Japan and South Korea from 2021 ISOT to 1946

[Otto Kretschmer]

ISOT from January 1 2021 to January 1 1946.

All US and foreign personel in both stated moves back to their countries.

Given that ROK almost certainly intervenes in the Chinese Civil War, what happens to the Eastern Bloc?

The West has gained two (potentially three) VERY powerful allies with over 70 years of tech lead.

[razor007]

Ho Chin Minh still gets Vietnam's Independence

Worldwide population explodes. So Space Colonization is required ASAP.

The failure of MLK's Civil Rights Movement causes Black Extremism in the US

[gillan1220]

To the East Asian democracies become the most powerful in the region. 2021 ROK would demand to the U.S. and the USSR that it be allowed to keep the entire Peninsula. Washington and Moscow would be surprised seeing this powerful ROK and a seemingly powerful Japan that just rose from the ashes overnight.

This may lead to the ROK and Japan supporting the Nationalists in China against Mao Zedong.

[stevep]

   Two questions.

a)  Given that the US has just seen the battered country it spent nearly 4 hours defeating replaced by a massive new nation that looks a hell of a lot more powerful that the 1946 US will some of its leaders want to do something stupid, like re-occupy this new Japan? 

b)  When the two countries were brought along would it include non-natives from the future.  Especially but not only the US forces deployed in S Korea and some of Japan?  If so that could reduce the potential of something like a) above.

  Two issues

c)  Both countries are going to have serious problems with the loss of virtually all trade and exports other than the most basic raw materials, which would also raise questions of shipments and payments given their appeared pretty much from thin air.  There's going to be a lot of problems maintaining their economics for a while at least.

d)  Any S Korean desire for reunification will run into the issue that N Korea is currently under Soviet protection.  Coupled with the fact that the US - and the western powers generally - aren't really looking for another war here and things like the imposing of communist control in Czechoslovakia and the Berlin blockade haven't happened yet things could be very messy.  S Korea has the technology, although any equipment not produced locally, including sub-components will be a serious issue but a clash with Stalin would be a big and costly war for both sides.

[gillan1220]

Mar 18, 2022 14:33:42 GMT stevep said:

   Two questions.

a)  Given that the US has just seen the battered country it spent nearly 4 hours defeating replaced by a massive new nation that looks a hell of a lot more powerful that the 1946 US will some of its leaders want to do something stupid, like re-occupy this new Japan? 

b)  When the two countries were brought along would it include non-natives from the future.  Especially but not only the US forces deployed in S Korea and some of Japan?  If so that could reduce the potential of something like a) above.

  Two issues

c)  Both countries are going to have serious problems with the loss of virtually all trade and exports other than the most basic raw materials, which would also raise questions of shipments and payments given their appeared pretty much from thin air.  There's going to be a lot of problems maintaining their economics for a while at least.

d)  Any S Korean desire for reunification will run into the issue that N Korea is currently under Soviet protection.  Coupled with the fact that the US - and the western powers generally - aren't really looking for another war here and things like the imposing of communist control in Czechoslovakia and the Berlin blockade haven't happened yet things could be very messy.  S Korea has the technology, although any equipment not produced locally, including sub-components will be a serious issue but a clash with Stalin would be a big and costly war for both sides.

Those are going to be issues for South Korea and Japan. While they are rich in the 21st century, their sudden appearance in 1946 would also put a dent on their economy. I'm not sure if GPS and Internet will also be ISOTed with these countries.

a. The U.S. would not want to reoccupy this Japan since it's more powerful than the 1946 U.S. military. This Japan and South Korea suddenly has the most powerful navy in the world despite its size, along with a capable air force and army.

b. The OP has not stated if non-natives were brought. If they were, imagine 1946 U.S. military personnel react to seeing 2022 USFK and USFJ equipment.

Two issues
c. I mentioned about the economy. I heard that South Korea and Japan are dependent on export their products abroad, none of which would function in 1946. A Samsung or Playstation is simply too advanced for the post-war market.

d. In this case, South Korea and Japan can hurt the Soviet Union badly. F-15s, F-16s, F-2s, and F-35s could shoot down any aircraft while their navies could defeat the brown-water navy the USSR possessed. The problem comes once missiles and munitions run out.

[stevep]

Mar 18, 2022 15:32:16 GMT gillan1220 said:

Mar 18, 2022 14:33:42 GMT stevep said:

   Two questions.

a)  Given that the US has just seen the battered country it spent nearly 4 hours defeating replaced by a massive new nation that looks a hell of a lot more powerful that the 1946 US will some of its leaders want to do something stupid, like re-occupy this new Japan? 

b)  When the two countries were brought along would it include non-natives from the future.  Especially but not only the US forces deployed in S Korea and some of Japan?  If so that could reduce the potential of something like a) above.

