Nieuport 161 - A Stronger French Air Force in May 1940

[DMZ]

The core of the Regia Aeronautica was the Fiat CR 42 Falco, which was outperformed by the LN 161 on all aspects, even climbing rate. Only its astonishing manoeuvrability allowed it to survive against Hurricanes or D.520. The result will be probably similar to D.520 vs CR.42.
With better top speed (470 km/h), the very manoeuvrable Fiat G.50 Freccia would have had similar results. The Macchi C.200 Saetta was a much better fighter with 503 km/h top speed but autorotation problems caused suspension of flights until beginnning of 1941.

But all three were outperformed in speed and climbing rate allowing LN 161-162 to chose the moment of the fight.

Similar situation should have resulted between LN 163 and Japannese fighter of the era (Mitsubishi A5M Claude, Nakajima Ki-27 Nate), although their better climbing rates would have matched LN 163's one. But the Zero would have been a thoughter nut after its introduction in July 1940 with its 533 km/h speed and still excellent manoeuvrability, only outperformed in speed by the last LN 163 models.

And all Italian or Japannese combat plane lacked armor protection for the pilot and self-sealing or fire suppression in the fuel tanks, the Japannese "flying lighters" (even if it was the Betty nickname, it was true for all Japannese planes).

LN 162-163 should have used the big speed difference and avoid dog fights.

[lordroel]

Dec 11, 2021 13:57:51 GMT DMZ said:

The core of the Regia Aeronautica was the Fiat CR 42 Falco, which was outperformed by the LN 161 on all aspects, even climbing rate. Only its astonishing manoeuvrability allowed it to survive against Hurricanes or D.520. The result will be probably similar to D.520 vs CR.42.
With better top speed (470 km/h), the very manoeuvrable Fiat G.50 Freccia would have had similar results. The Macchi C.200 Saetta was a much better fighter with 503 km/h top speed but autorotation problems caused suspension of flights until beginnning of 1941.

But all three were outperformed in speed and climbing rate allowing LN 161-162 to chose the moment of the fight.

Similar situation should have resulted between LN 163 and Japannese fighter of the era (Mitsubishi A5M Claude, Nakajima Ki-27 Nate), although their better climbing rates would have matched LN 163's one. But the Zero would have been a thoughter nut after its introduction in July 1940 with its 533 km/h speed and still excellent manoeuvrability, only outperformed in speed by the last LN 163 models.

And all Italian or Japannese combat plane lacked armor protection for the pilot and self-sealing or fire suppression in the fuel tanks, the Japannese "flying lighters" (even if it was the Betty nickname, it was true for all Japannese planes).

LN 162-163 should have used the big speed difference and avoid dog fights.

So would the Nieuport 161 be able to be bought by other countries, example being Belgium, instead of buying 20 Hurricane Mk.I's (early models with fabric covered wings and fixed 2-blade propeller) in 1939 and a licence to build 80 more in OTL.

[DMZ]

China - Nieuport 161 Uchrony

Since 1932, the Kuomintang Chinese government is convinced of the weakness of its army, especially the air force, and wishes to modernize it; and a modern military air force is gradually set up with the help of the United States. At the beginning of the second Sino-Japanese war, in 1937, the American government limited the export of warplanes to China and the latter turned to European production at the end of the year, although Claire Lee Chennault preferred to continue with American aircraft. But "Madame Chang", Song Me-Ling, head of the Aeronautics Commission, wanted a rapid replacement solution, the battle of Changai had once again shown the importance of aviation, and she wanted to take advantage of this to show the Americans that they were not the only ones in the world.

