The ISOT thread

[Otto Kretschmer]

Sumer and Egypt from 3000 BC ISOT to 8000 BC.

[Otto Kretschmer]

WI: maize and potatoes ISOT to Ancient Greece 800 BC.

Population grows three times until 500 BC

What can Greece do with such a huge population?

[Otto Kretschmer]

2020 Lichtenstein ISOT to 3500 BC. Can it change Europe enough to protect it from Indo Europeans?

[stevep]

Dec 14, 2023 11:45:11 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

2020 Lichtenstein ISOT to 3500 BC. Can it change Europe enough to protect it from Indo Europeans?

  From Wiki

Liechtenstein is bordered by Switzerland to the west and south and Austria to the east and north. It is Europe's fourth-smallest country, with an area of just over 160 square kilometres (62 square miles) and a population of 38,749 (as of 2019).[15] Divided into 11 municipalities, its capital is Vaduz, and its largest municipality is Schaan. It is also the smallest country to border two countries.[16]

The Liechtenstein National Police is responsible for keeping order within the country. It consists of 87 field officers and 38 civilian staff, totaling 125 employees. All officers are equipped with small arms. The country has one of the world's lowest crime rates. Liechtenstein's prison holds few, if any, inmates, and those with sentences over two years are transferred to Austrian jurisdiction.[119] The Liechtenstein National Police maintains a trilateral treaty with Austria and Switzerland that enables close cross-border cooperation among the police forces of the three countries.[120]

Liechtenstein follows a policy of neutrality and is one of the few countries in the world that maintain no military although its police force maintains a paramilitary force, the Princely Liechtenstein Security Corps, within the organisation that might act as its de facto army if an invasion of Liechtenstein ever occurred.

  

  As such the 1st question is how long could Liechtenstein survive as a viable state.  It has a decent level of high tech but how much of that could be supported without external trade and what power supplies exist inside the country itself isn't clear.

[Otto Kretschmer]

stevep
Whether it survives as a viable state is kinda irrelevant. What matters is the knowledge possessed by its inhabitants - knowledge of stuff like writing, metallurgy, agricultural knowledge etc etc. An average citizen of Lichtenstein is intellectually on a completely different level compared to an average Neolithic person. It's this knowledge that is going to change Europe.

The first years are gonna be tough obviously. But after several years I expect a viable community to emerge.

[stevep]

Dec 14, 2023 17:31:53 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

stevep
Whether it survives as a viable state is kinda irrelevant. What matters is the knowledge possessed by its inhabitants - knowledge of stuff like writing, metallurgy, agricultural knowledge etc etc. An average citizen of Lichtenstein is intellectually on a completely different level compared to an average Neolithic person. It's this knowledge that is going to change Europe.

The first years are gonna be tough obviously. But after several years I expect a viable community to emerge.

  The average person in the modern developed world especially is relatively poorly positioned to pass on the lower level of technology that would be transmittable to the down-timers.  They could mention things like knowledge of germ theory and disease transmission but not give evidence that would be clear to a local.  Also how many of those people could work an iron age farm, a smithy of the time, weave baskets, hunt once their 'magical' weapons cease working etc.  Let alone all the problems of communicating with the down-timers and then getting them to accept what their being told?

  In terms of things like writing for instance how many people would know how to produce paper, pens, or even pencils, or be able to adjust to sat clay tablets - which might not be the idea medium in cool and wet European conditions.

[Deleted]

The territory held by Chiang Kai-shek's government and forces and the territory held by *genuinely* KMT-allied warlords and militias (so not Mao et al) transported from the time of noon in Nanking on May 1st 1935 to noon in Nanking on May 1st 1987.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Dec 14, 2023 22:21:59 GMT @kapesq said:

The territory held by Chiang Kai-shek's government and forces and the territory held by *genuinely* KMT-allied warlords and militias (so not Mao et al) transported from the time of noon in Nanking on May 1st 1935 to noon in Nanking on May 1st 1987.

There is a civil war in China between KMT and remaining communist territories.

[stevep]

Dec 14, 2023 22:21:59 GMT @kapesq said:

The territory held by Chiang Kai-shek's government and forces and the territory held by *genuinely* KMT-allied warlords and militias (so not Mao et al) transported from the time of noon in Nanking on May 1st 1935 to noon in Nanking on May 1st 1987.

  Can you clarify as to what areas you would include in this?  For instance how many of the warlords would you include as genuine KMT allied?  If pretty much all of them you have very little left of the CCP controlled territory from 1987, only really Manchuria [which was Japanese controlled in 1935 and Tibet and Sinkiang, which were outside Chinese control at this point.  Given that the CCP itself in 35 are on the move in various stages of the Long March it would be difficult to say what if any areas were actually under their control in 1935.

  Assuming the above the CCP would still have a significant chance because Manchuria itself would probably have more - and better equipped - forces than the KMT and its allies, especially since its a prime area of tension with the USSR and has a substantial industrial base.  Not sure what nuclear weapons the CCP would have in this 1987 but things could go either way although the CCP might have an edge.  Although the KMT hasn't been discredited by nearly a decade of Japanese invasion, devastation, defeats and corruption.

  The other issue of course is what does external forces do?  Not sure what attitude the USSR would take as they have tensions with the CCP but might prefer them to the KMT.  NK is very likely to support the CCP and could be a huge boost to their resources.  Would Taiwan or more importantly the US be willing to openly support the KMT and if so how far and how nasty could things get.  After all to the 1987 world the CCP is the legitimate, internationally recognised government of China and has come a good way from the insane mess Mao had created. - Which thinking about it if Mao is suddenly about again there could be a significant issue as to who's the head of the CCP?  The 1987 leaders, whoever is left as many would be lost with the territories are now from 1935 replacing them or Mao.

  However if markedly more of China was deemed as outside KMT control in 1935 which means 1987 China is much larger, especially the region around the Beijing region which would include much of the government superstructure they would be markedly stronger.

[Otto Kretschmer]

1950 PRC ISOT to 1937.

Does it defeat the Japanese more easily? The PLA of 1950 has more combat experience than the nationalist army of 1937(. It can also count on much more Soviet help.

[Deleted]

[will choose a better scenario]

[lordroel]

Dec 16, 2023 4:39:35 GMT @kapesq said:

[will choose a better scenario]

You do not need to post it if you have nothing to add in the thread.

[Otto Kretschmer]

2019 Poland ISOT to 1946.

Does Poland manage to halt the Soviets and free the rest of the Eastern Bloc?

[Deleted]

At 12:01AM Bonn time, as the day of Christmas Eve opens in 1988, West Germany (excl. West Berlin) arrives at the same moment on Christmas Eve, 1940. Everything that is in the Bonn Republic (excl. the airspace and all biological/chemical/nuclear weapons and those weapons' spares) comes along for the ride.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Dec 16, 2023 21:34:49 GMT @kapesq said:

At 12:01AM Bonn time, as the day of Christmas Eve opens in 1988, West Germany (excl. West Berlin) arrives at the same moment on Christmas Eve, 1940. Everything that is in the Bonn Republic (excl. the airspace and all biological/chemical/nuclear weapons and those weapons' spares) comes along for the ride.

Where is majority of Wehrmacht located at the time? I guess a lot of it is going to be overwritten by new Germany.

The new German government calls upon the remaining Wehrmacht troops to surrender... which they likely do after some time given cessation of supplies.

Germany then gives independence to France, Poland, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg... WW2 ends in 1940.