A window of opportunity 1905

[lordroel]

Mar 20, 2021 7:55:39 GMT 575 said:

Like brothers:
To some Scandinavians the Norwegians looked like able to walk on water following the peace treaty but the Norwegians didn't forget the help offered by the Danes nor the sacrifices shared in their short but bloody struggle for independence.
Some clearheaded Norwegian officers well realized that the contribution of the Danish Navy in fending off the Swedish planned amphibious operation shouldn't be downplayed.
Without that Norway would have come out of the conflict in much worse shape. Yielding command to the well trained Danish Navy officers had been a necessity in the situation of Norways struggle for life.
That the Danes had kept the land contribution small was critized but also realized to be a necessity to deter any Swedish attack on Copenhagen or a German military demonstration in Jutland.
The Danes just knew they couldn't walk on water but were fairly close the Norwegian officers well agreed.

As such it was only natural for Norway to ask Denmark for a mutual defence treaty to deter Sweden from any future adventures which of course would also be a strengthening of Denmarks position vis a vis Germany.
This being something of a gamble Norwegian Premier Christian Michelsen realized and really too much to the benefit of Denmarks but it was imperative to secure Norwegian independence at the moment. If only the Russians had brought their house in order a little sooner to distract the Swedes' attention to the east; but then you cannot have all your wishes come true. A true neutrality the ultimate objective of Norway but in the present situation less had to suffice.

In the heat of the moment nothing seemed more appropriate or right to Danish Foreign Minister Raben-Leventzau or Primeminister I.C. Christensen; though the latter had designs on a rapprochement with Germany too and viewed the alliance as a lever in that potential conflict.
The Schleswig question as always at the forefront of Danish politics.

With Germany still at odds with France the window of opportunity kept open and a formal treaty of mutual defensive assistance would be entered by Denmark and Norway.
The teaty wasn't made public but the movement of Danish and Norwegian members of Government between Copenhagen and Kristiania/Oslo was telling to observers.

Then of course it was only two third rate powers joining up on a second rate so why care? Back to Morocco. The real deal!
By 1906 and the conference of Algeciras ending on 7. April the window of opportunity closed for the time being.

So a Danish-Norwegian alliance, wonder if that will still be in effect 35 years later.

[stevep]

Mar 19, 2021 20:50:27 GMT 575 said:

Peace talks:
During mid-October the warring parties met at London for peace talks; present were of course representatives of the Great Powers.
There had been some writings in newspapers about the conduct of war by the Swedish Army in Norway and a few of the Norwegians had some difficulty in sharing the table with the Swedish representatives even though these did talk of excessive use of violence during the conflict by some Swedish troops though insured the Great Powers representatives that any such would be tried and punished accordingly if found guilty though they also expressed the view that the actions of Norwegian civilian franc-tireurs were against the laws of civilized conduct of war!

Prior to convening at conference and as part of the cease-fire terms Denmark and Norway had officially lifted the Naval blockade of Sweden. It had not been effective since the battle of Göteborg/Vinga anyway mainly because of the loss of ships and thus means of enforcing it partly because Denmark and Norway well knew it would probably be to their benefit with the Great Powers. With the Swedish Navy in a similar state things had naturally cooled down.

The land border had been demilitarized for five kilometers which had been patrolled by British officers on the Swedish side and German officers on the Norwegian side; though only in the south at a few places in the center west of Trondhjem and at the Ore Railway border crossing east of Narvik.
With the Great Powers in unison on the subject matter Sweden had to fold and the Norwegians and Danes lift the blockade and return ships seized and crews interned. Of course prisoners of war would be exchanged too at predestined points.
The stories of the massacre and burning of Norwegian villages on the march on Kongsvinger went around the world.
Military attaches and observers were much more interested in the actual fighting and supply of the Armies as well as the Navies and ammunition consumption which had exceeded all expectations. Generally however such would be attributed to the amateurish handling of logistics in backward second and third rate militaries.
The effect of machineguns seemed to mimick that seen in Manchuria and would be something to take note of.