Among this European production, the Loire-Nieuport 161 stood out and attracted the attention of the Chinese mission, it was much more powerful and efficient than the Curtiss Hawk II, Fiat CR.30 biplanes, Gloster Gladiator and even the Boeing P26C monoplane which equip the Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF), not to mention the plethora of other aircraft, some of which date back to the First World War, or the Polikarkov I-15 and I-16 which are starting to be supplied by the Soviet Union. Mass production of this fighter just started in France and negotiations quickly led to a contract for the supply of 13 aircraft, later increased to 30, to be delivered before summer 1939. A few pilots were sent to France to be trained on these aircraft, the next ones were sent to Indochina when its squadrons were equipped with them; they became the base of the first fighter group that engaged the Japanese at Chongqing in December 1939, intercepting 27 bombers and shooting down 8.

This success, the cessation of French arms exports at the declaration of war and the example of the licensing contract with Switzerland led the Chinese to discuss the creation of an assembly plant, and later a construction plant, on their territory. It was decided to set up this factory in Kunming, in Yunnan, at the end of the metric railroad line from Hanoi and Haïphong. To get around the difficulty of supplying engines and equipment, China turned to Switzerland to obtain engines from Saurer and weapons and other equipments from sub-contractors of the Swiss LN 161 program. As with part of the French Armée de l'Air aircraft, the radio sets came from the U.S.A., but they were compatible with those of the P26C.

In the mean time, France restarted weapons exports in spring 1940 and China received twelve more LN 163 with radial Gnome & Rhône engine before the outbreak of the Western campaign.

In the first half of 1940, the bomber losses of the IJA and IJN air services remained high despite the constant attrition of the Chinese fighters and the unescorted bombing campaigns were suspended. The Japanese demanded that France stop helping China and prepared the invasion of Indochina. Despite the hard fighting against Germany in mainland France, a fighter group (the GC I/7 based in Syria and equipped with LN 161) was sent to Hanoi as well as 4,000 Senegalese riflemen from Djibouti.

General Catroux, after having exchanged with General De Gaulle, Secretery of State for War, whom he had met in a prison camp in Germany during the World War I, opened discussions with Chinese to prepare for cooperation to ground defense.

The Japanese launched an air raid on Haiphong in July but their losses were very heavy, two Nieuport were destroyed but the pilots was recovered. Both sides apologized, the Japanese for the navigational error and the French for their overly aggressive reaction to such a minor incident. Not a word for the dozens of civilian victims nor for the lost Japanese crews. The French pilots will not be credited with the victories. But the Japanese understood that Indochina would not be easy to seize.

[miletus12]

Dec 11, 2021 9:09:42 GMT DMZ said:

lordroel ,
As USAAC was reluctant to divert P-36 production to France and direct intervention of Franklin D. Roosevelt was needed to authorize Michel Détroyat to test it, I doubt that other countries could obtain it, at least in a significant quantity, before 1940.

Nevertheless, one can assume that Dutch and Norwegian orders would have been delivered earlier and Norwegian pilots could had opposed a stronger force to the German invasion, including air to ground support. I will think about it.

Dec 11, 2021 8:49:57 GMT lordroel said:

In this timeline, Hawk won't be bought due to the earlier starting production of LN 161 and its much better performances than the Morane ones.

1. Based on what data we have, except for service ceiling (which I think is as important for a fighter as corner turn and speed,), the Hawk outperformed the LN161.

2. The US was certainly reticent about sales. The USAAC fighter line was obsolete and badly in need of replacement. The P-36 was absolutely critical as the next fighter in a similar fashion as the Morane and LN and Bloch competition was to the AdA.   

3. Once production was ramped up, the FDR policy decision to supply the ROCAF and the Dutch with the type was pushed with the same vigor as rearming the British would be at the expense of US needs in 1940. Same for France. Norway like Sweden was snarled in politics. Not sure the Norway sale would be speeded up.
 

[miletus12]

Dec 11, 2021 13:57:51 GMT DMZ said:

Similar situation should have resulted between LN 163 and Japannese fighter of the era (Mitsubishi A5M Claude, Nakajima Ki-27 Nate), although their better climbing rates would have matched LN 163's one.

One forgot the Ki 51 (Sonia) introduced in mid 1939 to Japanese Army Aviation. It would have eaten the LN161 alive. It made mincemeat out of Spitfires.

