scandinavian neutrals Norway and Denmark were indirectly aiding the Royal Navy in its North Sea operations thus making for more agricultural produce and timbers to arrive from these nations under the present circumstances of general supply restrictions to ease the lives of British servicemen and britons in general that he would take the issue to cabinet for a possible swift decision.

Much to the surprise of both PM Berntsen of Denmark and PM Knudsen of Norway would recive confidential information from London of a special extra delivery of coal from Britain to the Navies of both countries to make them continue doing the great job in the North Sea Patrols. Berntsen had read the Times and decided that the extra coal allotment would serve the Navy well and make for the needed amount to keep kids in school to prepare the next generation for its future service to the nation.

  575,

  One small quibble.  The 1st Sea Lord is the professional head of the navy.  He might well be asked about such an issue but it would be the political head, the First Lord of the Admiralty, who sits in the cabinet [or did when the role existed] and would handle such political matters.

  Otherwise it is useful for some common sense to apply here.  Good choice of the son of one of the sailors killed in the Valkyrien to make the impact personal.

  Steve

[575]

Apr 11, 2021 12:19:54 GMT stevep said:

Apr 10, 2021 14:17:39 GMT 575 said:

(on the advice of stevep)

British Times reporters at both Oslo, Norway and Copenhagen, Denmark would report of the sinking of the Valkyrien and the resolute rescue action by both Danish and Norwegian Sailors as well as the crews of merchantmen and Norwegian fishermen but also make room for the effects of lack of coal in both countries mainly so in Denmark.
With a headline of: Son of killed Valkyrien Engineer Officer freezing at school due to shortage of British coal; and a pic of a deserted classroom at Nyboder School (Naval quarter of Copenhagen) except for Peter at his desk clad in heavy winter dress besides the cold stove with the door open shoving just cold ashes inside.
Text: Peter wants to complete school to enter the Navy like his deseased father aboard Valkyrien but due to a shortage of coal schools closed and Peter will have to wait.

It was just another piece of news but the opposition did ask the First Sea Lord if not a friendly neutral whose Navy were aiding if indirectly Royal Navy operations in the North Sea could be spared some tons of coal to ensure said neutrals next generation of Seamen would think positive of Britain and the Royal Navy?
The First Sea Lord did reply that the situation of the Scandinavian neutrals Norway and Denmark were indirectly aiding the Royal Navy in its North Sea operations thus making for more agricultural produce and timbers to arrive from these nations under the present circumstances of general supply restrictions to ease the lives of British servicemen and britons in general that he would take the issue to cabinet for a possible swift decision.

Much to the surprise of both PM Berntsen of Denmark and PM Knudsen of Norway would recive confidential information from London of a special extra delivery of coal from Britain to the Navies of both countries to make them continue doing the great job in the North Sea Patrols. Berntsen had read the Times and decided that the extra coal allotment would serve the Navy well and make for the needed amount to keep kids in school to prepare the next generation for its future service to the nation.

  575 ,

  One small quibble.  The 1st Sea Lord is the professional head of the navy.  He might well be asked about such an issue but it would be the political head, the First Lord of the Admiralty, who sits in the cabinet [or did when the role existed] and would handle such political matters.

  Otherwise it is useful for some common sense to apply here.  Good choice of the son of one of the sailors killed in the Valkyrien to make the impact personal.

  Steve

stevep

Thanks for the correction - have edited the post.

Carsten