Norway was still a Kingdom but an independent one with its new King being the son in law of King Edward 7. Son of the Danish Crown Prince the later Frederik 8. and kin to most of the Royal houses of Europe.
Sweden had to accept that as it had to accept the existence of Norwegian border fortifications and no veto on the watershed though a consultative clause was added to the treaty regarding shared watersheds.
The Sami was secured free passage of borders in the north of Scandinavia.

The Ore Railway from Kiruna/Malmberget in Sweden to Narvik, Norway was given special attention.
The British company running the railway naturally wanting to continue doing so but the recent war did muddy the waters.
British pressure had to be applied to reach agreement for the time being; the British company would still run the railway and Norway allow shipping ore off the port of Narvik.
The Swedes however were grumbling but didn't have any alternative.

Peace treaty signed the Great Powers observers left Scandinavia for other important duties.

  575,

  Just to clarify please is there a discrepancy here as I would have thought that border defences would be affected by a 5km demilitarisation?  Or is there some exception for some/all the Norwegian defences?

  Sounds like a clear win for Norway and also Denmark to a degree.  However will there be impacts on the wider European tensions?  Could you see Sweden possibly being drawn into the German sphere and Denmark and Norway towards the entente?  I know you say the Danish PM wants better relations with Germany but given the differences over Schleswig-Holstein I can't really see that as too likely. 

  Steve

[575]

Well the Norwegians have to trust the British making their border defences stay though most close to the border were hastily dug earthworks as I understand it and the real fortifications were way in land of the 5 km.

Norway have secured its independence by its defence and Denmark have aided that and landed in quite another foreign policy situation than before the war; we are a bit early but the decision to fight will have made some impression in Berlin much different from OTL. The Danish - German situation is going to get changed in the long run. The Schleswig-Holstein problem is very real and Denmark well know it hence the PMs utterings on the relationship with Germany.
Joining the Alliance may be tricky for Denmark in Germany may percieve it as an unfriendly act or Germany may say - "now what is this all about?" together with the Great Baelt Torpedoboat incident I risk thinking the Germans may consider the Danes of made of harder stuff than thought.

[575]

Rebuilding the Navies:
The first decision to be made on having made peace was to rebuild the Navies of the three protagonists.
Lessons had been learned and all realized now the Swedes too that quickfire artillery was a must as was good steel armour. Days of deck or compound armour was over. Though it would be costly it would also secure orderbooks for ship yards and jobs for workers.

The Danes and Norwegians understood that they needed larger ships if they were to go on blockade again. The living quarters left much to be desired though the Olfert Fischer class wasn't bad. It just needed enlargement.
Of course the other Danish issue was that Cruisers were still needed. The Elswick Cruiser had shown itself not to be a Ship of the line so these could not be factored into the numbers of ships weighed against the possible enemy. For distant blockade yes – in battle against more armoured opponents no.
Valkyrien had taken heavy punishment its deckarmour pierced and the mini-Elswicks wouldn't have survived the battle.

Frederikshavn as a depot seemed the only real thing; it would also serve to strengthen communications with Norway. And provide a large shipyard to Norway within reasonable distance though on Danish ground.
H V Buhls Steelship Yard would thrive in years to come.
This would also necessiate real base facilities like barracks and storage for provisions and ammunition.
Regarding ammunition there was something of a problem. Almost all 9,4”, 6” and 57mm had been fired and needed replenishment. Also quite a few barrels had come close to being worn out and had to be replaced.
Due to damage quite a number of guns and other ship parts had to be replaced or ships wholly rebuilt or scrapped.

Swedish Submarine Hajen had been a most genuine threat in being and countermeasures had to be made like buying some.
The ships would need more armour below the waterline to counter torpedoes. Though the main defences against Submarines would still be speed and range until some detection device would invented.
Submarines would be needed in future conflicts.

There were positives too; Norway lacking a Naval Yard was very interested in shared financing Frederikshavn or be party to Copenhagen Naval Yard. The ideal position would be a Naval Yard in Norway but the Norwegians also wanted to economize on expenditure though it meant fewer jobs in Norway but then less leftwing leaning workers demanding all sorts of luxuries.
With the defense treaty signed that would only be a question of time. Both countries needed to be able to fend for themselves in case of another conflict.
The added bonus being familiarization of the two Navies.

