lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 11, 2022 8:42:15 GMT
So we know what the Audacious-class aircraft carrier (HMS Ark Royal R09) had as final air wing 1970-1978:
809 NAS, Buccaneer S2, number of planes (14), role (Strike).
892 NAS, Phantom FG1, number of planes (12), role (Fleet Air Defence).
849B NAS, Gannet AEW3, number of planes (4), role (Airborne Early Warning).
Gannet COD4, number of planes (1), role (Carrier On Board Delivery).
824 NAS, Sea King HAS2, number of planes (7), role (Anti-Submarine Warfare).
Ship's Flight, Wessex HAS1 , number of planes (2), role (Search and Rescue).
But what would be the air wing for a CVA 01 type (Queen Elizabeth) in 1975.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Mar 11, 2022 18:15:14 GMT
So we know what the Audacious-class aircraft carrier (HMS Ark Royal R09) had as final air wing 1970-1978: 809 NAS, Buccaneer S2, number of planes (14), role (Strike). 892 NAS, Phantom FG1, number of planes (12), role (Fleet Air Defence). 849B NAS, Gannet AEW3, number of planes (4), role (Airborne Early Warning). Gannet COD4, number of planes (1), role (Carrier On Board Delivery). 824 NAS, Sea King HAS2, number of planes (7), role (Anti-Submarine Warfare). Ship's Flight, Wessex HAS1 , number of planes (2), role (Search and Rescue). But what would be the air wing for a CVA 01 type (Queen Elizabeth) in 1975. OK I'll bite.
CVA01: is 64,000 tons Std Displacement Audacious-class was 43,060 tons Length 920 ft 804 ft Beam 240 ft overall 171 ft Speed 32 Kts 31.5 kts Range 10,000 nautical miles 7,000 nautical miles
Crew 679 2,250
First, Liz (CVA01) is a materially bigger ship. That is a very good thing for a CV. Second, the greatly reduced crew means these ships total lifetime cost will be much, much cheaper. Third Liz will have to loose her sky jump and install 3 Cats. Those cats have to be EMP, she's a gas turbine ship.
I think the makeup of Air Group would not change much. Every aircraft looks more than capable of doing it's job in the 1970s. The one exception I would make was to substitute the newly operational (1970) 4 E-2Cs for the venerable Gannett AEW3.
My notional CVAW would be:
809 NAS, Buccaneer S2, number of planes (24), role (Strike).
892 NAS, Phantom FG1, number of planes (24), role (Fleet Air Defence/Strike).
849B NAS, Hawkeye E-2C, number of planes (4), role (Airborne Early Warning).
Gannet COD4, number of planes (1), role (Carrier On Board Delivery).
824 NAS, Sea King HAS2, number of planes (10), role (Anti-Submarine Warfare).
Ship's Flight, Wessex HAS1 , number of planes (2), role (Search and Rescue).
Well that's about it. The cat substitution with 1970 tech seems like a big problem to me.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 11, 2022 20:16:48 GMT
So we know what the Audacious-class aircraft carrier (HMS Ark Royal R09) had as final air wing 1970-1978: 809 NAS, Buccaneer S2, number of planes (14), role (Strike). 892 NAS, Phantom FG1, number of planes (12), role (Fleet Air Defence). 849B NAS, Gannet AEW3, number of planes (4), role (Airborne Early Warning). Gannet COD4, number of planes (1), role (Carrier On Board Delivery). 824 NAS, Sea King HAS2, number of planes (7), role (Anti-Submarine Warfare). Ship's Flight, Wessex HAS1 , number of planes (2), role (Search and Rescue). But what would be the air wing for a CVA 01 type (Queen Elizabeth) in 1975. OK I'll bite.
CVA01: is 64,000 tons Std Displacement Audacious-class was 43,060 tons Length 920 ft 804 ft Beam 240 ft overall 171 ft Speed 32 Kts 31.5 kts Range 10,000 nautical miles 7,000 nautical miles
Crew 679 2,250
First, Liz (CVA01) is a materially bigger ship. That is a very good thing for a CV. Second, the greatly reduced crew means these ships total lifetime cost will be much, much cheaper. Third Liz will have to loose her sky jump and install 3 Cats. Those cats have to be EMP, she's a gas turbine ship.
I think the makeup of Air Group would not change much. Every aircraft looks more than capable of doing it's job in the 1970s. The one exception I would make was to substitute the newly operational (1970) 4 E-2Cs for the venerable Gannett AEW3.
My notional CVAW would be:
809 NAS, Buccaneer S2, number of planes (24), role (Strike).
892 NAS, Phantom FG1, number of planes (24), role (Fleet Air Defence/Strike).
849B NAS, Hawkeye E-2C, number of planes (4), role (Airborne Early Warning).