[lordroel]

Dec 11, 2021 16:38:40 GMT DMZ said:

China - Nieuport 161 Uchrony

This success, the cessation of French arms exports at the declaration of war and the example of the licensing contract with Switzerland led the Chinese to discuss the creation of an assembly plant, and later a construction plant, on their territory. It was decided to set up this factory in Kunming, in Yunnan, at the end of the metric railroad line from Hanoi and Haïphong. To get around the difficulty of supplying engines and equipment, China turned to Switzerland to obtain engines from Saurer and weapons and other equipments from sub-contractors of the Swiss LN 161 program. As with part of the French Armée de l'Air aircraft, the radio sets came from the U.S.A., but they were compatible with those of the P26C.

So what will the Chinese designation of the Nieuport 161 be and will it not be outdated when it enters full production.

[stevep]

Dec 11, 2021 16:38:40 GMT DMZ said:

China - Nieuport 161 Uchrony

Since 1932, the Kuomintang Chinese government is convinced of the weakness of its army, especially the air force, and wishes to modernize it; and a modern military air force is gradually set up with the help of the United States. At the beginning of the second Sino-Japanese war, in 1937, the American government limited the export of warplanes to China and the latter turned to European production at the end of the year, although Claire Lee Chennault preferred to continue with American aircraft. But "Madame Chang", Song Me-Ling, head of the Aeronautics Commission, wanted a rapid replacement solution, the battle of Changai had once again shown the importance of aviation, and she wanted to take advantage of this to show the Americans that they were not the only ones in the world.

Among this European production, the Loire-Nieuport 161 stood out and attracted the attention of the Chinese mission, it was much more powerful and efficient than the Curtiss Hawk II, Fiat CR.30 biplanes, Gloster Gladiator and even the Boeing P26C monoplane which equip the Republic of China Air Force (ROCAF), not to mention the plethora of other aircraft, some of which date back to the First World War, or the Polikarkov I-15 and I-16 which are starting to be supplied by the Soviet Union. Mass production of this fighter just started in France and negotiations quickly led to a contract for the supply of 13 aircraft, later increased to 30, to be delivered before summer 1939. A few pilots were sent to France to be trained on these aircraft, the next ones were sent to Indochina when its squadrons were equipped with them; they became the base of the first fighter group that engaged the Japanese at Chongqing in December 1939, intercepting 27 bombers and shooting down 8.

This success, the cessation of French arms exports at the declaration of war and the example of the licensing contract with Switzerland led the Chinese to discuss the creation of an assembly plant, and later a construction plant, on their territory. It was decided to set up this factory in Kunming, in Yunnan, at the end of the metric railroad line from Hanoi and Haïphong. To get around the difficulty of supplying engines and equipment, China turned to Switzerland to obtain engines from Saurer and weapons and other equipments from sub-contractors of the Swiss LN 161 program. As with part of the French Armée de l'Air aircraft, the radio sets came from the U.S.A., but they were compatible with those of the P26C.

In the mean time, France restarted weapons exports in spring 1940 and China received twelve more LN 163 with radial Gnome & Rhône engine before the outbreak of the Western campaign.

In the first half of 1940, the bomber losses of the IJA and IJN air services remained high despite the constant attrition of the Chinese fighters and the unescorted bombing campaigns were suspended. The Japanese demanded that France stop helping China and prepared the invasion of Indochina. Despite the hard fighting against Germany in mainland France, a fighter group (the GC I/7 based in Syria and equipped with LN 161) was sent to Hanoi as well as 4,000 Senegalese riflemen from Djibouti. General Catroux, after having exchanged with General De Gaulle, Secretery of State for War, whom he had met in a prison camp in Germany during the World War I, opened discussions with the destroyed but the pilots recovered. Both sides apologized, the Japanese for the navigational error and the French for their overly aggressive reaction to such a minor incident. Not a word for the dozens of civilian victims nor for the lost Japanese crews. The French pilots will not be credited with the victories. But the Japanese understood that Indochina would not be easy to seize.

