Japan Attacks Russia II

[sandyman]

A hell of a lot of Russian reinforcements came from Siberia if they were not sent to Moscow the Russians would have been in trouble. The Russians also moved a lot of the factory’s from the west to the east any threat to them would cause serious issues.

[stevep]

Apr 14, 2021 14:06:19 GMT sandyman said:

A hell of a lot of Russian reinforcements came from Siberia if they were not sent to Moscow the Russians would have been in trouble. The Russians also moved a lot of the factory’s from the west to the east any threat to them would cause serious issues.

  I have heard it both ways with the 'Siberians' that formed the trained core of the counter attacks in front of Moscow.  I.e. that they came from the forces that had been facing the Japanese or that they were based further west in western Siberia or Central Asia before being moved to the Moscow front. 

  However the bulk of the factories that were moved were to the Urals. western Siberia or pasts of Central Asia so I can't see Japan getting anywhere near them as that's 2-3 thousand miles from the Pacific coastal region. 

[lordroel]

Apr 14, 2021 14:06:19 GMT sandyman said:

A hell of a lot of Russian reinforcements came from Siberia if they were not sent to Moscow the Russians would have been in trouble. The Russians also moved a lot of the factory’s from the west to the east any threat to them would cause serious issues.

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

[oscssw]

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 14, 2021 14:06:19 GMT sandyman said:

A hell of a lot of Russian reinforcements came from Siberia if they were not sent to Moscow the Russians would have been in trouble. The Russians also moved a lot of the factory’s from the west to the east any threat to them would cause serious issues.

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

Nigel Askey has pretty solid creds with the publishing of his multi volume  "Operation Barbarossa".

So the question is if Stalin is confronted with a serious Japanese attack does he panic, especially as his most trusted spy has been proven wrong?

 

[stevep]

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 14, 2021 14:06:19 GMT sandyman said:

A hell of a lot of Russian reinforcements came from Siberia if they were not sent to Moscow the Russians would have been in trouble. The Russians also moved a lot of the factory’s from the west to the east any threat to them would cause serious issues.

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

  Many thanks lordroel,  That pretty much sinks the old stories about a lot of regular units from Siberia being shipped west to play a crucial role on the battles outside Moscow.

[lordroel]

Apr 14, 2021 16:38:46 GMT stevep said:

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

  Many thanks lordroel ,  That pretty much sinks the old stories about a lot of regular units from Siberia being shipped west to play a crucial role on the battles outside Moscow.

But can not find what the Soviets kept in Siberia.

Also, this sounds stupid, what if the Siberian divisions are send to stop the Germans from taking Moscow and then some are send back to fight the Japanese, i do not think that might work as moving divisions over such fast area is time consuming, ore am i wrong. 

[1bigrich]

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

What's the difference between 'Siberia' and 'Far East' in the table?

While the site says only three divisions were fully moved and present for the defense of Moscow, others were already pulled from the east and in-transit

If Japan attacks in late 1941, I don't see this changing; Germany could defeat Russia, Japan could not.    I still think the Soviets would just give ground in the east and let the Japanese get to the end of their supply capabilities...../

Regards.

[stevep]

Apr 24, 2021 23:18:56 GMT 1bigrich said:

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

What's the difference between 'Siberia' and 'Far East' in the table?

While the site says only three divisions were fully moved and present for the defense of Moscow, others were already pulled from the east and in-transit

If Japan attacks in late 1941, I don't see this changing; Germany could defeat Russia, Japan could not.    I still think the Soviets would just give ground in the east and let the Japanese get to the end of their supply capabilities...../

Regards.

  As I understand it, but could be wrong, I think Far East simply refers to the Pacific coastal regions, pretty much from the Amur border up to the bit facing Alaska, with the vast bulk of forces, population and resources being in the former.

