Denmark-Norway from 1750 ISOT to 54 AD

[Otto Kretschmer]

575

The ISOT is exactly 1 year of Nero's rule

It can easiily fend off any Roman attack and it's naval dominance is absolute. 

What should Denmark-Norway do? It's dominance in technology is now absolute yet tech innovations are slowly going to drip to Rome and technologically strengthened Rome is hardly going to tolerate another major power in Europe.

[575]

King Frederick 5 was a drunkard. The good thing is that his Ministers were quite capable and the Kingdom even if having lost the Swedish lands still comprised the Duchies Schleswig and Holstein as well as the County of Oldenburg. Iceland is part of the Empire as is the Faeroe Islands and southern Greenland. Further away are the two forts on the Guinea/Gold/Slave Coast, the West Indies three islands, Tranquebar and 3-4 more trading posts in Bengal and the Nicobar Islands.

The Navy and Asian Company maintained communications with the Overseas colonies.

The Army of Norway consisted of some 20-30,000 troops with a core of 2 Infantry Regiments, 2 Ski Battalions, Artillery and Fortress Troops with territorial Army of 3 Cavalry and 13 Infantry Regiments.

The Danish/Dutchies Army consisting of 11 Cavalry Regiments, the Guards Regiment raised in Norway(as any ruler of reputation would raise the Guard among a minority population), Guards Cavalry Regiment, 10 Infantry Regiments raised in Germany, 7 Militia Regiments which were increasing with a decrease of raised troops to save funds. Major Depots at Copenhagen and Rendsburg, Schleswig with Artillery and Engineers. Total troops 35,000.
County of Oldenburg would field one Infantry Regiment.

Danish-Norwegian Navy: about 20 main ships of 60-80 guns, 17 Frigates of 20-30 guns plus a number of smaller ships. Two-thirds of crews were Norwegians the other third Danish/Schlewig though 90% of Officers were Danish the last 10 Norwegians. The Navy had a high degree of readiness.

Denmark being the Agrarian part with the most advanced in the Duchies and Norway having the natural resources of timbers and metals would make the realm close to selvsufficient with the Colonies mainly supplying luxury items such as spices.

I don't really see Denmark-Norway having initially much interest in the Roman Empire though scholars would very much like to know more.
There is a German buffer of tribes in Netherlands and Western Germania between the Empires.
Of much more interest would be the ability to regain the Swedish lands without much opposition and in the run take the full Swedish Kattegat-Skagerrak coast to ensure communications with Norway.

The Roman slavebased economy will be of no problem to Denmark-Norway as West African slaves were imported to the Plantations in the West Indies isles.
A slave rebellion was repressed with French aid on St. John 1733 and another disclosed 1759 so they may present some problems.

Denmark-Norway could well have an interest in luxury goods in the Roman Empire such as paper. As pagans they would of course be regarded as savages but practical needs would dictate how to cooperate and not religious ones. Danes wasn't averse to take up service with the Tsar - Vitus Bering - so taking up Roman service may appeal to some.

Of course tech may drip down to the Romans but they usually had internal problems and unruly neigbours why else the Limes fortifications. Also remember Denmark-Norway have knowledge of the Roman Empire and its neigbours; with their Navy and Merchant ships they may contact the Parthians and others.
Though just as communications within Denmark-Norway are slow so are the Romans. Denmark-Norway have little problem in sailing round the Good Hope as communications were maintained with the tradingposts in India.
In India the Danish Tradeposts are now situated in the Satavahana Empire and in some other in Bangal so have to reorient themselves to the new situation. Problem of course being that they land in some territory which may effect conflict with the locals and even with more modern tech they may be swamped by numbers before some ships may reach them.

Danish-Norwegian merchants would be interested in building new tradingposts but resources are few.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Both Americas are ripe for Danish colonization.

Also Ireland and Britain are both places with favorable climatic conditions.

[stevep]

Feb 25, 2022 11:38:47 GMT 575 said:

King Frederick 5 was a drunkard. The good thing is that his Ministers were quite capable and the Kingdom even if having lost the Swedish lands still comprised the Duchies Schleswig and Holstein as well as the County of Oldenburg. Iceland is part of the Empire as is the Faeroe Islands and southern Greenland. Further away are the two forts on the Guinea/Gold/Slave Coast, the West Indies three islands, Tranquebar and 3-4 more trading posts in Bengal and the Nicobar Islands.