Gannet COD4, number of planes (1), role (Carrier On Board Delivery).
824 NAS, Sea King HAS2, number of planes (10), role (Anti-Submarine Warfare).
Ship's Flight, Wessex HAS1 , number of planes (2), role (Search and Rescue).
Well that's about it. The cat substitution with 1970 tech seems like a big problem to me.
Nice Senior Chief. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Mar 12, 2022 15:33:29 GMT
I have been researching 1970 catapults and the answer to giving Liz this essential capability did not look good.
I was hoping a "Donkey" steam Boiler would do the job. Then I took a look at the type of steam that was required for the cats: 450 psi steam, 480 Degree F water 4,500 gallons "fill water" for each shot. We are talking three cats.
So I dug back into my ESWS quals (which had a pretty hefty "Engineering" section) aboard a steam powered Knox frigate of the 70's. We had two Type D supercharged 1,200-psi Combustion Engineering or Babcock & Wilcox boilers. I think this would be a good choice to power the cats. It fits into a 4,000 ton frigate and does not have to be linked to a drive train, so fitting it into Liz's hull should not be a problem. Also, RN engineers of that period would require little training. Can't say the same for the Gas turbines.
It does have some real down sides.
1. It is another major engineering plant to man and maintain.
2. It does not run on Gas turbine fuel so additional "Bunker Storage" must be provided.
3. It increases the size of the "Black Gang".
4. Since flight ops, these days, are 24/7 at least one of the boilers has to be "On Line" continuously and that means a lot of fuel.
But it is doable with '70 technology.
I'd greatly appreciate other folks thoughts.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 12, 2022 15:36:31 GMT
I'd greatly appreciate other folks thoughts. Maybe you makeup of the Air Group is so spot on Senior Chief, they do not know how to counter it. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Mar 12, 2022 15:58:19 GMT
I'd greatly appreciate other folks thoughts. Maybe you makeup of the Air Group is so spot on Senior Chief, they do not know how to counter it. Lordroel, that takes all the fun out of it. One sided discussions are very boring unless you are fascinated by the "Brilliance of your own thoughts". I am well aware I am not the brightest bulb on tree, especially when up against our ATL and history masters here.
I once told you I come here as a refuge from the mania, hysteria and depression of other boards.
I also come here to be educated and entertained.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 12, 2022 16:02:26 GMT
Maybe you makeup of the Air Group is so spot on Senior Chief, they do not know how to counter it. Lordroel, that takes all the fun out of it. One sided discussions are very boring unless you are fascinated by the "Brilliance of your own thoughts". I am well aware I am not the brightest bulb on tree, especially when up against our ATL and history masters here.
I once told you I come here as a refuge from the mania, hysteria and depression of other boards.
I also come here to be educated and entertained. Well i am going to use the power i was given to me to call in some people. stevep and simon darkshade any responds. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 12, 2022 17:44:23 GMT
Lordroel, that takes all the fun out of it. One sided discussions are very boring unless you are fascinated by the "Brilliance of your own thoughts". I am well aware I am not the brightest bulb on tree, especially when up against our ATL and history masters here.
I once told you I come here as a refuge from the mania, hysteria and depression of other boards.
I also come here to be educated and entertained.  Well i am going to use the power i was given to me to call in some people. stevep and simon darkshade any responds.
I'm out of my tech level here. Very much a theorist rather than an expert.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 12, 2022 17:59:19 GMT
Well i am going to use the power i was given to me to call in some people. stevep and simon darkshade any responds. I'm out of my tech level here. Very much a theorist rather than an expert.
Okay, no problem. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 12, 2022 18:02:14 GMT
I have been researching 1970 catapults and the answer to giving Liz this essential capability did not look good.
I was hoping a "Donkey" steam Boiler would do the job. Then I took a look at the type of steam that was required for the cats: 450 psi steam, 480 Degree F water 4,500 gallons "fill water" for each shot. We are talking three cats.
So I dug back into my ESWS quals (which had a pretty hefty "Engineering" section) aboard a steam powered Knox frigate of the 70's. We had two Type D supercharged 1,200-psi Combustion Engineering or Babcock & Wilcox boilers. I think this would be a good choice to power the cats. It fits into a 4,000 ton frigate and does not have to be linked to a drive train, so fitting it into Liz's hull should not be a problem. Also, RN engineers of that period would require little training. Can't say the same for the Gas turbines.
It does have some real down sides.
1. It is another major engineering plant to man and maintain.
2. It does not run on Gas turbine fuel so additional "Bunker Storage" must be provided.
3. It increases the size of the "Black Gang".
4. Since flight ops, these days, are 24/7 at least one of the boilers has to be "On Line" continuously and that means a lot of fuel.