  Fully agree that Moscow and the heartland regions of the country would get priority.  Japan can only really affect the coastal regions and probably most importantly the cutting of L-L via that route.  They lack the forces and logistics to advance a thousand km or so into the wildness and would be likely to suffer horrendously from the climate and environment if they did so in numbers.  [True Manchuria is pretty chilly in winter but getting further inland I bet its a lot worse and [lack of] logistics was the Achilles heel of the Japanese army.  They could go a long way on very little but if they couldn't loot more resources things got pretty desperate for them.

[575]

Apr 14, 2021 16:38:46 GMT stevep said:

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

  Many thanks lordroel ,  That pretty much sinks the old stories about a lot of regular units from Siberia being shipped west to play a crucial role on the battles outside Moscow.

And does tell that the Soviets were quite proficient in mobilizing Infantry formations that in lieu of their tank losses won the battle of Moscow (of course not factoring in L-L during the years) or the tanks were just there to make the Germans waste ammo and not overrun the Soviet Infantry!!!

[575]

Apr 14, 2021 15:19:43 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 14, 2021 14:06:19 GMT sandyman said:

A hell of a lot of Russian reinforcements came from Siberia if they were not sent to Moscow the Russians would have been in trouble. The Russians also moved a lot of the factory’s from the west to the east any threat to them would cause serious issues.

You can check this out: THE ‘SIBERIAN’ DIVISIONS AND THE BATTLE FOR MOSCOW IN 1941-42

lordroel;

Thanks for posting - am munching my way through the website.. this is great stuff!

Oh and I found the history of the Madsen Factory in Russia - some of it incorporated in A window of opportunity 1905

[gillan1220]

Why didn't the Japanese Invade the Soviet Union and Help Finish them off?

[stevep]

Apr 27, 2021 6:10:01 GMT gillan1220 said:

Why didn't the Japanese Invade the Soviet Union and Help Finish them off?

  Interesting as that's pretty much the exact opposite of the source Lordroel posted on the 14th April.  I would be somewhat more trusting of the latter as this video doesn't go into sources much and seems more popularistic.  Plus while it refers to Siberia as resource rich a lot of that is a long way from Manchuria and it didn't at the time include any of the vitally needed oil, that was available in the south.  Plus the US didn't really impose an embargo until summer 41 so it would be too late for any decision over Barbarossa - at least in terms of attacking shortly after the Germans.

  Sorge was definitely a very brave and skilled man and his information, once it was accepted, no doubt was very valuable to Stalin but I suspect his role is being somewhat overplayed here.

[EwellHolmes]

The IJA crushes the Red Army in the regions adjacent to Manchuria, cutting off the Pacific Route of Lend Lease. Without that, the USSR collapses in 1942. The Germans do mop up in 1943, while fending off efforts by the Anglo-Americans to land in Sicily. 1944 sees the Reich advance to the Urals while the Anglo-Americans are forced to make an armistice.

[gillan1220]

Apr 29, 2021 21:08:26 GMT EwellHolmes said:

The IJA crushes the Red Army in the regions adjacent to Manchuria, cutting off the Pacific Route of Lend Lease. Without that, the USSR collapses in 1942. The Germans do mop up in 1943, while fending off efforts by the Anglo-Americans to land in Sicily. 1944 sees the Reich advance to the Urals while the Anglo-Americans are forced to make an armistice.

I'd see the USSR relocate somewhere deep in Siberia, far from both German and Japanese forces.

[lordroel]

May 1, 2021 8:59:08 GMT gillan1220 said:

Apr 29, 2021 21:08:26 GMT EwellHolmes said:

The IJA crushes the Red Army in the regions adjacent to Manchuria, cutting off the Pacific Route of Lend Lease. Without that, the USSR collapses in 1942. The Germans do mop up in 1943, while fending off efforts by the Anglo-Americans to land in Sicily. 1944 sees the Reich advance to the Urals while the Anglo-Americans are forced to make an armistice.

I'd see the USSR relocate somewhere deep in Siberia, far from both German and Japanese forces.

Industry and resource map of the Soviet Union during WW2.