The problem by now was where to find new big guns.
Krupp had been a regular supplier to Denmark but Bofors of Sweden had been a major supplier of quickfiring guns as of lately. At the moment Sweden wasn't really into selling arms to its former opponents.
Some guns could be produced locally but a supplier would be needed mostly because of the ongoing development of guns and gunpowder. The natural supplier would be the power that had supported the alliance namely Britain.

Captain Kofoed-Hansen was of the opinion that the two ordered vessels of the Herluf Trolle class would still be built though the design would need change.
Instead of the two single maingun turrets they would get three twin turrets and the secondary and tertiary guns would be changed to a single calibre in single turrets.
The main turrets would become an A – X – Y configuration with two turrets to the rear. This wasn't deemed a detriment as the main engagement had been mainly by broadsides firing.
Both Herluf Trolle and Olfert Fischer were to be repaired but would undergo changes to their secondary and tertiary guns which would be replaced by a single calibre guns and placed in single turrets. New main guns would have to be procured too.
(There was changes to the design of Armoured Costal Artilleryship Niels Iuel which began as another Olfert Fischer class ship which ended up quite different. During the build process there was a plan to redesign it as a three double turret ship with an A – X – Y placement like this 1938 study


Valkyrien would be refitted with new quick-firing guns replacing her old artillery and new engines to increase speed.
Side armour to protect the machinery would be considered based on the Göteborg experience though higher speed might be a better precaution; this would have to be considered with the future role of the ship as a unit to show the Flag in far away West Indies. Valkyrien never should have been at that battle though she did serve well.

Ivar Hvitfeldt would be scrapped. The old ship had been almost wrecked during the battle and only beaching had saved it from sinking. It had been able though to take a lot of punishment during the battle and its crew would sorely miss it.

The operational life of the majority of the armoured ships had to be considered.
None except Skjold would have survived the battle of Göteborg.
The three mini-Elswicks had to have their future considered too. They were simply too small for their intended role or rather too heavily armed for fishery inspection in the North Atlantic.

In all ten or eleven major units of the Navy had to be sold scrapped or replaced. The procurement of new artillery might make it possible to operate fewer more capable ships in the future.

Then there was the need to acquire Submarines!

[lordroel]

Mar 21, 2021 15:14:59 GMT 575 said:

Well the Norwegians have to trust the British making their border defences stay though most close to the border were hastily dug earthworks as I understand it and the real fortifications were way in land of the 5 km.

Norway have secured its independence by its defence and Denmark have aided that and landed in quite another foreign policy situation than before the war; we are a bit early but the decision to fight will have made some impression in Berlin much different from OTL. The Danish - German situation is going to get changed in the long run. The Schleswig-Holstein problem is very real and Denmark well know it hence the PMs utterings on the relationship with Germany.
Joining the Alliance may be tricky for Denmark in Germany may percieve it as an unfriendly act or Germany may say - "now what is this all about?" together with the Great Baelt Torpedoboat incident I risk thinking the Germans may consider the Danes of made of harder stuff than thought.

I doubt we will see a 3rd Schleswig War, unless Denmark and Norway join the British in 1914.

[575]

Mar 21, 2021 15:16:59 GMT lordroel said:

Mar 21, 2021 15:14:59 GMT 575 said:

Well the Norwegians have to trust the British making their border defences stay though most close to the border were hastily dug earthworks as I understand it and the real fortifications were way in land of the 5 km.

Norway have secured its independence by its defence and Denmark have aided that and landed in quite another foreign policy situation than before the war; we are a bit early but the decision to fight will have made some impression in Berlin much different from OTL. The Danish - German situation is going to get changed in the long run. The Schleswig-Holstein problem is very real and Denmark well know it hence the PMs utterings on the relationship with Germany.
Joining the Alliance may be tricky for Denmark in Germany may percieve it as an unfriendly act or Germany may say - "now what is this all about?" together with the Great Baelt Torpedoboat incident I risk thinking the Germans may consider the Danes of made of harder stuff than thought.

I doubt we will see a 3rd Schleswig War, unless Denmark and Norway join the British in 1914.