The Navy and Asian Company maintained communications with the Overseas colonies.

The Army of Norway consisted of some 20-30,000 troops with a core of 2 Infantry Regiments, 2 Ski Battalions, Artillery and Fortress Troops with territorial Army of 3 Cavalry and 13 Infantry Regiments.

The Danish/Dutchies Army consisting of 11 Cavalry Regiments, the Guards Regiment raised in Norway(as any ruler of reputation would raise the Guard among a minority population), Guards Cavalry Regiment, 10 Infantry Regiments raised in Germany, 7 Militia Regiments which were increasing with a decrease of raised troops to save funds. Major Depots at Copenhagen and Rendsburg, Schleswig with Artillery and Engineers. Total troops 35,000.
County of Oldenburg would field one Infantry Regiment.

Danish-Norwegian Navy: about 20 main ships of 60-80 guns, 17 Frigates of 20-30 guns plus a number of smaller ships. Two-thirds of crews were Norwegians the other third Danish/Schlewig though 90% of Officers were Danish the last 10 Norwegians. The Navy had a high degree of readiness.

Denmark being the Agrarian part with the most advanced in the Duchies and Norway having the natural resources of timbers and metals would make the realm close to selvsufficient with the Colonies mainly supplying luxury items such as spices.

I don't really see Denmark-Norway having initially much interest in the Roman Empire though scholars would very much like to know more.
There is a German buffer of tribes in Netherlands and Western Germania between the Empires.
Of much more interest would be the ability to regain the Swedish lands without much opposition and in the run take the full Swedish Kattegat-Skagerrak coast to ensure communications with Norway.

The Roman slavebased economy will be of no problem to Denmark-Norway as West African slaves were imported to the Plantations in the West Indies isles.
A slave rebellion was repressed with French aid on St. John 1733 and another disclosed 1759 so they may present some problems.

Denmark-Norway could well have an interest in luxury goods in the Roman Empire such as paper. As pagans they would of course be regarded as savages but practical needs would dictate how to cooperate and not religious ones. Danes wasn't averse to take up service with the Tsar - Vitus Bering - so taking up Roman service may appeal to some.

Of course tech may drip down to the Romans but they usually had internal problems and unruly neigbours why else the Limes fortifications. Also remember Denmark-Norway have knowledge of the Roman Empire and its neigbours; with their Navy and Merchant ships they may contact the Parthians and others.
Though just as communications within Denmark-Norway are slow so are the Romans. Denmark-Norway have little problem in sailing round the Good Hope as communications were maintained with the tradingposts in India.
In India the Danish Tradeposts are now situated in the Satavahana Empire and in some other in Bangal so have to reorient themselves to the new situation. Problem of course being that they land in some territory which may effect conflict with the locals and even with more modern tech they may be swamped by numbers before some ships may reach them.

Danish-Norwegian merchants would be interested in building new tradingposts but resources are few.

  Good summary.  I would say that Rome hasn't yet had great internal problems, other than under very bad emperors like Caligula and now Nero and is still fairly expansionist at times.  However it is totally outclassed by 18thC Denmark-Norway.  In the short term however its likely to have more issues with the local tribes who are likely to try their arms with the newcomers, especially since they will probably not look very militant.  They will get some nasty shocks of course when they meet muskets and artillery, both by land and sea but there could be some nasty incidents before most of the tribes realise a "don't f**k with those guys approach!!"  It might end up with some of them becoming satellites of Denmark, and gradually being absorbed.  Especially since Denmark is likely to have a much larger population, as well as better health conditions than the down-timers.

  Not sure what differences there would be with climate at this point.  Denmark had been coming to the end of the little ice age but not sure what the situation is like in the 54AD world, although suspect it might be a bit warmer. 

  The huge game changer in the medium and longer terms is the knowledge the Danes have of the wider world and the ability with their naval technology to reach it.  This includes the ability to replace the Dutch as the power settling the Cape and gaining direct access to the wealth of southern and eastern Asia, silk, spices etc.  To the west while the Aztecs and Incas do not yet exist their predecessors still have considerable wealth and to their north there is the fertile lands of eastern N America.  Also if they so choose at this point they could establish slave plantations on some of the Caribbean Is to produce items such as sugar and tobacco.

[575]

Feb 25, 2022 12:03:16 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Both Americas are ripe for Danish colonization.