  DMZ,

  I think your missing something here?  Obviously some sort of clash between French and Japanese in the FIC area with a lot of civilian casualties and also air losses.

  A licensing deal with China would help the latter if they could get things set up fully but its also going to make Kunming a high priority target for Japan, although that's in some difficult terrain.

  Steve

[DMZ]

Dec 11, 2021 16:41:15 GMT miletus12 said:

1. Based on what data we have, except for service ceiling (which I think is as important for a fighter as corner turn and speed,), the Hawk outperformed the LN161.

Curtiss Hawk H-75 vs LN 161-162

LN 162 performances (same 12Y 31 engine as LN 161) are estimated from CAO.200 for top speed and from improvement between LN 161-01 and 161-03 for climbing rate.

	H.75	LN 161-03	LN 162
Top Speed (km/h)	486 (1)	496	~540
Ceiling (m)	10,000	11,250	11,250
Time to altitude
2,000 m	1'48"	2'15"	~2'
4,000 m	4'29"	4'29"	~4'
6,000 m	8'24"	7'03"	~6'45"
8,000 m	14'57"	10'51	~10'20
Autonomy (km)	1,300	850	850

(1) Other sources gave 503 km/h

The Hawk was superior to the LN 161 only in climbing rate at low altitude (below 2,000 m) and its autonomy far exceeded any European fighters' one.
It equaled LN 161 in top speed and was outperformed in ceiling and climbing rate over 3,000 m.
LN 162 would have worstened the situation even more than showed with introduction of more powerfull engine 12Y 45, then 12Y 51.

Dec 11, 2021 16:41:15 GMT miletus12 said:

Not sure the Norway sale would be speeded up.

Without some 600 Hawks built for France (400 delivered), I assume 36 could have reached Norway few months earlier.

[lordroel]

Dec 11, 2021 20:31:27 GMT DMZ said:

Dec 11, 2021 16:41:15 GMT miletus12 said:

Not sure the Norway sale would be speeded up.

Without some 600 Hawks built for France (400 delivered), I assume 36 could have reached Norway few months earlier.

Even then the Luftwaffe would win the air war over Norway.

[DMZ]

Dec 11, 2021 16:45:02 GMT miletus12 said:

One forgot the Ki 51 (Sonia) introduced in mid 1939 to Japanese Army Aviation. It would have eaten the LN161 alive. It made mincemeat out of Spitfires.

Not a fighter. Good performances for a light/dive bomber but far outclassed by LN 161.

Wikipedia

Maximum speed: 424 km/h (263 mph, 229 kn) at 3,000 m (9,843 ft)
Range: 1,060 km (660 mi, 570 nmi)
Service ceiling: 8,270 m (27,130 ft)
Time to altitude: 5,000 m (16,404 ft) in 9 minutes 55 seconds

[DMZ]

Dec 11, 2021 17:25:20 GMT lordroel said:

So what will the Chinese designation of the Nieuport 161 be and will it not be outdated when it enters full production

With more powerfull engine and new wings, it will have a higher top speed of the Zero and a similar climbing rate. Japanese fighters being better in dog fights as already mentionned. New name to come, be patient.

Dec 11, 2021 18:10:52 GMT stevep said:

I think your missing something here?  Obviously some sort of clash between French and Japanese in the FIC area with a lot of civilian casualties and also air losses.

Oops! There is a missing paragraph in my post... I will complement it.

Dec 11, 2021 18:10:52 GMT stevep said:

A licensing deal with China would help the latter if they could get things set up fully but its also going to make Kunming a high priority target for Japan, although that's in some difficult terrain.

Kunming was a top priority for IJA air service as there was some war industries but the bombing never had significant results IOTL.

[lordroel]

Dec 11, 2021 16:38:40 GMT DMZ said:

China - Nieuport 161 Uchrony

a fighter group (the GC I/7 based in Syria and equipped with LN 161)

Is that a good thing, to move a unit from Europe which could be needed in that area to Asia.