I think You are right in doubting any such. I envision the Danish-Norwegian alliance directed against Sweden and in the perspective of Denmark Germany too but much more on this in coming updates. (have the TL fleshed out till 1920 so stay tuned)

[stevep]

Mar 21, 2021 15:14:59 GMT 575 said:

Well the Norwegians have to trust the British making their border defences stay though most close to the border were hastily dug earthworks as I understand it and the real fortifications were way in land of the 5 km.

Norway have secured its independence by its defence and Denmark have aided that and landed in quite another foreign policy situation than before the war; we are a bit early but the decision to fight will have made some impression in Berlin much different from OTL. The Danish - German situation is going to get changed in the long run. The Schleswig-Holstein problem is very real and Denmark well know it hence the PMs utterings on the relationship with Germany.
Joining the Alliance may be tricky for Denmark in Germany may percieve it as an unfriendly act or Germany may say - "now what is this all about?" together with the Great Baelt Torpedoboat incident I risk thinking the Germans may consider the Danes of made of harder stuff than thought.

  OK thanks for clarifying.  In terms of Scandinavia coming into WWI I was thinking more of either Sweden coming out on Germany's side because it possibly gets German aid in the aftermath of this conflict or Germany, thinking Denmark is more likely to support the allies, possibly allowing a western allied fleet to operate in the Baltic - although to what intent I'm unclear - might feel a need for a pre-emptive strike,  Alternatively possibly Swedish revanchism ~1914 gets absorbed into a wider war. 

  Not saying the three Nordic powers will get dragged in if WWI still occurs but just think that it might be a little more likely.  Depending probably on how much bad feeling lingers between the three nations.

[575]

Cheers - I had a lot of tinkering on this but think I ended up with something not too far fetched.
Denmark and Sweden actually have a long history of being tossed around by the Great Powers though both wanted to be going on their own Sweden stopped so post the Napoleonic Wars 1815 and Denmark having a few rounds with the German States ending up the loser and on its own at the mercy of Germany. May be a little simplified.
Denmark had the 1864 experience adopting German friendly neutrality as a matter of circumstance while Sweden wanted a buffer to Russia at long last ending up with neutral Finland.
Germany allying to Sweden would put Denmark into the utter cold but Sweden would afraid of Russia even if it just got clobbered by the Japanese - but that was far away and the Russians just have to cross the Umeå or the Botnic Bay to get at Sweden - there is even threadstones in the Botnic Aaland Isles!
So both wanting insurance from the big partner they would know they couldn't count on would be waving back and forth before joining anything.
Sweden might have a go at Finland if so possible when Germany have Russia defeated by 1917/18 but Denmark would have no such chance. It would like to remain neutral ITTL preferring the Norwegian Alliance to the Entente.
Just my take on it.

[575]

Naval fiscal:
Government was shocked. There was the budget for maintaining and building on the Fortress of Copenhagen. Now the Navy had to be rebuild too.
As the next two units of the Herluf Trolle class was on the drawing board these would see the necessary changes and get built. Of course the price tag would increase but it would be necessary.

Then there was the case of power projection. The Flag had to be shown in the North Atlantic and in the West Indies though the future of the West Indies should be addressed by offering them for sale to any interested party.
The USA had been offered the isles several times but had turned the offers down. Due to the success of the war there seemed to be some resentment nationwide in selling off the West Indies. The issue called for some examination by Government.

Kofoed-Hansen wanted two Cruisers. The Royal Navy was in the process of selling a few older Cruisers of the sailing ship design but Kofoed-Hansen would rather have the Navy Yard build another Valkyrien with the new lessons implemented.
Even if the design was outdated for joining the battleline Kofoed-Hansen continued to stress the need for blockading units and overseas commitments which would suit such a ship.

The proposition of building the new ships perhaps including the Norwegian ones locally really struck a chord with Government; more jobs at home. Also the Socialdemocratic Party wasn't unwilling to such a scheme.

In the end Kofoed-Hansen decided to keep the mini-Elswicks for the time being though he got funds to replace the main guns on the oldest unit – Hekla – and the secondary guns on all three units.

To increase the guarding of the North Atlantic waters a second fishery inspection ship was approved; one Islands Falk (Iceland Falcon) would be launched next year but a second ship was needed. It would be named Hvidbjørnen (Polarbear).