Also Ireland and Britain are both places with favorable climatic conditions.

Americas are filled with peoples but of course different germs may do a lot of the job for settlers; of course exploration in this strange world will be undertaken at least when the Puerto Rico is bustling with peoples.

Britain will serve for conflict with the Romans and the Danes might not have it as primary objective but certainly down the road. Irelands another possible in time perhaps Norwegian traders will lead the way trying to re-establish Jarldom of Orkneys and Kingdom of Dublin!

[575]

Feb 25, 2022 13:05:17 GMT stevep said:

Feb 25, 2022 11:38:47 GMT 575 said:

King Frederick 5 was a drunkard. The good thing is that his Ministers were quite capable and the Kingdom even if having lost the Swedish lands still comprised the Duchies Schleswig and Holstein as well as the County of Oldenburg. Iceland is part of the Empire as is the Faeroe Islands and southern Greenland. Further away are the two forts on the Guinea/Gold/Slave Coast, the West Indies three islands, Tranquebar and 3-4 more trading posts in Bengal and the Nicobar Islands.

The Navy and Asian Company maintained communications with the Overseas colonies.

The Army of Norway consisted of some 20-30,000 troops with a core of 2 Infantry Regiments, 2 Ski Battalions, Artillery and Fortress Troops with territorial Army of 3 Cavalry and 13 Infantry Regiments.

The Danish/Dutchies Army consisting of 11 Cavalry Regiments, the Guards Regiment raised in Norway(as any ruler of reputation would raise the Guard among a minority population), Guards Cavalry Regiment, 10 Infantry Regiments raised in Germany, 7 Militia Regiments which were increasing with a decrease of raised troops to save funds. Major Depots at Copenhagen and Rendsburg, Schleswig with Artillery and Engineers. Total troops 35,000.
County of Oldenburg would field one Infantry Regiment.

Danish-Norwegian Navy: about 20 main ships of 60-80 guns, 17 Frigates of 20-30 guns plus a number of smaller ships. Two-thirds of crews were Norwegians the other third Danish/Schlewig though 90% of Officers were Danish the last 10 Norwegians. The Navy had a high degree of readiness.

Denmark being the Agrarian part with the most advanced in the Duchies and Norway having the natural resources of timbers and metals would make the realm close to selvsufficient with the Colonies mainly supplying luxury items such as spices.

I don't really see Denmark-Norway having initially much interest in the Roman Empire though scholars would very much like to know more.
There is a German buffer of tribes in Netherlands and Western Germania between the Empires.
Of much more interest would be the ability to regain the Swedish lands without much opposition and in the run take the full Swedish Kattegat-Skagerrak coast to ensure communications with Norway.

The Roman slavebased economy will be of no problem to Denmark-Norway as West African slaves were imported to the Plantations in the West Indies isles.
A slave rebellion was repressed with French aid on St. John 1733 and another disclosed 1759 so they may present some problems.

Denmark-Norway could well have an interest in luxury goods in the Roman Empire such as paper. As pagans they would of course be regarded as savages but practical needs would dictate how to cooperate and not religious ones. Danes wasn't averse to take up service with the Tsar - Vitus Bering - so taking up Roman service may appeal to some.

Of course tech may drip down to the Romans but they usually had internal problems and unruly neigbours why else the Limes fortifications. Also remember Denmark-Norway have knowledge of the Roman Empire and its neigbours; with their Navy and Merchant ships they may contact the Parthians and others.
Though just as communications within Denmark-Norway are slow so are the Romans. Denmark-Norway have little problem in sailing round the Good Hope as communications were maintained with the tradingposts in India.
In India the Danish Tradeposts are now situated in the Satavahana Empire and in some other in Bangal so have to reorient themselves to the new situation. Problem of course being that they land in some territory which may effect conflict with the locals and even with more modern tech they may be swamped by numbers before some ships may reach them.

Danish-Norwegian merchants would be interested in building new tradingposts but resources are few.

  Good summary.  I would say that Rome hasn't yet had great internal problems, other than under very bad emperors like Caligula and now Nero and is still fairly expansionist at times.  However it is totally outclassed by 18thC Denmark-Norway.  In the short term however its likely to have more issues with the local tribes who are likely to try their arms with the newcomers, especially since they will probably not look very militant.  They will get some nasty shocks of course when they meet muskets and artillery, both by land and sea but there could be some nasty incidents before most of the tribes realise a "don't f**k with those guys approach!!"  It might end up with some of them becoming satellites of Denmark, and gradually being absorbed.  Especially since Denmark is likely to have a much larger population, as well as better health conditions than the down-timers.

