Philippines during Operation Downfall and Operation Olympic

[gillan1220]

According to this map, the island of Luzon would have been used as a staging point for Operation Olympic. There were over a million American troops (many of which were African-Americans) were shipped to the Philippines from Europe in mid-1945 for this upcoming role.

Some Filipino posters have suggested that the Philippine Commonwealth Army would have taken part in the invasion of Japan. Others have suggested the PCA would not have committed to the invasion, as the Philippines was left bankrupt after the war. Even in OTL, the Filipino involvement in the Korean War has been criticized as unnecessary for the moment since the Philippines was still recovering from the previous war and was fighting the Huks at home.

Others have suggested that Filipino soldiers would have acted as early UN peacekeepers just like what it did in the Congo in the 1960s.

[belushitd]

I strongly suspect that the PCA would have committed to the invasion for two reasons.

1. The Allies were going to need all the men they could get.
2. Uncle Sam was footing the bill for equipment and supplies, as well as transport.

A secondary effect is that the more the PCA gets involved, the more equipment and supplies they get access to, and the more they will take home with them afterwards.

Remember, the Phillipines being bankrupt after the war has nothing to do with what was going on DURING the war.

Finally, once MacArthur kept his "I shall return" promise, there was a vast wellspring of affection for the US. (or at least that's what the history books I've read tell me) Cashing in on this would not be difficult, but it would take time. I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of troops until mid 1946, after the PCA has set up a training pipeline and started sending people through it.

Belushi TD

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 14:06:55 GMT belushitd said:

I strongly suspect that the PCA would have committed to the invasion for two reasons.

1. The Allies were going to need all the men they could get.
2. Uncle Sam was footing the bill for equipment and supplies, as well as transport.

A secondary effect is that the more the PCA gets involved, the more equipment and supplies they get access to, and the more they will take home with them afterwards.

Remember, the Phillipines being bankrupt after the war has nothing to do with what was going on DURING the war.

Finally, once MacArthur kept his "I shall return" promise, there was a vast wellspring of affection for the US. (or at least that's what the history books I've read tell me) Cashing in on this would not be difficult, but it would take time. I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of troops until mid 1946, after the PCA has set up a training pipeline and started sending people through it.

Belushi TD

The PCA would probably take part in the post-war occupation of Japan. While the Philippines was bankrupt, desire for revenge against the Japanese was strong among the Filipino people. 

You are correct it would be around mid-1946 since the Philippines needed to rest after the war. Assuming the commonwealth still gets its independence on July 4, 1946, then Manila would likely stand with its ally and liberator for the final defeat of the Empire.

[lordroel]

Feb 10, 2022 17:21:42 GMT gillan1220 said:

Feb 10, 2022 14:06:55 GMT belushitd said:

I strongly suspect that the PCA would have committed to the invasion for two reasons.

1. The Allies were going to need all the men they could get.
2. Uncle Sam was footing the bill for equipment and supplies, as well as transport.

A secondary effect is that the more the PCA gets involved, the more equipment and supplies they get access to, and the more they will take home with them afterwards.

Remember, the Phillipines being bankrupt after the war has nothing to do with what was going on DURING the war.

Finally, once MacArthur kept his "I shall return" promise, there was a vast wellspring of affection for the US. (or at least that's what the history books I've read tell me) Cashing in on this would not be difficult, but it would take time. I wouldn't expect to see much in the way of troops until mid 1946, after the PCA has set up a training pipeline and started sending people through it.

Belushi TD

The PCA would probably take part in the post-war occupation of Japan. While the Philippines was bankrupt, desire for revenge against the Japanese was strong among the Filipino people. 

You are correct it would be around mid-1946 since the Philippines needed to rest after the war. Assuming the commonwealth still gets its independence on July 4, 1946, then Manila would likely stand with its ally and liberator for the final defeat of the Empire.

Do we have a orbat of the PCA at the end of the war of OTL so we can think what the PCA might bring into a invasion of Japan.

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 17:25:10 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 10, 2022 17:21:42 GMT gillan1220 said:

The PCA would probably take part in the post-war occupation of Japan. While the Philippines was bankrupt, desire for revenge against the Japanese was strong among the Filipino people. 

You are correct it would be around mid-1946 since the Philippines needed to rest after the war. Assuming the commonwealth still gets its independence on July 4, 1946, then Manila would likely stand with its ally and liberator for the final defeat of the Empire.

Do we have a orbat of the PCA at the end of the war of OTL so we can think what the PCA might bring into a invasion of Japan.

