stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 14, 2023 22:56:26 GMT
1861 Confederate states of America ISOT to 3000 BC Does the Confederacy rule the world? Is slavery going to persist in the CSA? The world of 3000 BC has no markets for cotton so there is less incentive to keep slavery.
Yes slavery will persist because the white majority want it to, as a way of keeping the blacks under control. Not to mention other than those opponents of slavery brought along there are few opponents of the policy anywhere in the world.
Yes the cotton market will collapse as with a number of others and the CSA will have some economic adjustments to make but they will probably recover fairly quickly and frankly for the foreseeable future the world is their oyster.  |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 19, 2023 12:50:26 GMT
1870 Britain (no colonies) to 220 BC, two years before the 2nd Punic War.
Whom does Britain support?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 21, 2023 17:39:22 GMT
France from 1798 AD ISOT to 1756 AD - start of the Seven Years War.
Napoleon vs Frederick the Great?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 23, 2023 8:07:55 GMT
Napoleonic France from 1800 AD ISOT to East Asia in 1600 AD.
Napoleon learns of his new circumstances - and decided to create an empire.
Where does he invade first? An attack on Korea seems the most logical but an invasion of Japan is also an interesting option.
After he takes over Korea, time will come to attack Ming China. Can he take over China? I guess the initial conquest might be quite easy.
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What other directions of expansion are possible so that France does not overstretch itself? India? A colony in Australia and North America?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2023 10:32:24 GMT
Napoleonic France from 1800 AD ISOT to East Asia in 1600 AD. Napoleon learns of his new circumstances - and decided to create an empire. Where does he invade first? An attack on Korea seems the most logical but an invasion of Japan is also an interesting option. After he takes over Korea, time will come to attack Ming China. Can he take over China? I guess the initial conquest might be quite easy. . What other directions of expansion are possible so that France does not overstretch itself? India? A colony in Australia and North America?
Well he might go that way or he might seek to exert influence over 1600AD Europe. Would be a problem projecting power that far but could be tempting to him and his population. There is a substantial technological and social advantage that his French empire would have.
If not in the short term he has a lot of options in E Asia and related areas. Taking China should be possible but holding it long term, without his France being absorbed into China is the traditional problem for a group conquering China.
Elsewhere Japan might be a popular option and also perhaps the Philippines as its already under Spanish rule/influence and hence might be easier to absorb. India could also be an option for imperial power and wealth as well as the DEI, or at least the spice islands which would be in relatively easy reach for the new France and is a great source of wealth at this stage. In the short term I don't think Australia or N America would be of that much interest for Napoleon as he didn't really seem that interested in settler colonization although that could be an option for a successor. Depending on how he's feeling he might tru for Spanish America as both Mexico and Peru are very wealthy colonies at this stage. Its a long way across the Pacific but for Peru probably easier for his France than Spain which would be reliant on both crossing the Atlantic with more primitive technology and then across Mexico and down the Pacific coast or around Cape Horn.
It should be remembered that while not the bloated giant it was in 1810/12 Napoleonic France in 1800 [when he was effectively dictator] was somewhat larger than in 1789 or 1816. Checking an historical atlas by 1795 it had already annexed what's now Belgium and Germany west of the Rhine. As such its got a significant population. Also I assume that 1600 France is still there back in Europe with Henri IV on the throne having converted to Catholicism for the crown but with a large measure of tolerance, albeit that wouldn't last.
Also it might depend on exactly where France was. If physically attached to E Asia, especially if bordering China its going to be pretty much impossible for the two nations not to go to war. Not to mention issues of France adjusting to a new climate - including things like typhoons and possibly monsoon conditions - and disease will have impacts. Plus its now close to or on the ring of fire, which could be a nasty shock.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 23, 2023 11:53:53 GMT
stevepIt'd be interesting to think what happens if China truly absorbs France Let's say Napoleon falls in love with Chinese culture and decides to relocate his capital to China. He marries a Chinese woman and founds a new Chinese dynasty. He introduces European technology and science to China. Such a modernized China would be an unstoppable juggernaut that could conquer the world. It'd make a very good TL!
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 23, 2023 19:04:43 GMT
'2020 Israel To 1940'.
