WI: Thaelmann doesn't spoil in 1925?

[melanie]

it's widely accepted that, had the KPD's Ernst Thaelmann not stood in the 1925 Weimar presidential election, the Centre Party's Wilhelm Marx would have defeated Hindenburg and become President.







While the easy response would be "well, this just means the Third Reich starts a few months early with President Hitler", i am interested in your thoughts as to possible outcomes should Marx secure re-election in 1932?

[575]

It really depends upon how he manages to secure re-election by 1932 - doesn't it???

Measures will have to be taken to secure that reelection but which. I don't expect an easy stroll through 1929-30 but you must have given the situation some thought to arrive at your question. I tried adressing this in my "A Window of Oppertunity 1905" following some discussion on the financial situation in Germany and Europe as such in said period.

Any disclosure of how you expect Marx to survive a re-election would be much interesting - just posing the question is too easy. And in the end you might end up answering the question yourself

[melanie]

I'm a civilian not a professional historian. Psephos (http://psephos.adam-carr.net) stated some years ago when writing on Wikipedia that he did not think that a President Marx would have appointed Hitler Chancellor.

[575]

Mar 12, 2022 17:27:30 GMT melanie said:

I'm a civilian not a professional historian. Psephos (http://psephos.adam-carr.net) stated some years ago when writing on Wikipedia that he did not think that a President Marx would have appointed Hitler Chancellor.

Nor am I a historian - just an interested amateur.

Nor do I think Marx would appoint Hitler though at the moment I'm unsure what would have happened. I am convinced as I wrote in the TL that if Thaelmann had supported Marx that the Communists might have voted for Marx - if only due to the name.

That would have meant a Socialdemocratic led Government prior to the Wall Street crash. The Government formed would be by somebody other than Brüning well possible some Socialdemocratic leader but I'm uncertain if that would be allowed ruling by decree if the idea was to keep Hitler out of politics. I don't know if it would be enough to keep Hitler out by 1932/3; the Army may support a Nazi coup mainly if the economic recession isn't stopped or at least slowed down. Government would need something positive to stay in.

[raharris1973]

Mar 12, 2022 20:48:57 GMT 575 said:

Mar 12, 2022 17:27:30 GMT melanie said:

I'm a civilian not a professional historian. Psephos (http://psephos.adam-carr.net) stated some years ago when writing on Wikipedia that he did not think that a President Marx would have appointed Hitler Chancellor.

Nor am I a historian - just an interested amateur.

Nor do I think Marx would appoint Hitler though at the moment I'm unsure what would have happened. I am convinced as I wrote in the TL that if Thaelmann had supported Marx that the Communists might have voted for Marx - if only due to the name.

That would have meant a Socialdemocratic led Government prior to the Wall Street crash. The Government formed would be by somebody other than Brüning well possible some Socialdemocratic leader but I'm uncertain if that would be allowed ruling by decree if the idea was to keep Hitler out of politics. I don't know if it would be enough to keep Hitler out by 1932/3; the Army may support a Nazi coup mainly if the economic recession isn't stopped or at least slowed down. Government would need something positive to stay in.

Not Social Democratic - Catholic Centre Party.  Really a moderate conservative, center-right group.

[575]

Apr 24, 2022 3:15:20 GMT raharris1973 said:

Mar 12, 2022 20:48:57 GMT 575 said:

Nor am I a historian - just an interested amateur.

Nor do I think Marx would appoint Hitler though at the moment I'm unsure what would have happened. I am convinced as I wrote in the TL that if Thaelmann had supported Marx that the Communists might have voted for Marx - if only due to the name.

That would have meant a Socialdemocratic led Government prior to the Wall Street crash. The Government formed would be by somebody other than Brüning well possible some Socialdemocratic leader but I'm uncertain if that would be allowed ruling by decree if the idea was to keep Hitler out of politics. I don't know if it would be enough to keep Hitler out by 1932/3; the Army may support a Nazi coup mainly if the economic recession isn't stopped or at least slowed down. Government would need something positive to stay in.

Not Social Democratic - Catholic Centre Party.  Really a moderate conservative, center-right group.

Whoops my bad - correct.

[michelvan]

The Weimar Republic politic was a mess

I have my doubts if Ernst Thaelmann would have be so wise to step down in 1925, to get Wilhelm Marx as head of State
After all Thaelmann was communist who fight the System, just like a Austrian who publish a book called "Mein Kampf" in same year.

Would have Wilhelm Marx be better choice as Reich President ?
Yes, he manage to be chancellor for three years, what is miracle for Weimar Republic politics !
And manage to solve several crisis in Weimar Republic.

But two issues ended Wilhelm Marx carrier in Politic
Generaloberst Hans von Seeckt had made from army Reichwehr "a State inside of the State" (this would be helpful for a Austrian in 1933)
Marx had to dismiss von Seeckt, what let to bad blood under right and monarchist in Reich
Another issue was that social democrat Philipp Scheidemann unveil that Reichswehr were in cooperation with Red Army in USSR.
Marx lost his support under Right wings in Reichtag

[melanie]

Anyone who endures what he did for eleven years under Nazi imprisonment deserves respect but it does not change that Ernst Thaelmann bears a huge share of the responsibility for Hitler coming to power.

[michelvan]

Apr 25, 2022 7:11:27 GMT melanie said:

but it does not change that Ernst Thaelmann bears a huge share of the responsibility for Hitler coming to power.

For those who not understand
Do series of wrong decision under Thaelmann and Walter Ulbrich (and Stalin)
The German Communist lost there reputation
Allot disappointed Communist left the Party and join a organisation that offers Job, food and camaraderie...

...In the Sturm Abteilung of NSDAP !

[Max Sinister]

If you want to make a TL where Marx becomes president, you should rather get the BVP to vote for him.

Their decision to support Hindenburg (Protestant Prussian monarchist) over Marx (Catholic Democrat) doesn't make any sense. Did Held (BVP head) hate Marx? All just a question of ego? Recently I read somewhere that the most competent democratic politicians of Weimar, Rathenau and Stresemann, didn't like each other very much, to the republic's detriment.

But Commies voting for Marx? Doesn't make sense, despite of the name. Marx was from the right wing of the Center party, and the Commies wasn't into "supporting the lesser evil". They'd rather claim that Social Democrats were worse than Nazis, FFS. Even in post-war Germany, some Commies around 1968 spread the message "vote CSU, they'll make things worse, thus ripe for revolution!"