Not entirely an ORBAT. No records exist or at least they are patchy. This is what I got from OTL sources around 1944-1948 of military equipment procured for the PCA/AFP:

Administration of President Sergio Osmeña (1944-1946)
Army and other ground forces
~ More than 500 equipment of Sherman tanks, 4 M16 Hellcat tank destroyers, M10 Wolverine tank destroyers, M7 Priest SPA, numerous Greyhound armored vehicles, M3 Half Tracks, M38 Willy's Jeeps, and Trucks.

Reactivation of the Philippine Army Air Corps which was later renamed to the Philippine Army Air Force
- Ryan L-5 Stinson
- 22 x Douglas C-47 Skytrains

Naval forces
- 1 x Lighthouse tender retained her U.S. name and number while OSP service
- EX-USCG Light House tender Orchid (WAGL-240)
- For troop transports, this would probably involve reacquisition cargo ships, civilian ferries, or being assisted by the U.S. Merchant Marine

Administration of Manuel A. Roxas (1946-1948)
Philippine Army:
- Willy's Jeeps
- Greyhound APCs
- Heavy trucks for troop transport

Philippine Air Force
- 20 x F-51D Mustang
- PT-13 trainers
- Ammunition and bombs

Offshore Patrol/naval forces
- 1 x Submarine chaser PC-1563, later renamed as the RPS Negros Oriental (C-26)
- Ex-USCG light house tender Sequioa (WAGL-245)
- E-USCG light house tender Lauis Ledge
- 3 x ex-USCG survey vessels: Anemone, Lupine, Armistead Rust
- 1 x PCE formerly USS Quest (AM-281)
- 1 x PCE formelry USS PC-1564 Type 1376 submarine chase, renamed as the RPS Capiz
- 2 x U.S. Patrol Craft Sweepers PC-1376 class, renamed as the RPS Tarlac (P-12) and RPS Laguna (P-13)
- 1 x USS LST-1-class: renamed as the RPS Cotabato (LT-36)
- 1 x USS LST-542-class: renamed as the RPS Albay (LT-39)
- 1 Boeing Stearman PT-13 training aircraft for naval aviation

[lordroel]

Feb 10, 2022 17:40:18 GMT gillan1220 said:

Philippine Air Force
- 20 x F-51D Mustang
- PT-13 trainers
- Ammunition and bombs

Well the Philippine Army Air Corps as of OTL May 15, 1945 consisted of the:

1st Air Engineering Squadron under Second Lieutenant Alejandro Ojeda, (non-flying support unit).

1st Air Materiel Squadron under Lieutenant Mariano Gomez, (non-flying support unit).

Both the 1st Air Engineering Squadron and the 1st Air Materiel Squadron formed the 1st Air Service Group of the Philippine Army. Because the PAAC lacked facilities and equipment, the units were attached to the U.S. Army Air Corps 5th Air Service Command for maintenance and operation at Nielson Field.

On September 1, 1945, the 1st Troop Carrier Squadron under Captain Roberto H. Lim was activated, making it the first of the post-war PAAC’s flying units.

If Operation Olympic happens as plan i can see the 1st Fighter Squadron formed in OTL on March 2, 1946 being formed in 1945, maybe a second fighter squadron as well.

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 18:08:14 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 10, 2022 17:40:18 GMT gillan1220 said:

Philippine Air Force
- 20 x F-51D Mustang
- PT-13 trainers
- Ammunition and bombs

Well the Philippine Army Air Corps as of OTL May 15, 1945 consisted of the:

1st Air Engineering Squadron under Second Lieutenant Alejandro Ojeda, (non-flying support unit).

1st Air Materiel Squadron under Lieutenant Mariano Gomez, (non-flying support unit).

Both the 1st Air Engineering Squadron and the 1st Air Materiel Squadron formed the 1st Air Service Group of the Philippine Army. Because the PAAC lacked facilities and equipment, the units were attached to the U.S. Army Air Corps 5th Air Service Command for maintenance and operation at Nielson Field.

On September 1, 1945, the 1st Troop Carrier Squadron under Captain Roberto H. Lim was activated, making it the first of the post-war PAAC’s flying units.

If Operation Olympic happens as plan i can see the 1st Fighter Squadron formed in OTL on March 2, 1946 being formed in 1945, maybe a second fighter squadron as well.

I could see a quicker transfer of the P-51s, ammunition, and bombs if the U.S. needs to equip the Philippines as soon as possible. Some of those ships I mentioned may either be delayed to be delivered to the Philippine Navy as the U.S. would need every ship in their fleet.