But it is doable with '70 technology.
I'd greatly appreciate other folks thoughts. I'll bite. What is the maintenance service load in man hours and estimated down time on the donkey steam generator plant supposed to be? What is the shuttle cock run length and estimated tons throw? How many manning slots to maintain and operate this secondary engineering division? How much distilled water bunkerage does it require? Will it throw shuttlecocks off the ramp or use a catch brake? How much volume does this donkey steam generator plant take from the nose of the aircraft carrier? I presume we want short piping length. What is the estimated failure rate in throws? 1 in 50? |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Mar 12, 2022 19:10:17 GMT
miletus12 all good questions, I can give you ball park figures on some, others I will have to research. Remember I am an OS not a BT. 
Ok C-13 catapult (used aboard Kitty Hawk class which meets the '70's time frame.)
shuttle cock run length 250 ft.
estimated tons throw 78,000
Will it throw shuttlecocks off the ramp No.
US CVs of the '70s used the Van Velm Bridle Arresters or horns.
IMO, this does the same thing as the "catch brake"
The failure rate for steam cat shots are very, very rare now.
I have to research what it was like in the '70s.
Got to scoot. I'll get back to you later.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 13, 2022 0:22:02 GMT
CVA01: is 64,000 tons Std Displacement Audacious-class was 43,060 tons Length 920 ft 804 ft Beam 240 ft overall 171 ft Speed 32 Kts 31.5 kts Range 10,000 nautical miles 7,000 nautical miles
Crew 679 2,250
I was thinking about this description. But what would be the air wing for a CVA 01 type (Queen Elizabeth) in 1975. The air group would be subdivided into squadrons of 4-12 aircraft each by type / role / mission. Using the criteria of the time, this would be fighter / attack / interceptor types and bomber / recon / antiship types. Administratively the ancillary squadrons would be 2 each subunits with the fixed wing COD aircraft mated to the AEW birds (5 birds) and the ASW and SAR helos lumped (2-5 each) together for maintenance and support reasons. Third Liz will have to loose her sky jump and install 3 Cats. Those cats have to be EMP, she's a gas turbine ship. A linear induction rail driven motor or EMAL is a bit out of reach for the 1970s. Sheave drum or friction cable pulley is too unreliable and weak, as is high speed hydraulic ram piston. That leaves the steam catapult. The C-17 catapult was a 250 foot ~ 70 meter shuttlecock track. It used a bridle catch and brake catch combination called a "horn". Later aircraft carriers dispensed with the bridle catch since the shuttlecock attacked directly to the nose wheel in post 1980 naval aircraft. Now see illustration.  The volume requirement for the tracks is small. The distilled water reservoir and the boilers and condenser circuit are also smaller than one supposes. Overall; it may take up about 1/4 of the bow void or 100 meters long by 3 meters wide by 3 meters deep and with an engineering space of 20 by 3 by 30 meters below the bow tracks. Engineering department for a donkey steam generator and condenser loop establishment can be as few as 50 personnel. More likely closer to 100 men. I would have three steam generators in the setup. One on hot standby in case the one assigned fails to deliver static pressure before the throw. The other would be on cold standby in case of mechanical casualty to the two primaries. I cannot begin to guess where or how a 700 man crew could operate an aircraft carrier. Just damage control minimums requires 500 men. A 50 aircraft air wing would require an air department of at least 500 men. Admin support and actual ship crew for the modern Queen Elizabeths is about 679 crew but that does not include her aviation department. Rough rule of thumb is ten people per aircraft embarked. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 13, 2022 2:30:02 GMT
Same array of squadrons, just with 18 aircraft each for the fighters and strike planes. I'm unsure as to the AEW set up, but probably Gannets for the economy.
This is not a hidden or mysterious bit of knowledge, being around on Wiki and in Conways and a lot of other reference works.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Mar 13, 2022 4:17:09 GMT
Same array of squadrons, just with 18 aircraft each for the fighters and strike planes. I'm unsure as to the AEW set up, but probably Gannets for the economy. This is not a hidden or mysterious bit of knowledge, being around on Wiki and in Conways and a lot of other reference works. My Conway is not to hand. I think a four-squadron unit set of 12 each, 2 of fighters and 2 of bombers for a 50-58 plane and helicopter capacity aircraft carrier makes flexible use sense. The helicopters and ancillary aircraft take up odd leftover aircraft handling volume and missions, such as AEWCC, ASW and SAR and CODL. The aircraft carrier cannot hold more due to hardstand and hanger space limitations. |
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on May 18, 2023 14:36:39 GMT
estimated tons throw 78,000
I think you mean lbs there, Senior, but that kind of power puts a potential upgrade to F-14s for Fleet defense into the picture. MTO was 74,350 lbs... Regards, |
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