Realities also had to be considered. The eight years old armoured coastal ship Skjold remained in service. It had modern armour and quickfiring secondary guns though only one main gun which needed replacing by a new quickfiring one or rebuilding the single turret into a double with smaller calibre guns going from one 9,4” to a double 6” which would also allow for more shells to be carried.
Being one of the cheapest ships in service and to make up for the lack of hulls Kofoed-Hansen decided to keep it on the list. For the time being.

Selling six ships for scrap would make for some of the funding of the new ships and refit of those kept on the list. Though the time of rebuilding the Navy wasn't really the time for just getting rid of old hulls; not before something to replace them had been built. Which Kofoed-Hansen kept telling Government and Defence Commission.
The casemateship Odin had its main armament of four 10” guns replaced by more modern 6” guns and offered for sale ultimately going to Greece that with its Danish Prince as King was viewed as the right recipient.
The price being appropriately set low; and needed be as the Swedish were also considering selling off their old Armoured Ships that hadn't taken part in operations but now deemed unfit for service in battle.

Submarines it was admitted had played a role in the war but there wasn't money for such at the moment; the Navy was allowed to search the market for surplus Submarines.

The Norwegian Navy had their plans too; Tordenskjold and Harald Haarfagre would get new main guns and all four ships rebuilt with double turrets for four 8” main guns.
The Norwegians also decided to order two new ships in Denmark of the improved Herluf Trolle class to be named Bjørkvin and Nidaros.
Submarines were also on the Norwegian procurement list.

Sweden also pondered what to do with the Navy; a building programme was running of another Armoured Coastal Artillery Ship, a Cruiser and several minor units which in due time would more than double these.

With the loss of one modern Armoured Ship Tapperheten and having to rebuild two - Mannlikheten and Ären and another two damaged in battle - Wasa and Distigheten as well as posessing three ready for being written off - Niord Oden and Thor and three in need of upgrades - Thule Göta and Svea the Swedish Navy also looked to a needed building/repair programme and of other design with larger main gun battery as projected in Denmark and Norway. At least 6 tubes it seemed.
Hajen had played an important role and more submarines had to be procured.
To counter the eventual rebirth of the Russian Baltic squadron with lessons from Tsushima implemented and facing a united Norwegian Danish Navy more considerations had to be done regarding how to rebuild the Swedish Navy and its eventual enlargement.
Funding this became an important national issue.

[stevep]

   575 ,

   This last point will have a lot of foreign shipyards expressing interest, especially in Britain probably which can offer some very competitive prices.  Or will the Nordic powers insist on home construction, which will generate jobs and maintain a capacity but will be markedly more expensive per unit?

  Steve

[575]

With strong Socialdemocratic Parties as well as a tradition for local design and building in both Denmark and Sweden home grown will be preferred!

[575]

Politics:
Though the window of opportunity had closed the negotiated defensive treaty of the German Emperor and the Tsar at Björkö during the summer cruises of 1905 of the two Emperors had been rejected by the Russian political leaders Witte and Lambsdorff. That served not to unite the two possible main disturbers of peace in Scandinavia.

Other foreign policy issues surfaced soon following the war; the monetary union of Denmark and Sweden-Norway being abolished due to the war with Sweden withdrawing from negotiations.
Denmark and Norway did uphold the monetary union to ease their bilateral trade agreement which served to benefit both countries as Denmark would be the major supplier of agricultural produce to which in return Norway would supply Denmark with metals and timbers.

The war had a disturbing effect upon Danish security policy where prior to the war Premier I.C. Christensen had believed that to get through a Great Powers conflict would be by supporting Germany if clandestinely.
The war had shown Britain to be the one to lean to; problem being that Denmark still shared a land border with Germany and the Slesvig problem was as troublesome as ever. Something the press would like to bring up if only to annoy Government.
The ratifications of defence agreement in Parliament had been easy; now I.C. Christensen had to talk to Germany again from an akward though stronger position.