On the other hand, the Aztec Eagles of the Mexican Air Force may lend a hand here. They would be based in Luzon and Formosa.

[lordroel]

Feb 10, 2022 18:12:00 GMT gillan1220 said:

Feb 10, 2022 18:08:14 GMT lordroel said:

Well the Philippine Army Air Corps as of OTL May 15, 1945 consisted of the:

1st Air Engineering Squadron under Second Lieutenant Alejandro Ojeda, (non-flying support unit).

1st Air Materiel Squadron under Lieutenant Mariano Gomez, (non-flying support unit).

Both the 1st Air Engineering Squadron and the 1st Air Materiel Squadron formed the 1st Air Service Group of the Philippine Army. Because the PAAC lacked facilities and equipment, the units were attached to the U.S. Army Air Corps 5th Air Service Command for maintenance and operation at Nielson Field.

On September 1, 1945, the 1st Troop Carrier Squadron under Captain Roberto H. Lim was activated, making it the first of the post-war PAAC’s flying units.

If Operation Olympic happens as plan i can see the 1st Fighter Squadron formed in OTL on March 2, 1946 being formed in 1945, maybe a second fighter squadron as well.

I could see a quicker transfer of the P-51s, ammunition, and bombs if the U.S. needs to equip the Philippines as soon as possible. Some of those ships I mentioned may either be delayed to be delivered to the Philippine Navy as the U.S. would need every ship in their fleet.

On the other hand, the Aztec Eagles of the Mexican Air Force may lend a hand here. They would be based in Luzon and Formosa.

They also could be expanded to have more than one squadron. 

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 18:15:01 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 10, 2022 18:12:00 GMT gillan1220 said:

I could see a quicker transfer of the P-51s, ammunition, and bombs if the U.S. needs to equip the Philippines as soon as possible. Some of those ships I mentioned may either be delayed to be delivered to the Philippine Navy as the U.S. would need every ship in their fleet.

On the other hand, the Aztec Eagles of the Mexican Air Force may lend a hand here. They would be based in Luzon and Formosa.

They also could be expanded to have more than one squadron. 

The Philippine Army Air Force and the Mexican Air Force would provide close air support to the U.S. Marines landing in the Ryukyus or in the Home Islands. Meanwhile, other forces such as the British, the French, Aussies, Kiwis, and Dutch would probably amass in Subic Bay and other parts of Luzon. The Philippines would have been one large FOB for the allies in the invasion of Japan. It would be a bigger Ulithi Atoll.

[lordroel]

Feb 10, 2022 18:17:21 GMT gillan1220 said:

Feb 10, 2022 18:15:01 GMT lordroel said:

They also could be expanded to have more than one squadron. 

The Philippine Army Air Force and the Mexican Air Force would provide close air support to the U.S. Marines landing in the Ryukyus or in the Home Islands. Meanwhile, other forces such as the British, the French, Aussies, Kiwis, and Dutch would probably amass in Subic Bay and other parts of Luzon. The Philippines would have been one large FOB for the allies in the invasion of Japan. It would be a bigger Ulithi Atoll.

I can see the Philippine Commonwealth Army not being used on the front line but used to police the areas behind the front line.

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 18:19:56 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 10, 2022 18:17:21 GMT gillan1220 said:

The Philippine Army Air Force and the Mexican Air Force would provide close air support to the U.S. Marines landing in the Ryukyus or in the Home Islands. Meanwhile, other forces such as the British, the French, Aussies, Kiwis, and Dutch would probably amass in Subic Bay and other parts of Luzon. The Philippines would have been one large FOB for the allies in the invasion of Japan. It would be a bigger Ulithi Atoll.

I can see the Philippine Commonwealth Army not being used on the front line but used to police the areas behind the front line.

True, the PCA would do the occupational duties or peacekeeping like what Filipino peacekeepers did in Congo, Golan Heights, Cambodia, East Timor, Iraq, and Haiti.

Maybe too it might be involved in counterinsurgency ops especially if these soldiers were veteran resistance fighters operating in the jungles of the archipelago.

[lordroel]

Feb 10, 2022 18:22:34 GMT gillan1220 said:

Maybe too it might be involved in counterinsurgency ops especially if these soldiers were veteran resistance fighters operating in the jungles of the archipelago.

And they will need it if they going to fight on Japan itself.

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 18:29:48 GMT lordroel said:

Feb 10, 2022 18:22:34 GMT gillan1220 said:

Maybe too it might be involved in counterinsurgency ops especially if these soldiers were veteran resistance fighters operating in the jungles of the archipelago.