Say it happens on January 1st of both years, which is early enough to prevent Covid from spreading around.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 23, 2023 19:22:25 GMT
'2020 Israel To 1940'. Say it happens on January 1st of both years, which is early enough to prevent Covid from spreading around. The IDF is likely deployed to France and invades Germany immediately. The war is over by the end of the year. A single Merkava can destroy 30 German tanks before it runs out of ammo and F-15s/F-16s can make a short work of any Bf-109 and Ju-87. Alternatively Israel deploys it's nuclear weapons towards Berlin but that's a less likely scenario More interesting stuff will happen after the war with all the Israeli tech spreading around the world and accelerating technological development. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 23, 2023 20:25:57 GMT
'2020 Israel To 1940'. Say it happens on January 1st of both years, which is early enough to prevent Covid from spreading around. For starters:
As it is 1 January 1940 both France and Britain will be somewhat annoyed by this intrusion on their parts of the Middle East. Attack in the West have not yet happened and the French and British need being told of whats to happen and how to counter it. Of course the first Israeli priority will be defeating the Nazi Regime. Getting into Europe to do so will take some time before the Brits and French have been convinced - following that Germany will be defeated and Germany de-nazified. Nuking Bergtesgarten and Berlin could be in the cards which would also serve to bring the message home with any disbelievers.
Then the Israelis have to negotiate the British and French regarding areas of the Middle East in order to settle several million Jews - if they will be convinced to move! And tell Stalin to let Jews emigrate from Sovietunion.
What tech to spread to the rest of the World will be closely guarded by the Israeli Government - I think them rather good at this.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2023 22:54:35 GMT
stevep It'd be interesting to think what happens if China truly absorbs France Let's say Napoleon falls in love with Chinese culture and decides to relocate his capital to China. He marries a Chinese woman and founds a new Chinese dynasty. He introduces European technology and science to China. Such a modernized China would be an unstoppable juggernaut that could conquer the world. It'd make a very good TL!
He might be tempted by such a path to secure his power in China although it could go down less well in 1800 France.
The problem with introducing western technology is that you would have to overcome Chinese cultural opposition. Its not impossible but its not going to be easy, at least in the short term. They will be willing to get access to military technology, although that could also give too much power to the military but overcoming the Confusionist mindset to allow continued development would be harder.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 23, 2023 23:03:38 GMT
'2020 Israel To 1940'. Say it happens on January 1st of both years, which is early enough to prevent Covid from spreading around. For starters:
As it is 1 January 1940 both France and Britain will be somewhat annoyed by this intrusion on their parts of the Middle East. Attack in the West have not yet happened and the French and British need being told of whats to happen and how to counter it. Of course the first Israeli priority will be defeating the Nazi Regime. Getting into Europe to do so will take some time before the Brits and French have been convinced - following that Germany will be defeated and Germany de-nazified. Nuking Bergtesgarten and Berlin could be in the cards which would also serve to bring the message home with any disbelievers.
Then the Israelis have to negotiate the British and French regarding areas of the Middle East in order to settle several million Jews - if they will be convinced to move! And tell Stalin to let Jews emigrate from Sovietunion.
What tech to spread to the rest of the World will be closely guarded by the Israeli Government - I think them rather good at this.
Definitely agree that Nazi Germany is going down fast and possibly very hard. Although without the historical experience of Nazi atrocities it could be difficult for the western powers to accept the lengths needed to deNazify Germany and not sure what the stance of fascist Italy and other right wing states in Europe will be.
The British will be unhappy with the loss of territory but since it removes a difficult problem for them not too greatly so, especially if Israel offers some information and other support. Wonder if this might include the identity of the Soviet spies in Britain? Not sure what will happen to Gaza and the West Bank in this scenario as to whether their brought along or not but that's a question for OK as the originator of the idea.
Israel will offer refuge to any Jews who wish to come - and are allowed by local authorities - and many may welcome the idea given both the promised security and also the advances in technology although more conservative elements might not be happy with social changes in Israel compared to the world they know.