Sweden also had much political discussion on the Navy build progamme. Some parties wanted a revanche more sane heads among those the Socialdemocratic Party wanted peace with the Nordic Brothers but vigilance when talking Russia and then the Socialists who wanted nothing to do with war!
As Denmark would be willing to close the Straits during conflict the main effort would be on land and the Navy thus should protect Sweden from Russia and be ready to deal with a limited engagement in Kattegat/Skagerrak.
There had been talk of building up Göteborg Navy facilities into a real base but this would only be on a limited basis as a blockade had to be expected from outbreak of hostilies and the Navy didn't want a large depot inoperational if also needed in the Baltic. Instead the Navy facility at Göteborg had another railway track to facilitate movement of supplies into it in case of need.

[575]

1906
Royal funeral:
The opportunity to talk to Germany soon arose as King Christian died 29. January 1906 and Frederick 8. ascended to the throne at age 63 with the German Emperor and chief of staff Helmuth v. Molkte arriving at Copenhagen to participate in the funeral by February.
The situation wasn't to the liking of I.C. Christensen as Molkte would waste no time in commenting on the new situation in Scandinavia.
Of course the Norwegian King and PM Christrian Michelsen were present too so that the two countries were able to act in unison towards the Germans or so I.C. Christensen thought – Michelsen had another perception as Germany wasn't seen as a threat to Norway.

Moltke assured that Germany was still considering its duty to keep Britain out of the Baltic in case of conflict; with Denmark now relying on British support it had to seriously consider its situation.
However Germany would expect the Dano-Norwegian alliance to be able to block any intrusion through the Kattegat into the Baltic; hence the rebuilding of the Navies of the two was reassuring to Germany though in case of another Scandinavian conflict Germany of course would have to reassess its situation vis a vis the Scandinavian powers.

The last part made I.C. Christensen relax if only a little though also brought home on him that Denmark had to scale its defences as to give the impression abroad that it would and was able to defend itself.
That would be the political snag. As defence expenditure always had been.

Following the funeral I.C. Christensen and Norwegian PM Michelsen had a round of alliance meetings drawing up the needed prerequisites.

The countries would continue their Naval building programmes to be able to keep Sweden in check but also support each other in the event of an external threat to either state; at this time mainly considering the Danish relationship with Germany but might in the future be needed by Norway when Russia would get through its present time of troubles and having rebuilt its Baltic Fleet; which would need passing the Straits to get at Norway as it had had to get at Japan and its wet grave.

The PM's agreed to have their Naval Commanders draw up plans for joint commands and exercises as well as Army Commanders draw up a scheme of joint exercises.
To minimize the reliance on foreing procurement the small arms factories of the countries would be cooperating by licence production of each others products – mainly Norwegians Krag-Jørgensen rifles and Danish Madsen light aircooled machineguns. Both having proved themselves during the war.

Both PM's knew the other tried to get off any obligations to aid the other party in case of conflict with outside powers other than Sweden.
Both however realized it would be of mutual benefit as the war and recent talks with Germany had shown. Neighter Christensen nor Michelsen had any illusions of getting their respective parliaments to eat the cake of alliance willingly mainly because of the future costs of maintaining the hardware.

There was also a joint Scandinavian PM meeting as the Royals held their own as the Swedish King and PM also of course participated.
Even is there had been a few negative utterings about the Swedes in the streets of Copenhagen at the arrival of the Swedes nothing of such happened on subsequent days.

The joint meeting was very correct and to protocol but necessary. The Swedish PM wanted some regulating on the border trade and agreed to Scandinavian citizens not needing to carry a passport when visiting the neigboring country. Still Sweden rejected entering the krone-cooperation.

Edit: Danish Army procurement of new artillery - deleted. Happened 1902!!!

[stevep]

Mar 23, 2021 8:16:47 GMT 575 said:

1906
Royal funeral:
The opportunity to talk to Germany soon arose as King Christian died 29. January 1906 and Frederick 8. ascended to the throne at age 63 with the German Emperor and chief of staff Helmuth v. Molkte arriving at Copenhagen to participate in the funeral by February.
The situation wasn't to the liking of I.C. Christensen as Molkte would waste no time in commenting on the new situation in Scandinavia.
Of course the Norwegian King and PM Christrian Michelsen were present too so that the two countries were able to act in unison towards the Germans or so I.C. Christensen thought – Michelsen had another perception as Germany wasn't seen as a threat to Germany.