  Not sure what differences there would be with climate at this point.  Denmark had been coming to the end of the little ice age but not sure what the situation is like in the 54AD world, although suspect it might be a bit warmer. 

  The huge game changer in the medium and longer terms is the knowledge the Danes have of the wider world and the ability with their naval technology to reach it.  This includes the ability to replace the Dutch as the power settling the Cape and gaining direct access to the wealth of southern and eastern Asia, silk, spices etc.  To the west while the Aztecs and Incas do not yet exist their predecessors still have considerable wealth and to their north there is the fertile lands of eastern N America.  Also if they so choose at this point they could establish slave plantations on some of the Caribbean Is to produce items such as sugar and tobacco.

stevep;

Thanks; but Rome still remember Teutoburg Forest so probably no immediate danger from that part.

Nasty incidents with the locals - hey the Infantry as written are Landskneckts recruited in German lands! To our standards it will become VERY ugly. Remember the execution of Strueense and Bang. Decapitated, quartered and put on wheels. History shows that North German States didn't like the prospect of having to house his Danish-Norwegian Majesty's troops.

Climate should be Roman Optimum which have some influence on land - the Wadden Sea will be much lower because land is higher but the north of the country will lie lower; also sealevels will be different around the world. Might make for some farmers i North Jutland have to relocate south to new larger lands.

Generally the peasants and great landowners will be happy for better harvests and longer grazing period for the livestock.

Ah yes Cape Province will be settled at first as a waystation and probably build into something substantial.

Denmark already have claimed the Danish West Indies and running plantations with slavelabour.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Most of Magna Germania down south is forest. Danes can expand easily.

[stevep]

Feb 25, 2022 19:27:01 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Most of Magna Germania down south is forest. Danes can expand easily.

  Not necessarily easily.  They have a huge tech and manpower advantage over the locals but deep forest is a good place for guerilla activity and ambushes - e.g. as 575, mentioned the Teutoburg Forest.  Plus it would need an hell of a lot of work to clear and develop.  There are probably better lands to develop elsewhere with less effort.  Possibly even towards the eastern Baltics if that's easier to clear.

[575]

Feb 26, 2022 11:17:30 GMT stevep said:

Feb 25, 2022 19:27:01 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Most of Magna Germania down south is forest. Danes can expand easily.

  Not necessarily easily.  They have a huge tech and manpower advantage over the locals but deep forest is a good place for guerilla activity and ambushes - e.g. as 575 , mentioned the Teutoburg Forest.  Plus it would need an hell of a lot of work to clear and develop.  There are probably better lands to develop elsewhere with less effort.  Possibly even towards the eastern Baltics if that's easier to clear.

The areas immediately south of Holstein will be negotiable; Lüneburg and Mecklenburg being areas of interest of Denmarks since the Bronzeage. Also quite a number of Danish Ministers like the Bernstorfs were originally from Hanover so might like to regain the ancestral lands.

Quite some of Germania won't be as heavily forested all over as popular opinion have it. Much more land had been cleared than previously thought. Teutoburg is a barrier to the west and of course there is others but trade were done in the area so communications existed.

The Baltics may be fine for supplying ship timbers tar and rope as the RN used.

[stevep]

Feb 26, 2022 19:05:31 GMT 575 said:

Feb 26, 2022 11:17:30 GMT stevep said:

  Not necessarily easily.  They have a huge tech and manpower advantage over the locals but deep forest is a good place for guerilla activity and ambushes - e.g. as 575 , mentioned the Teutoburg Forest.  Plus it would need an hell of a lot of work to clear and develop.  There are probably better lands to develop elsewhere with less effort.  Possibly even towards the eastern Baltics if that's easier to clear.

The areas immediately south of Holstein will be negotiable; Lüneburg and Mecklenburg being areas of interest of Denmarks since the Bronzeage. Also quite a number of Danish Ministers like the Bernstorfs were originally from Hanover so might like to regain the ancestral lands.

Quite some of Germania won't be as heavily forested all over as popular opinion have it. Much more land had been cleared than previously thought. Teutoburg is a barrier to the west and of course there is others but trade were done in the area so communications existed.