Agree Israel will want to keep a tight control over a lot of technology, especially in nuclear and electronic matters I suspect. However do assorted diplomatic outposts comes along as well as their likely to provide a fair amount of info which would help the 1940 world - at least as far as their willing to accept it. Decolonization in this world could be a longer and bloodier affair without the western powers having been weakened so much.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 24, 2023 2:24:57 GMT
stevep It'd be interesting to think what happens if China truly absorbs France Let's say Napoleon falls in love with Chinese culture and decides to relocate his capital to China. He marries a Chinese woman and founds a new Chinese dynasty. He introduces European technology and science to China. Such a modernized China would be an unstoppable juggernaut that could conquer the world. It'd make a very good TL!
He might be tempted by such a path to secure his power in China although it could go down less well in 1800 France.
The problem with introducing western technology is that you would have to overcome Chinese cultural opposition. Its not impossible but its not going to be easy, at least in the short term. They will be willing to get access to military technology, although that could also give too much power to the military but overcoming the Confusionist mindset to allow continued development would be harder.
But what if he does manage to convince them? We now have China with western tech and the first expansionist ruler in history. What can they achieve given their massive population? |
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575
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Post by 575 on Nov 24, 2023 9:47:25 GMT
For starters:
As it is 1 January 1940 both France and Britain will be somewhat annoyed by this intrusion on their parts of the Middle East. Attack in the West have not yet happened and the French and British need being told of whats to happen and how to counter it. Of course the first Israeli priority will be defeating the Nazi Regime. Getting into Europe to do so will take some time before the Brits and French have been convinced - following that Germany will be defeated and Germany de-nazified. Nuking Bergtesgarten and Berlin could be in the cards which would also serve to bring the message home with any disbelievers.
Then the Israelis have to negotiate the British and French regarding areas of the Middle East in order to settle several million Jews - if they will be convinced to move! And tell Stalin to let Jews emigrate from Sovietunion.
What tech to spread to the rest of the World will be closely guarded by the Israeli Government - I think them rather good at this.
Definitely agree that Nazi Germany is going down fast and possibly very hard. Although without the historical experience of Nazi atrocities it could be difficult for the western powers to accept the lengths needed to deNazify Germany and not sure what the stance of fascist Italy and other right wing states in Europe will be.
The British will be unhappy with the loss of territory but since it removes a difficult problem for them not too greatly so, especially if Israel offers some information and other support. Wonder if this might include the identity of the Soviet spies in Britain? Not sure what will happen to Gaza and the West Bank in this scenario as to whether their brought along or not but that's a question for OK as the originator of the idea.
Israel will offer refuge to any Jews who wish to come - and are allowed by local authorities - and many may welcome the idea given both the promised security and also the advances in technology although more conservative elements might not be happy with social changes in Israel compared to the world they know.
Agree Israel will want to keep a tight control over a lot of technology, especially in nuclear and electronic matters I suspect. However do assorted diplomatic outposts comes along as well as their likely to provide a fair amount of info which would help the 1940 world - at least as far as their willing to accept it. Decolonization in this world could be a longer and bloodier affair without the western powers having been weakened so much.
Well I didn't want to open the can of Worms of bringing back West Bank and Gaza.. Israeli settlers and Palestinians and various organizations.. A British - well "You chaps seems to run things efficiently so agree that the Cis-Jordania controlled by You would be a good way of delineate borders. River lines tend to ease the understanding of parties. Jolly good - free us of wasting troops keeping the peace there - damn troublesome fellas on both sides. Gaza? fine we'll throw that in too! Now off You go, see we have a kinda major war running. Radar sets for aircraft - sounds rather good, thank you. Think You'd have a talk with Watson-Watt and Sir Kingsley Wood - one moment I'll have my secretary inform them that You'll be on the way to the Air Ministry." would serve to avert that somewhat. The French may be a little itchy about the Golan Hights.
De-colonization well the British may want to hold onto more and the French in a better position to do so too without needing aid in rebuilding.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 24, 2023 9:53:11 GMT
Well I didn't want to open the can of Worms of bringing back West Bank and Gaza.. Israeli settlers and Palestinians and various organizations.. It is a can of worms sins 1948, that is why having Israel Palestinian involved in a ISOT is almost every time bordering on current events. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 24, 2023 12:29:17 GMT
Greece from 336 BC ISOT to 200 BC - start of the Second Macedonian War
It's now Alexander vs Rome.
Who wins? A military genius should do better against Rome than his successors over a century later.
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