  Two issues

c)  Both countries are going to have serious problems with the loss of virtually all trade and exports other than the most basic raw materials, which would also raise questions of shipments and payments given their appeared pretty much from thin air.  There's going to be a lot of problems maintaining their economics for a while at least.

d)  Any S Korean desire for reunification will run into the issue that N Korea is currently under Soviet protection.  Coupled with the fact that the US - and the western powers generally - aren't really looking for another war here and things like the imposing of communist control in Czechoslovakia and the Berlin blockade haven't happened yet things could be very messy.  S Korea has the technology, although any equipment not produced locally, including sub-components will be a serious issue but a clash with Stalin would be a big and costly war for both sides.

Those are going to be issues for South Korea and Japan. While they are rich in the 21st century, their sudden appearance in 1946 would also put a dent on their economy. I'm not sure if GPS and Internet will also be ISOTed with these countries.

a. The U.S. would not want to reoccupy this Japan since it's more powerful than the 1946 U.S. military. This Japan and South Korea suddenly has the most powerful navy in the world despite its size, along with a capable air force and army.

b. The OP has not stated if non-natives were brought. If they were, imagine 1946 U.S. military personnel react to seeing 2022 USFK and USFJ equipment.

Two issues
c. I mentioned about the economy. I heard that South Korea and Japan are dependent on export their products abroad, none of which would function in 1946. A Samsung or Playstation is simply too advanced for the post-war market.

d. In this case, South Korea and Japan can hurt the Soviet Union badly. F-15s, F-16s, F-2s, and F-35s could shoot down any aircraft while their navies could defeat the brown-water navy the USSR possessed. The problem comes once missiles and munitions run out.

  gillan1220,

a)  The reason I raised this was seeing it from the 1946 US point of view.  Less than a year ago they completed a very bitter war against Japan, after much savagely on both sides [but most violently on the Japanese] and largely razing the countries urban areas and infrastructure.  Now this has suddenly been replaced by some new Japan that looks totally different and their occupation forces have disappeared.  Its very easy to see, especially given 1946 attitudes some American figure, where in the Pacific or Washington deciding that 'those Nips are up to something again'.  They will get their asses handed to them if any combat occurs, which will further frustrate them and I suspect it would all be sorted out fairly quickly but could be messy and leave some bad feelings on both sides.

b)  Not just the 2021 equipment  but even more the social attitudes, especially on things like race and sex.  The 2021/22 guys - and it will be overwhelmingly guys - will have some adjusting to do.  They might end up settling in S Korea rather than home even.

c)  I can't see satellites coming along, other than Japanese ones so no GPS and most of their internet options would be limited as well.  Also given how much of the IC production is now in Taiwan, which didn't come along I wonder how they would handle that as well.  Or simply energy as 21st Japan probably consumes more energy than the rest of the 1946 world, especially in terms of oil and gas.  Don't know if any oil or gas fields in the affected areas but none I'm aware of.

d)  Fully agree.

[gillan1220]

Mar 19, 2022 15:50:55 GMT stevep said:

a)  The reason I raised this was seeing it from the 1946 US point of view.  Less than a year ago they completed a very bitter war against Japan, after much savagely on both sides [but most violently on the Japanese] and largely razing the countries urban areas and infrastructure.  Now this has suddenly been replaced by some new Japan that looks totally different and their occupation forces have disappeared.  Its very easy to see, especially given 1946 attitudes some American figure, where in the Pacific or Washington deciding that 'those Nips are up to something again'.  They will get their asses handed to them if any combat occurs, which will further frustrate them and I suspect it would all be sorted out fairly quickly but could be messy and leave some bad feelings on both sides.

This I agree. Imagine seeing a defeated Japan suddenly arise with megacities, a strong economy, and a capable military beyond the capacity of 1946 United States. Even if the U.S. tries to send B-29s to start bombing Japan once more, the JASDF could shoot these Superfortress bombers easily. Or those JGSDF Patriot missile batteries.

Mar 19, 2022 15:50:55 GMT stevep said:

b)  Not just the 2021 equipment  but even more the social attitudes, especially on things like race and sex.  The 2021/22 guys - and it will be overwhelmingly guys - will have some adjusting to do.  They might end up settling in S Korea rather than home even.

The post-war world of 1946 would be surprised to see what anime and feminine-looking K-pop idol bands are. That is the not the norm of 1946.

