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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 18, 2022 12:01:00 GMT
Denmark has a small but very professional army including very modern Leopard 2 A7 tanks
Is it going to do something since the war has not yet started?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2022 14:56:14 GMT
Denmark has a small but very professional army including very modern Leopard 2 A7 tanks Is it going to do something since the war has not yet started? We have a Danish member here who could comment on this, 575, what do you think, can Denmark hold the line. On AH.com somebody also asked the same question, but that was the Danish army of 2006: Denmark ISOT to 1940 |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 18, 2022 15:26:50 GMT
Denmark has a small but very professional army including very modern Leopard 2 A7 tanks Is it going to do something since the war has not yet started? We have a Danish member here who could comment on this, 575, what do you think, can Denmark hold the line. On AH.com somebody also asked the same question, but that was the Danish army of 2006: Denmark ISOT to 1940Danish army can easily defeat any German advance |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 19, 2022 16:43:22 GMT
We have a Danish member here who could comment on this, 575 , what do you think, can Denmark hold the line. On AH.com somebody also asked the same question, but that was the Danish army of 2006: Denmark ISOT to 1940Danish army can easily defeat any German advance
While supplies, spares etc last. After that it could get very hairy. Although the big impact could be the knowledge they have, both to a degree technology but also in terms of events to come. How much does the government - or assorted private citizens, diplomats etc - tell various down-time groups. When they hear what happened OTL does Britain and France stiffen their stance or decided not to support Poland? Do they seek some alliance with Stalin, over Polish fears, to avoid the OTL MR Pact? If so what does Stalin do, especially since he of pretty much all the downtime European leaders to listen to the Danes.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 19, 2022 18:08:12 GMT
Danish army can easily defeat any German advance
While supplies, spares etc last. After that it could get very hairy. Although the big impact could be the knowledge they have, both to a degree technology but also in terms of events to come. How much does the government - or assorted private citizens, diplomats etc - tell various down-time groups. When they hear what happened OTL does Britain and France stiffen their stance or decided not to support Poland? Do they seek some alliance with Stalin, over Polish fears, to avoid the OTL MR Pact? If so what does Stalin do, especially since he of pretty much all the downtime European leaders to listen to the Danes.
When does Denmark go to war? In August 1939 Germany is not even at war yet. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2022 18:10:12 GMT
While supplies, spares etc last. After that it could get very hairy. Although the big impact could be the knowledge they have, both to a degree technology but also in terms of events to come. How much does the government - or assorted private citizens, diplomats etc - tell various down-time groups. When they hear what happened OTL does Britain and France stiffen their stance or decided not to support Poland? Do they seek some alliance with Stalin, over Polish fears, to avoid the OTL MR Pact? If so what does Stalin do, especially since he of pretty much all the downtime European leaders to listen to the Danes.
When does Denmark go to war? In August 1939 Germany is not even at war yet. Well Denmark will not go to war if Germany is not at war, but I think they might reveal what is coming to the world, wonder how the Soviet Union will react to that, as will other countries surrounding Germany. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 19, 2022 18:24:27 GMT
When does Denmark go to war? In August 1939 Germany is not even at war yet. Well Denmark will not go to war if Germany is not at war, but I think they might reveal what is coming to the world, wonder how the Soviet Union will react to that, as will other countries surrounding Germany. Does Germany still attack Denmark? Even with uptime knowledge neither UK nor France can go on the offensive against Germany. The only thing they can do is ask Belgium and the Netherlands for military access |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 19, 2022 18:31:55 GMT
Also of note - Danes can massacre the Germans. A single Leopard 2 platoon can destroy an entire German Panzer Army. A single regiment would halt the entire Army Group when supported by artillery and AF.
Would it make sense for Denmark to help Poland by say, destroying German HQs? It might take 2-3 days for Danish ELINT/SIGINT troops to locate all German army group, army, corps and division HQs down to a few meters accuracy. Then Danish F-16s are free to fire
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2022 19:23:31 GMT
Also of note - Danes can massacre the Germans. A single Leopard 2 platoon can destroy an entire German Panzer Army. A single regiment would halt the entire Army Group when supported by artillery and AF. Would it make sense for Denmark to help Poland by say, destroying German HQs? It might take 2-3 days for Danish ELINT/SIGINT troops to locate all German army group, army, corps and division HQs down to a few meters accuracy. Then Danish F-16s are free to fire True but 2019 Denmark is not at war with 1939 Germany, so there is not much they can do, also i do not think 1939 France ore The United Kingdom will join in in a war due to information about future events as the appearance of 2019 Denmark has change everything completely, heck we might see a coup in 1939 Germany by the German military. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 20, 2022 15:45:41 GMT
Well Denmark will not go to war if Germany is not at war, but I think they might reveal what is coming to the world, wonder how the Soviet Union will react to that, as will other countries surrounding Germany. Does Germany still attack Denmark? Even with uptime knowledge neither UK nor France can go on the offensive against Germany. The only thing they can do is ask Belgium and the Netherlands for military access
a) If you mean in April 1940 then I think butterflies will be huge by then.
b) Not sure about that as opinions differ about how defended or not the Rhineland was with the bulk of the German forces attacking Poland. However Britain doesn't have an effective army for offensive action so it could be an issue getting France to go on the offensive, even if Denmark promised support and showed some formidable air power say.