Moltke assured that Germany was still considering its duty to keep Britain out of the Baltic in case of conflict; with Denmark now relying on British support it had to seriously consider its situation.
However Germany would expect the Dano-Norwegian alliance to be able to block any intrusion through the Kattegat into the Baltic; hence the rebuilding of the Navies of the two was reassuring to Germany though in case of another Scandinavian conflict Germany of course would have to reassess its situation vis a vis the Scandinavian powers.

The last part made I.C. Christensen relax if only a little though also brought home on him that Denmark had to scale its defences as to give the impression abroad that it would and was able to defend itself.
That would be the political snag. As defence expenditure always had been. And the Army was in need of new field guns to replace the old Krupp 9cm guns. He would discuss this with the Norwegians to make a joint purchase. Possibly from France.

Following the funeral I.C. Christensen and Norwegian PM Michelsen had a round of alliance meetings drawing up the needed prerequisites.

The countries would continue their Naval building programmes to be able to keep Sweden in check but also support each other in the event of an external threat to either state; at this time mainly considering the Danish relationship with Germany but might in the future be needed by Norway when Russia would get through its present time of troubles and having rebuilt its Baltic Fleet; which would need passing the Straits to get at Norway as it had had to get at Japan and its wet grave.

The PM's agreed to have their Naval Commanders draw up plans for joint commands and exercises as well as Army Commanders draw up a scheme of joint exercises.
To minimize the reliance on foreing procurement the small arms factories of the countries would be cooperating by licence production of each others products – mainly Norwegians Krag-Jørgensen rifles and Danish Madsen light aircooled machineguns. Both having proved themselves during the war.

Both PM's knew the other tried to get off any obligations to aid the other party in case of conflict with outside powers other than Sweden.
Both however realized it would be of mutual benefit as the war and recent talks with Germany had shown. Neighter Christensen nor Michelsen had any illusions of getting their respective parliaments to eat the cake of alliance willingly mainly because of the future costs of maintaining the hardware.

There was also a joint Scandinavian PM meeting as the Royals held their own as the Swedish King and PM also of course participated.
Even is there had been a few negative utterings about the Swedes in the streets of Copenhagen at the arrival of the Swedes nothing of such happened on subsequent days.
The joint meeting was very correct and to protocol but necessary. The Swedish PM wanted some regulating on the border trade and agreed to Scandinavian citizens not needing to carry a passport when visiting the neigboring country. Still Sweden rejected entering the krone-cooperation.

  575,

  Interesting post war developments.  How long do you intend to have things going on?  Can I ask on a couple of points please?

a)  I think you have a typo where you have "– Michelsen had another perception as Germany wasn't seen as a threat to Germany".  Suspect that 2nd Germany should be Norway?

b)  I don't quite follow the bit about a possible Russian threat to Norway?  Where you have "be needed by Norway when Russia would get through its present time of troubles and having rebuilt its Baltic Fleet; which would need passing the Straits to get at Norway as it had had to get at Japan and its wet grave."  Wasn't aware of any Russian moves towards Norway, as opposed to possibly Sweden.  I would have thought that other powers, probably both Britain and Germany would oppose such a move for different reasons.

  Denmark has a difficult position, needing to appease Germany without upsetting Britain.  Also are we seeing steps towards what might be some sort of Danish-Norwegian Union, although now they have separate monarchies that would make things awkward.  Sounds like their at least planning a fiscal union, which could prove an issue if/when the interests of the two countries converge.

  Steve

[575]

Mar 23, 2021 10:47:48 GMT stevep said:

Mar 23, 2021 8:16:47 GMT 575 said:

1906
Royal funeral:
The opportunity to talk to Germany soon arose as King Christian died 29. January 1906 and Frederick 8. ascended to the throne at age 63 with the German Emperor and chief of staff Helmuth v. Molkte arriving at Copenhagen to participate in the funeral by February.
The situation wasn't to the liking of I.C. Christensen as Molkte would waste no time in commenting on the new situation in Scandinavia.
Of course the Norwegian King and PM Christrian Michelsen were present too so that the two countries were able to act in unison towards the Germans or so I.C. Christensen thought – Michelsen had another perception as Germany wasn't seen as a threat to Germany.