And they will need it if they going to fight on Japan itself.

Bolos vs bamboo spears, this would be bloody.

[belushitd]

One thing to keep in mind. The vast majority of the equipment that the Philippine army got in the 45 to 48 era was stuff that it wasn't worth shipping back to the US. The tanks, armored cars, jeeps, all that stuff, even the P-51s, were literally NOT WORTH shipping back to the US, because it would cost more to ship them back than sending a cargo ship back to the US empty, and there were huge stockpiles of these items sitting around waiting to get used.

Same thing going on in England in the last several months of the war. It was easier and cheaper to whistle up a few new P-51s from stores than it was to repair anything that had more than light to moderate damage.

Had the war gone on longer, the Philippines would have ended up as a FOB, as someone said up thread a bit. Once Japan finally gives up, the vast majority of the equipment and material will be cheaper to just give to the government rather than shipping back to the US. I'd even argue that the war continuing for another year or so would be better for the Philippines, as they would have another year of open purse strings from the US, and there would have been far more transfer of stuff and more employment of civilians by the US military. Once the war is over, the purse strings get tied shut.

Imagine it! The war goes on for another year, and all the various plans out there get completed. More cargo ships, more DEs maybe DDs, minesweepers... More planes, P-51s and C-47s.... More tanks, jeeps, stuff like that. Worst comes to worst, the government sells it off for scrap and has more cash to run the country. Maybe go the Russian route, demilitarize the tanks and turn them into tractors.

I suspect it likely that getting the Philippine Air Force into combat would be a "hearts and heads" kind of thing from a propaganda standpoint. "Look at us! We gave you your independence AND we are giving you the tools to fight your former oppressors!" Not to mention the harshness of the Japanese occupation meant that there were a LOT of people who would have been perfectly happy to go fight the Japanese.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there was at least one and maybe more Japanese armies still fighting on September 2, 1945 in the Philippines. Its entirely likely that these forces would continue to fight as long as the homeland had not surrendered. Lots of opportunity there for the new Philippine army to get trained and end up on the front line with the American army, not unlike the days of Battan in 1941/42.

Belushi TD

[lordroel]

Feb 10, 2022 20:15:08 GMT belushitd said:

One thing to keep in mind. The vast majority of the equipment that the Philippine army got in the 45 to 48 era was stuff that it wasn't worth shipping back to the US. The tanks, armored cars, jeeps, all that stuff, even the P-51s, were literally NOT WORTH shipping back to the US, because it would cost more to ship them back than sending a cargo ship back to the US empty, and there were huge stockpiles of these items sitting around waiting to get used.

Same thing going on in England in the last several months of the war. It was easier and cheaper to whistle up a few new P-51s from stores than it was to repair anything that had more than light to moderate damage.

Had the war gone on longer, the Philippines would have ended up as a FOB, as someone said up thread a bit. Once Japan finally gives up, the vast majority of the equipment and material will be cheaper to just give to the government rather than shipping back to the US. I'd even argue that the war continuing for another year or so would be better for the Philippines, as they would have another year of open purse strings from the US, and there would have been far more transfer of stuff and more employment of civilians by the US military. Once the war is over, the purse strings get tied shut.

Imagine it! The war goes on for another year, and all the various plans out there get completed. More cargo ships, more DEs maybe DDs, minesweepers... More planes, P-51s and C-47s.... More tanks, jeeps, stuff like that. Worst comes to worst, the government sells it off for scrap and has more cash to run the country. Maybe go the Russian route, demilitarize the tanks and turn them into tractors.

I suspect it likely that getting the Philippine Air Force into combat would be a "hearts and heads" kind of thing from a propaganda standpoint. "Look at us! We gave you your independence AND we are giving you the tools to fight your former oppressors!" Not to mention the harshness of the Japanese occupation meant that there were a LOT of people who would have been perfectly happy to go fight the Japanese.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there was at least one and maybe more Japanese armies still fighting on September 2, 1945 in the Philippines. Its entirely likely that these forces would continue to fight as long as the homeland had not surrendered. Lots of opportunity there for the new Philippine army to get trained and end up on the front line with the American army, not unlike the days of Battan in 1941/42.

Belushi TD

Must be the Forty-First Army (Japan) you are speaking off, they withdraw to the mountains of southern Luzon for a protracted guerrilla campaign, continuing to harass Allied forces until the surrender of Japan, by which time his army had been reduced to just 6500 men.

This is something the PCA can do, freeing up American personal for Operation Olympic.