As I say I think the key issues are what information gets out to whom and how much the assorted down-timers believe. Does it scupper the M-R Pact and if so does Hitler still go for Poland without the Soviets secured as allies? If so what does Stalin do?
Similarly assuming that war starts between Germany and the allies [Poland, France and Britain] is there enough support in Denmark for it to declare war on Germany?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 20, 2022 15:49:55 GMT
Also of note - Danes can massacre the Germans. A single Leopard 2 platoon can destroy an entire German Panzer Army. A single regiment would halt the entire Army Group when supported by artillery and AF.Would it make sense for Denmark to help Poland by say, destroying German HQs? It might take 2-3 days for Danish ELINT/SIGINT troops to locate all German army group, army, corps and division HQs down to a few meters accuracy. Then Danish F-16s are free to fire
I would have to doubt this simply because of the question of ammo if nothing else. They can do a huge amount of damage to any German attack, especially with a bit of time to prepare, or even possibly attack themselves, although by ground that would be difficult. Air attacks on carefully selected targets, which could cripple a good bit of an already fragile German economy, or alternatively on the right military targets could destroy a lot of the German forces. However sheer numbers would be an important issue if say the Germans still take Poland and then go to war with Denmark without the latter getting substantial support for the allies.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 20, 2022 16:02:40 GMT
Also of note - Danes can massacre the Germans. A single Leopard 2 platoon can destroy an entire German Panzer Army. A single regiment would halt the entire Army Group when supported by artillery and AF. Would it make sense for Denmark to help Poland by say, destroying German HQs? It might take 2-3 days for Danish ELINT/SIGINT troops to locate all German army group, army, corps and division HQs down to a few meters accuracy. Then Danish F-16s are free to fire True but 2019 Denmark is not at war with 1939 Germany, so there is not much they can do, also i do not think 1939 France ore The United Kingdom will join in in a war due to information about future events as the appearance of 2019 Denmark has change everything completely, heck we might see a coup in 1939 Germany by the German military.
That's a definite possibility, although how quickly the down-time army absorbs info they might receive and how many might feel committed to their oaths of loyalty so you could end up with civil war. Which would be bad for Germany in the short term but possibly a lot better in the longer term depending on what happens and what the other powers do.
There are so many butterflies that things could go very many ways. Would the other Scandinavia powers accept information from Denmark and possibly follow their lead in terms of a defensive alliance? That would given Denmark a lot more manpower and the other nations access to higher tech. Even if that was only a defensive alliance if it, possibly pushed by revelations over Nazi atrocities, prompted ending exports to Germany could be a big issue for the latter.
Or another thing, if things go roughly as OTL until spring 1940, except with no attack on Denmark as the Germans are nervous about the new state Danish attack on and intelligence about Germany military movements could be devastating.
One other thing is what do any non-Danes in Denmark do, assuming their brought along for the ride? A can see a lot of French and British, along with people with contacts with other Scandinavia nations and the Low Countries seeking to warn them.
One other point is that the kingdom of Denmark also includes Greenland and the Faroes and in 1939 Iceland so what is the status of those. Greenland being brought along from 2022 would include at least some US forces and technology while if Iceland is including probably a good bit more.
Steve
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 20, 2022 16:36:57 GMT
Also of note - Danes can massacre the Germans. A single Leopard 2 platoon can destroy an entire German Panzer Army. A single regiment would halt the entire Army Group when supported by artillery and AF.Would it make sense for Denmark to help Poland by say, destroying German HQs? It might take 2-3 days for Danish ELINT/SIGINT troops to locate all German army group, army, corps and division HQs down to a few meters accuracy. Then Danish F-16s are free to fire
I would have to doubt this simply because of the question of ammo if nothing else. They can do a huge amount of damage to any German attack, especially with a bit of time to prepare, or even possibly attack themselves, although by ground that would be difficult. Air attacks on carefully selected targets, which could cripple a good bit of an already fragile German economy, or alternatively on the right military targets could destroy a lot of the German forces. However sheer numbers would be an important issue if say the Germans still take Poland and then go to war with Denmark without the latter getting substantial support for the allies.