[DMZ]

Dec 11, 2021 21:04:23 GMT lordroel said:

Is that a good thing, to move a unit from Europe which could be needed in that area to Asia.

IOTL, this GC stayed in Lebanon (actually not Syria but Rayak is very close to the border and GC I/7 was flying over Syria as well as Lebanon). It would have been easier to transfer one of the two GCs based in FNA in case of need, or at least some of the pilots.

But GC I/7 couldn't be completly removed from Middle-East as Italians were threatening Egypt and Suez canal. One flight will go to FIC and one will remain to protect Lebanon and Syria and to support British. Planes will be conveyed by the seaplane tender Commandant Teste.

[DMZ]

China - Nieuport 161 Uchrony

Combats developping in France, it became obvious that the production plant under construction in Kunming couldn't rely on French or Swiss deliveries. Chinese turn to the Nieuport prototype powered by a Pratt & Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp that was tested in France one year before. In order to simplify procurement, construction and maintenance, the fighter will be fitted with fixed landing gear and fixed-pitch propeller; back to the Nieuport 160, in a way. All equipments will come from U.S.A., only the crated airframe will be shipped from France. As this was not war machines but spare parts, U.S. government was not placced in difficulty related to its neutral and isolationnist policy and public opinion. The most sensitive element being the machine guns and ammunitions but a solution was found in selling the armament to the French Indochina, somehow strange considering the anti colonialist view of Franklin D. Roosevelt.

As Kunming plant won't be operationnal before a while and will remain under threat of Japannese air raids, Hanoi General Government, under pressure from local industrialists, proposes to use the facilities under development in Tong (Sontay), some 20 km west of Hanoi, under Breguet supervision, it will also ease logistics, all valid reasons that could not hide the economic motivation. The Chinese agreed, as Kunming had suffered a few air raids but insisted on the continuation of Kunming plant building up. Tong plant will simply assemble the fighter but it was expected that the airframe could be built localy later.

In September 1940, the first Mitsubishi A6M Zero, which had appeared in Manchuria in July, saw combat over Chongking. They were untouchable by the Polikarkov I-15, I153 and I-16, 27 of which being shot down in the first engagement against 13 Zeros, which had no losses on their side. Dog fights became much more difficult for the Nieuport and air supremacy very disputed but the numbers spoke and Chinese could only defend a small area around Chongking.

At the same period, Tong starts its activity but the first assembled Nieuport toke off only in December and it took six months to put all the process in place and have the problems fixed. It was only from March 1941 that half a dozen examples were produced monthly.

In the meantime, combat tactics were developed against the Zero, the Nieuport taking advantage of its dive speed to attack or evade a pursuer, and of its greater solidity to accept combat when there was a chance of hitting the opponent, the light Zero being quick to ignite or explode when hit, just like all Japanese aircraft, which were very poorly protected. Many exchanges took place between the Chinese and French air forces to develop these tactics. But the ROCAF was severely taxed until the first deliveries from Tong, only three LN 163 remaining operationnal in Chonking in April despite a batch of 12 planes delivered from France before Tong enter production.

From that date, things started to improve slowly as losses were smaller than deliveries but the tiny Chinese air force continued to be far from the required size to successfully stand up to the numerous Zeros. Nevertheless, using Tong facilities, the Chiness pilots continue to improve their skills and the core of the squadron flying Nieuports began to match Japannese pilots.

Things also slowy improved in Tong and an average of ten fighters are produced monthly from summer 1941 onward.

On the ground, on the other hand, the LN 170 was of great help despite its small number by harassing the Japanese rear and logistics in lonely missions striking randomly any ennemy forces encountered, disturbing the IJA's capabilities to mount major operations and contributing to the demoralization of its troops.

[miletus12]

Why import the LN161 with US parts at the expected mid 1941 ready date when the P-43 Lancer would be a better option? Come to think of it, for the air war in China that the ROCAF fought, even the P-40 or a Yak or Lavochkin is a better match for the Ki 51s and A6Ms than the LN161.