The Baltics may be fine for supplying ship timbers tar and rope as the RN used.

  Interesting thanks.

[razor007]

Parthia is screwed. The Romans will acquire the technology and historical knowledge first. Combined with their numerical and resource advantages they would conquer the Persians then the Arabs to prevent Islam from existing.

The Roman Empire is much larger but also more stable as it is able to spread out its forces more thinly without risking barbarian invasions. Gunpowder weapons such as Muskets, Grenades and Cannons allow the Roman forts to slaughter several times the number of defenders.

Roman involvement plus the introduction of new military and non-military technologies changes the course of India drastically. The Caste system does not develop and professional armies are developed.

Han China will someday upgrade its military and conquer Central Asia to prevent the Mongols from being a threat. Korea, Japan and Indochina are annexed especially Japan because of the brutal Imjin War.

Aksum Ethiopia will grow larger but most of Africa would be conquered by the Romans

[stevep]

Mar 12, 2022 7:27:55 GMT razor007 said:

Parthia is screwed. The Romans will acquire the technology and historical knowledge first. Combined with their numerical and resource advantages they would conquer the Persians then the Arabs to prevent Islam from existing.

The Roman Empire is much larger but also more stable as it is able to spread out its forces more thinly without risking barbarian invasions. Gunpowder weapons such as Muskets, Grenades and Cannons allow the Roman forts to slaughter several times the number of defenders.

Roman involvement plus the introduction of new military and non-military technologies changes the course of India drastically. The Caste system does not develop and professional armies are developed.

Han China will someday upgrade its military and conquer Central Asia to prevent the Mongols from being a threat. Korea, Japan and Indochina are annexed especially Japan because of the brutal Imjin War.

Aksum Ethiopia will grow larger but most of Africa would be conquered by the Romans

  A lot of that is likely if:

a)  The Danes are willing to transfer such knowledge - although this could come from mercenary types looking for new careers.

b)  The Roman empire can safely incorporate such ideas without being thrown into chaos.  Although if it is you could see a successor state emerging from the following period of chaos that ends up 'reuniting' and expanding the empire.  Mind you this assumes that neither side ends up spreading fatal pandemics to the other.

c)  How the strange religion of the newcomers interacts with a still active 'pagan' world.  Either/both sides could be too arrogant to be willing to work effectively with the other.

[razor007]

Mar 13, 2022 19:23:31 GMT stevep said:

Mar 12, 2022 7:27:55 GMT razor007 said:

Parthia is screwed. The Romans will acquire the technology and historical knowledge first. Combined with their numerical and resource advantages they would conquer the Persians then the Arabs to prevent Islam from existing.

The Roman Empire is much larger but also more stable as it is able to spread out its forces more thinly without risking barbarian invasions. Gunpowder weapons such as Muskets, Grenades and Cannons allow the Roman forts to slaughter several times the number of defenders.

Roman involvement plus the introduction of new military and non-military technologies changes the course of India drastically. The Caste system does not develop and professional armies are developed.

Han China will someday upgrade its military and conquer Central Asia to prevent the Mongols from being a threat. Korea, Japan and Indochina are annexed especially Japan because of the brutal Imjin War.

Aksum Ethiopia will grow larger but most of Africa would be conquered by the Romans

  A lot of that is likely if:

a)  The Danes are willing to transfer such knowledge - although this could come from mercenary types looking for new careers.

b)  The Roman empire can safely incorporate such ideas without being thrown into chaos.  Although if it is you could see a successor state emerging from the following period of chaos that ends up 'reuniting' and expanding the empire.  Mind you this assumes that neither side ends up spreading fatal pandemics to the other.

c)  How the strange religion of the newcomers interacts with a still active 'pagan' world.  Either/both sides could be too arrogant to be willing to work effectively with the other.

1. There will be a few Uptimers that will try to save the Roman Empire and get rich doing so. Rome is willing to learn from outside sources as shown in the Punic Wars. (Carthage ships and Nubian cavalry)

2. Better farming tools, Printing Press, Paper and Gunpowder would be prioritized as they bring immediate benefits to Rome

3. Rome is fine getting Christian advisors. Just don't expect Roman Empire 2.0 to be Christian-majority this time around. Downtime Jews are screwed even more.

Roman Empire will last much longer and not fall the same way. Same with Aksum, India and China.

Denmark-Norway carves out an empire of its on in Europe