Steve
Tanks should use HE, there is no point in using APFSDS. In case of a German attack using well positioned observers and drones to guide artillery should be enough to halt every attack. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 20, 2022 16:46:16 GMT
Denmark has a small but very professional army including very modern Leopard 2 A7 tanks Is it going to do something since the war has not yet started? We have a Danish member here who could comment on this, 575 , what do you think, can Denmark hold the line. On AH.com somebody also asked the same question, but that was the Danish army of 2006: Denmark ISOT to 1940lordroel;
By 2018 those Leo 2 would be upgraded to A7 standard but whitered down to 38. In stores some 141 Leo 1A5 and possibly some 50-70 Centurion VDK in reserve AT-units though the last may only be rumours. Problem would be main armament rounds though the Leo 1 and Centurion V share.
Mech.Inf. would have the lighter AFVs M-113, CV9035, Piranhas etc.
Artillery.. not much more than 2019 i.e. 32+ tubes and a number of 155mm towed guns .. BAAAD!
Army Personnel and Organization would be very much alike - HomeGuard units are also alotted Carl Gustav 84mm AT. Special Forces are the Jæger Korps.
Airforce and its HomeGuard component as 2019 as is Navy with SBS/Frogmen and its HomeGuard component.
The main ace up the Danish sleeve is digital comms as opposed to 1939 analog comms. No listening in on Danish forces though you might see the Neo-nazi, moron or whatever trying to sneak over the border with laptops etc. to aid the Herrenvolk and get rewarded accordingly.
The old Reforger Depots in Jutland are still in Army use stocking at least 15,000 G3 rifles and what-not.
Problem is that Cold War stocking of three months of essential supplies have been abandoned and emptied - only the Finns still maintaining these these days helped them through covid-pandemic initially.
We hadn't exchanged our Liberal Government for the Socialdemocratic one so the North Sea oil and gas wells are still running able to cover Danish consumption and to stock if rationed. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 20, 2022 16:49:58 GMT
I would have to doubt this simply because of the question of ammo if nothing else. They can do a huge amount of damage to any German attack, especially with a bit of time to prepare, or even possibly attack themselves, although by ground that would be difficult. Air attacks on carefully selected targets, which could cripple a good bit of an already fragile German economy, or alternatively on the right military targets could destroy a lot of the German forces. However sheer numbers would be an important issue if say the Germans still take Poland and then go to war with Denmark without the latter getting substantial support for the allies.
Steve
Tanks should use HE, there is no point in using APFSDS. In case of a German attack using well positioned observers and drones to guide artillery should be enough to halt every attack. Drones are another big plus for defenders in Jutland; problem is long term lack of munitions and being in a turnaround of role of Armed Forces from civil defence to fighting Russians. Also note lack of artillery tubes; there is also a lack of AA-tubes.
Inventory of 2019 from old TL:
Available arms and units as I've been able to dig up. Note that not all will be manned.
Danish arms inventory
100? Leopard 1A5 MBT in storage
51 Leopard 2 MBT
50 M-113 MICV 25mm in store
22 Piranha MICV
44 CV 9035
233 M-113 APC M-1 .50cal 300 in store
56 M-113 armed with TOW in store
61 Mowag Piranha IIIC APC
84 Mowag Eagle IV gunshot detection (patrol)
Artillery
12 M-109A3 SP guns 2xbty.
20 120mm Mortars 3xbty.
132 TOW units
? 155mm towed guns in storage
Personnel:
army incl. Reserves 20.000
700 Carl Gustav 84mm AT
Home Guard 16.000 active, 30.000 reserves total
Special Forces 132+
of whom a number have seen service in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Kosovo, Bosnia and other parts of the world
Organization.:
Danish Division
1. Bde – Jutland 1xarm.batt., 1xarm.inf.batt., 1xmech.batt. (1940 3xarm.batt.)
2. Bde – Sjælland 5xmech.batt. 1xGuards batt. (1940 5xhvy.mech.batt)
Art. and support units Jutland
Airforce
30 F-16
14 EH-101 helo
11 Fennec 1x7,62 helo
9 MH-60R 1x.50cal 1x7,62
8 Lynx
4 C-130J
4 CL-604
27 T-17 Supporter 2xhardpoints
Radar surveillance 24/7/365!
Home Guard: Airfield defences
Navy
3 Frigates ASW capability
3 Corvettes ASW capability(mothballed)
2 Command Ships/Frigates ASW capability
1 Flyvefisken divingship able to carry torpedoes or missiles
3 Inspectionships/Frigates ASW capability
3 Inspectionships
7 Patrolboats
2 support ships
SBS
Radar surveillance 24/7/365
Home Guard: 30 light units
HQ all services Karup,Jutland
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