Moltke assured that Germany was still considering its duty to keep Britain out of the Baltic in case of conflict; with Denmark now relying on British support it had to seriously consider its situation.
However Germany would expect the Dano-Norwegian alliance to be able to block any intrusion through the Kattegat into the Baltic; hence the rebuilding of the Navies of the two was reassuring to Germany though in case of another Scandinavian conflict Germany of course would have to reassess its situation vis a vis the Scandinavian powers.

The last part made I.C. Christensen relax if only a little though also brought home on him that Denmark had to scale its defences as to give the impression abroad that it would and was able to defend itself.
That would be the political snag. As defence expenditure always had been. And the Army was in need of new field guns to replace the old Krupp 9cm guns. He would discuss this with the Norwegians to make a joint purchase. Possibly from France.

Following the funeral I.C. Christensen and Norwegian PM Michelsen had a round of alliance meetings drawing up the needed prerequisites.

The countries would continue their Naval building programmes to be able to keep Sweden in check but also support each other in the event of an external threat to either state; at this time mainly considering the Danish relationship with Germany but might in the future be needed by Norway when Russia would get through its present time of troubles and having rebuilt its Baltic Fleet; which would need passing the Straits to get at Norway as it had had to get at Japan and its wet grave.

The PM's agreed to have their Naval Commanders draw up plans for joint commands and exercises as well as Army Commanders draw up a scheme of joint exercises.
To minimize the reliance on foreing procurement the small arms factories of the countries would be cooperating by licence production of each others products – mainly Norwegians Krag-Jørgensen rifles and Danish Madsen light aircooled machineguns. Both having proved themselves during the war.

Both PM's knew the other tried to get off any obligations to aid the other party in case of conflict with outside powers other than Sweden.
Both however realized it would be of mutual benefit as the war and recent talks with Germany had shown. Neighter Christensen nor Michelsen had any illusions of getting their respective parliaments to eat the cake of alliance willingly mainly because of the future costs of maintaining the hardware.

There was also a joint Scandinavian PM meeting as the Royals held their own as the Swedish King and PM also of course participated.
Even is there had been a few negative utterings about the Swedes in the streets of Copenhagen at the arrival of the Swedes nothing of such happened on subsequent days.
The joint meeting was very correct and to protocol but necessary. The Swedish PM wanted some regulating on the border trade and agreed to Scandinavian citizens not needing to carry a passport when visiting the neigboring country. Still Sweden rejected entering the krone-cooperation.

  575 ,

  Interesting post war developments.  How long do you intend to have things going on?  Can I ask on a couple of points please?

a)  I think you have a typo where you have "– Michelsen had another perception as Germany wasn't seen as a threat to Germany".  Suspect that 2nd Germany should be Norway?

b)  I don't quite follow the bit about a possible Russian threat to Norway?  Where you have "be needed by Norway when Russia would get through its present time of troubles and having rebuilt its Baltic Fleet; which would need passing the Straits to get at Norway as it had had to get at Japan and its wet grave."  Wasn't aware of any Russian moves towards Norway, as opposed to possibly Sweden.  I would have thought that other powers, probably both Britain and Germany would oppose such a move for different reasons.

  Denmark has a difficult position, needing to appease Germany without upsetting Britain.  Also are we seeing steps towards what might be some sort of Danish-Norwegian Union, although now they have separate monarchies that would make things awkward.  Sounds like their at least planning a fiscal union, which could prove an issue if/when the interests of the two countries converge.

  Steve

Stevep

Re a: thanks have edited!

Re b: we are back in the days of old where Russia might have had aspirations on Finnmark or rather the joint Swedish-Norwegian view on Russia. Norway just have to adapt to new circumstances. Bit convoluted I agree just tried to get into the minds of the actors of the day..

Denmark is in a very difficult situation - OTL Denmark managed it; also during WWI.

There won't be a Danish-Norwegian union the Norwegians are too happy to be independent and deep down at some point they resent the 400 years of being the Danish Kings personal demesne prior to the Union with Sweden. No such thing happening. Also Norwegians don't mind walking on water - Danes will always dip their toes first shuddering they'll just forget about it though they certainly like to sail it. Legacy of 1864!

The fiskal Union was very real lasting from 1873 to 1924 (dissolving the Gold standard).

Carsten