Philippines during Operation Downfall and Operation Olympic

[gillan1220]

Feb 10, 2022 20:15:08 GMT belushitd said:

One thing to keep in mind. The vast majority of the equipment that the Philippine army got in the 45 to 48 era was stuff that it wasn't worth shipping back to the US. The tanks, armored cars, jeeps, all that stuff, even the P-51s, were literally NOT WORTH shipping back to the US, because it would cost more to ship them back than sending a cargo ship back to the US empty, and there were huge stockpiles of these items sitting around waiting to get used.

Same thing going on in England in the last several months of the war. It was easier and cheaper to whistle up a few new P-51s from stores than it was to repair anything that had more than light to moderate damage.

Had the war gone on longer, the Philippines would have ended up as a FOB, as someone said up thread a bit. Once Japan finally gives up, the vast majority of the equipment and material will be cheaper to just give to the government rather than shipping back to the US. I'd even argue that the war continuing for another year or so would be better for the Philippines, as they would have another year of open purse strings from the US, and there would have been far more transfer of stuff and more employment of civilians by the US military. Once the war is over, the purse strings get tied shut.

Imagine it! The war goes on for another year, and all the various plans out there get completed. More cargo ships, more DEs maybe DDs, minesweepers... More planes, P-51s and C-47s.... More tanks, jeeps, stuff like that. Worst comes to worst, the government sells it off for scrap and has more cash to run the country. Maybe go the Russian route, demilitarize the tanks and turn them into tractors.

I suspect it likely that getting the Philippine Air Force into combat would be a "hearts and heads" kind of thing from a propaganda standpoint. "Look at us! We gave you your independence AND we are giving you the tools to fight your former oppressors!" Not to mention the harshness of the Japanese occupation meant that there were a LOT of people who would have been perfectly happy to go fight the Japanese.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there was at least one and maybe more Japanese armies still fighting on September 2, 1945 in the Philippines. Its entirely likely that these forces would continue to fight as long as the homeland had not surrendered. Lots of opportunity there for the new Philippine army to get trained and end up on the front line with the American army, not unlike the days of Battan in 1941/42.

Belushi TD

Good point Belushi TD.

There were even hundreds of P-38 Lightnings in Clark Field, but they were sadly just sold for scrap, buried, or thrown into the ocean after the war. True, the U.S. was more than willing to give away surplus equipment. There were over 3-5 million M1 Garands available to all American allies, hence why the Philippines got some. Many of these ended up in Korea and even in use by South Vietnam. 

There were also lots of ships stored in mothballs, just waiting to be activated. These too were sold to Allied nations such as Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, and Latin American countries. 

I could understand that Filipinos would want revenge on the Japanese for war crimes committed such as Bataan, the comfort women, the rapes, the infanticides (throwing infants in the air and catching them with katanas or bayonets), beheading of POWs, and the Manila Massacre. I was told from historians that the people of the Philippines celebrated when the news of the atomic bombs hit. 

Yes, there were still holdouts in the Philippines past September 2, 1945. One of the famous ones was Hiroo Onoda, who fought until March 9, 1974. Similar cases were seen in Indonesia, the Marianas, Guam, and Southeast Asia.

[belushitd]

Well, them, and the Shobu group on Luzon (115,000 mostly ineffective men).

I'm absolutely certain that the Filipinos would want nothing more than to eliminate these forces if they were left to wither on the vine for much longer than the surrender date.

Also, we should keep in mind that the whole idea of mothballing ships didn't happen until 1946. If we project the war continuing into 1946, we have to assume that they're not going to start mothballing ships until roughly a year after the war is over. Its far more effective and cost efficient to train up the Filipino crew next to the American crew and then hand the ship off as soon as the new crew is ready to run it by themselves. Why put a ship INTO mothballs and then pull it right OUT of mothballs? 

Belushi TD

[gillan1220]

Feb 11, 2022 18:05:46 GMT belushitd said:

Well, them, and the Shobu group on Luzon (115,000 mostly ineffective men).

I'm absolutely certain that the Filipinos would want nothing more than to eliminate these forces if they were left to wither on the vine for much longer than the surrender date.

Also, we should keep in mind that the whole idea of mothballing ships didn't happen until 1946. If we project the war continuing into 1946, we have to assume that they're not going to start mothballing ships until roughly a year after the war is over. Its far more effective and cost efficient to train up the Filipino crew next to the American crew and then hand the ship off as soon as the new crew is ready to run it by themselves. Why put a ship INTO mothballs and then pull it right OUT of mothballs? 

Belushi TD

I was referring to the OTL ships that were in San Diego or Norfolk just waiting to be scrapped or sold to allies. Since this scenario of mine has Operation Downfall, Olympic, and Coronet occurring, these ships would see action until the war ends in 1947-48. Then the mothballing or selling to the allies can occur.

[gillan1220]

The other forces in the Philippines in 1944-45. Originally posted in the British and Netherlands Armed Forces thread.

THEY WERE HERE: OTHER NATIONS FORCES WHO WHERE IN THE PHILIPPINE LIBERATION (1944-45) DURING WORLD WAR TWO:
By CDR Mark R Condeno

Unknown to many, apart from the United States Armed Forces, Six Allied Nations sent their Forces to the Philippines as part of the Liberation Forces.

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA:
A staunch ally of the United States,the Philippines and Australia share a long military history that begun in WW2. Australia deployed the Royal Australian Navy to the Philippines, they participated in the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October 1944 and the Lingayen Gulf Landings in January 1945.

The Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) on the other hand deployed a Signals intelligence unit at Tacloban, Leyte, while a RAAF Airfield Construction Unit was deployed in the Island of Mindoro. RAAF Beaufighter Aircraft were based in Sanga-Sanga Airbase,Tawi-Tawi. Two Squadrons of RAAF B-24 Liberator Bombers were based in Puerto Princesa City, Palawan.

A small group of Australian Army Officers were embedded with US Army units during the Philippine Liberation.

Though as early as 1942, Filipino OSP/USAFFE Transport Ships were deploying from Darwin, Australia to the Philippines against the Japanese blockade. Two known ships were the Florence D and Don Isidro.

2 Filipino Parachute Battalions were also training in Australia in 1943.

CANADA:
As part of the British Pacific Fleet, the Commonwealth of Canada deployed their Flagship, the Light Cruiser HMCS Uganda with San Pedro Bay, Leyte as its anchorage.

MEXICO:
A Squadron of the Mexican Air Force was deployed to the Philippines based in Porac, Pampanga.

Armed with US Republic P-47 Thunderbolt Fighters,t he 201st Mexican Expeditionary Air Force (MEAF) Squadron provided Close Air Support to the Filipino Guerrillas of the United States Forces in Northern Luzon (USAFIP-NL) and US Army units during the Battle of Bessang Pass.

NETHERLANDS:
Four Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy comprised the 8th Submarine Flotilla of the British Royal Navy operating out of Subic Bay in April 1945 with the South China Sea as its AOR.

NEW ZEALAND:
As part of the British Pacific Fleet (BPF), the Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) deployed the Fiji-class Heavy Cruiser HMNZS Gambia and the Hospital Ship HMNZS Mauganui, both ships present at Leyte.

UNITED KINGDOM of GREAT BRITAIN:
Prior to the and up to the Japanese Invasion,MI6 Personnel were already in country.

By the liberation period, a large part of the Royal Navys British Pacific Fleet were present and operated from Leyte Gulf totalling to about 80 warships of various types. 7 Submarines of the Royal Navy were based in Subic Bay.

A number of Royal Air Force (RAF) Personnel were attached with the RAAF units in country

Lastly, a Regiment of the British Army led by a lieutenant Colonel was in the Luzon Liberation Campaign.
-----
I'd imagine other countries contributing to the invasion of Japan based out in the Philippines would be France, since French Indochina was liberated. I need to see if the French Navy has obtained much of their ships.

[simon darkshade]

Why does the USAAF need Filipino aircraft or personnel? They are hardly hard pressed for numbers or planes and training the personnel would be an extra expense simply not warranted.

The role of the Philippines during the invasion of Japan was a base area. Just that. Any further information would have come out in the interim 76 years and, to the best of my knowledge (based on multiple books, papers, websites and more over 20 years of reading on it), it hasn’t.

MacArthur was reticent on Indian troops on some rather dubious grounds; they were far more experienced and ready than reconstituted PCA formations. Additionally, the Australians were wasted in Borneo and other backwater theatres rather than give them a cut of the action. Why is the situation for the Philippines going to be radically different?

The notion and the rather enthusiastic expansion on the idea does speak to a desire, as it were, to piggyback the Philippines onto a whole array of historical events and circumstances. This is all well and good, as everyone has a certain interest in seeing their country come to the fore. However, the evidence does not support it here.

The Filipino posters referenced in the first post are simply wrong and are falling into the trap of making it all about them. There is natural parochialism and then there is just going over the top. This is an example of the latter.

Peacekeepers? This is 1945, not 1956. The concept and need was not there.

The facts suggest a far more prosaic duty of rear area security in the Philippines and local mopping up operations. The US was bring over whole field armies and air forces worth of men and equipment.

[gillan1220]

Feb 12, 2022 23:12:25 GMT simon darkshade said:

Why does the USAAF need Filipino aircraft or personnel? They are hardly hard pressed for numbers or planes and training the personnel would be an extra expense simply not warranted.

It does not need Filipinos. Rather, the Philippine Army Air Corps or Army AF could send additional aircraft over the skies of Japan.

[simon darkshade]

I refer you to my above post - the USA had more than enough pilots and aircraft. There was enough logistical trouble in getting the RAF Tiger Force set up, let alone a much smaller country without the same oversupply of trained pilots and funding. The aircraft that would have operated over Japan would have been bombers, carrier aircraft or tactical aircraft operating from Okinawa. The Philippines could not supply the first two categories at all and, as said, their ability to field and supply the latter is so minimal as to be nonsensical.

Once again, not every nation gets to be involved in every event as a frontline player. In this case, the Philippines would certainly not be needed or offer anything necessary for the invasion of Japan.

We also have the established parochialism of US commanders who weren’t even keen on having the British Pacific Fleet operate with the USN against Japan and opposed the use of Indian troops; indeed, the use of any troops not just equipped with US weapons, but organised along their TOE.

The article cited above by Cdr Condeno is so littered with errors and misrepresentation that it makes me concerned that such output comes from a (presumed) professional of substantive rank.

The Philippines contributed a great deal to their own liberation, but that very circumstance of occupation made them unable to contribute to any substantive operations beyond their own shores. Developing the capacity to do so doesn’t happen in a short time.

[kasumigenx]

I figured out that Quezon, Bonifacio and Aguinaldo actually were both against Mindanao's self-determination from day 1 but Quezon was more covert while Rizal was not against Mindanao's self determination, I am bringing this up since this affected the history of the Philippines in general.

This is why the philippines is the way it is now.