Mar 19, 2022 15:50:55 GMT stevep said:

c)  I can't see satellites coming along, other than Japanese ones so no GPS and most of their internet options would be limited as well.  Also given how much of the IC production is now in Taiwan, which didn't come along I wonder how they would handle that as well.  Or simply energy as 21st Japan probably consumes more energy than the rest of the 1946 world, especially in terms of oil and gas.  Don't know if any oil or gas fields in the affected areas but none I'm aware of.

This means that Patriots, AEGIS, fighter jets, and attack helicopters of both the ROK and Japan would not function right?

As for Taiwan in 1946, it was just a territory granted by the United Nations to be governed by the Republic of China until it could be agreed on what it could be. The retreat of the KMT to Taiwan in 1949 prevented this from happening.

On the other hand, here is some infographics about ORBAT and U.S. military pressence in both Japan and South Korea as of 2021:

Japan vs south korea military power comparison 2021



Source: Al-Jazeera

[raharris1973]

Mar 7, 2022 16:03:31 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

All US and foreign personel in both stated moves back to their countries.

The OP did state that non-natives do not come along, so there is no one to mediate between the Japanese and Koreans and westerners.

[raharris1973]

Mar 19, 2022 15:50:55 GMT stevep said:

a)  The reason I raised this was seeing it from the 1946 US point of view.  Less than a year ago they completed a very bitter war against Japan, after much savagely on both sides [but most violently on the Japanese] and largely razing the countries urban areas and infrastructure.  Now this has suddenly been replaced by some new Japan that looks totally different and their occupation forces have disappeared.  Its very easy to see, especially given 1946 attitudes some American figure, where in the Pacific or Washington deciding that 'those Nips are up to something again'.  They will get their asses handed to them if any combat occurs, which will further frustrate them and I suspect it would all be sorted out fairly quickly but could be messy and leave some bad feelings on both sides.

Exactly -

Japanese Self Defense Forces will be attuned to any incoming B-39 Silverplates and blow them out of the sky long before they get within bombing range of any Japanese cities.

Actually, when we are talking about ISOT'ing Japan, are we talking about ISOT'ing *all* Japanese sovereign territory and EEZs as of 2021? If so that means all of Okinawa and the Ryukyus and all of the Bonins including Iwo Jima, so those bases are unavailable for the US to try atomic approaches.


The Koreans I think can buy out/force out the Soviets from North Korea and after one or two reclaim attempts at most Stalin would give up on messing with the beehive.

Mar 16, 2022 17:34:39 GMT razor007 said:

Ho Chin Minh still gets Vietnam's Independence

Worldwide population explodes. So Space Colonization is required ASAP.

The failure of MLK's Civil Rights Movement causes Black Extremism in the US

Could you explain your chains of reasoning here, especially your for your second and third items?

[shadow007]

The Vietnamese are still fanatical in their fight for Independence. France isn't willing to pay the death toll to keep their colonies. The Uptimers might support the Viet Minh which would cause France to bail out earlier.

Best case scenario is that Ho Chin Minh lives longer and with better health. Longer he lives the less screwed Vietnam is.

The modern technology vastly increases the lifespan of 1946 Humanity. That technology only advances much further which eventually results in Humans living forever youthfully. The same modern tech allows the 1946 Humans to colonize space within a few decades to finally stop overpopulation.

Both NATO and Warsaw produce much less Nukes, especially the later as it bankrupted them for no gain, as they instead invest heavily in Space Colonization.

Black-Americans learn about their future from the Uptimers. (Tamir Rice along would INFURIATE THEM). Malcolm X gets the influence and the means (Bombs) to force the US to FULLY EQUALIZE Blacks, Hispanics and other Non-Whites.

The families of Bolsanaro, Ferdinand Marcos, Erdogan, Marianne Le Pen, Nixon, Reagan, Trump and others are walking dead men. Uptimers basically stain their families with their crimes against humanity. Monsanto, Sackler, Enron, Madof, Roger Ailes/Fox News, etc are heavily screwed as well.

Scandinavia becomes much more Secular and Irreligious. Considering it is helping them today the 1946 Scandinavians would adopt the shit out of it.

Religion gets #Spotlight, #Canceled and #MeToo. Catholic Church files for Bankruptcy and is Mass-Incarcerated by the 1950s.

Saudi Arabia is screwed as Modern technology allows Nations to rely much less on oil. Richard Dawkins' books become a hit with the Arab youth just like in Real Life.

US doesn't rely as much on Highways and Cars. LA doesn't become a congested, pisshole. (Always dreaded driving to or through LA)

Heavy Metal, Synth and Pop become popular in the US during the 1950s. Also Video Games.

Basically Expanse in a nutshell. Earth is NATO, Mars is the Warsaw Pact while the poor Outer Space Colonies are the Third World Nations.