Alternate 1066 - what kept Sven Estridsen away?

[575]

Had a go through earlier threads and Alternate 1066 caught my attention - I thought that the obvious pretender to go to England once Harold had been defeated at Stamford Bridge and possible invested at York would be Sven Estridsen King of Denmark; why didn't he send off an expedition to take advantage of the situation till 1069?

The problem seems to have been the Wends anti-Christian rebellion of 1066 where their King Gotskalk had been killed on 7. June 1066. Gotskalk being an ally of Denmarks was married to Svens daughter Sigrid. As her husband had been killed she took her son Henrik along fleeing for her fathers Kingdom.

There is no sources I could find on Danish support to the Punitive Expedition into Wends lands 1067-8 led by Bishop Burchard of Halberstadt mentioned here though that also mention an internal war during 1056 between 2 x 2 Wends tribes where one party called on the Saxons, Danes and Obodrites for help - which was sent.

So Sven may well have been prohibited in sending his ships to England 1066 surely 1069 shows he had all intention.

Without a Wends rebellion against his ally Sven Estridsen may well send off the Danish Army during late September 1066 post Stamford Bridge to reap the benefits!

Edit: Found this home page which claims that Harold Godwinsons children went to Denmark to get King Sven aid them. Also state that Sven viewed himself a successor to the English Throne.

[halferking]

Sweyn II of Denmark claim to the Throne of England comes, via his mother Estrid, from his grandfather Sweyn Forkbeard, who was declared King of all England in 1013.

Sweyn Forkbeard died in 1014 and the Throne of England past to his son Cnute the Great and in turn it past to Harold I Harefoot, son of the union between Cnute and Ælfgifu of Northampton. Harold I didn’t last long and he died 1040. He was succeeded by his half-brother Harthacnut or Cnute III, son of Cnute and Emma of Normandy. Harthacnut also didn’t last long, and he died in 1042 and the Throne allegedly past to Edward the Confessor, who was the half-brother of Harthacnut – his mother was Emma of Normandy, and his father was Æthelred the Unready who had been King of England before Sweyn Forkbeard invaded.
The line of succession became chaotic following the death of Edward the Confessor for there were at least four men who tried to enforce their claim to England. Harold II Godwinson, Edgar Atheling, William Duke of Normandy and Harald Hardrada, King of Norway. Each had claims to varying degrees.

Harold II, Edward’s brother-in-law, claimed that Edward, on his deathbed, promised the throne to him. He enjoyed the support of the Witan

William, Duke of Normandy was a distant cousin of Edward through Edward’s mother Emma. He claims that Edward had promised the throne to him, and that Harold II had sworn his allegiance to William and acknowledge that he was the rightful heir. William enjoyed the support of Emperor Henry IV and the Pope.

Harold Hardrada was a chancer, his claim stemmed from an agreement between Magnus I of Norway and Harthacnut. The agreement stated that whoever died first without an heir the survivor would inherit. The agreement pertained to the Crown of Denmark, but Harold who had tried unsuccessfully to claim Denmark turned his attention to England, which although outside the scope of the deal Harold nonetheless claimed that he was the successor of Harthacnut and tried it take the throne.

Edgar Atheling had the strongest blood-tie to Edward and was the last of the Royal House of Wessex.

Sweyn II inherited Denmark from Magnus and held it despite Harold Hardrada’s attempt to take the Kingdom. When Hardrada was killed Sweyn II looked to England and joined forces with Edgar Atheling, but William paid Sweyn to effectively betray Edgar. Sweyn II tried again in 1074/75 but these failed.

Sweyn took York before returning to Denmark. If Sweyn had not taken the money and done a runner it could be that the alliance may have dislodged William... Edgar probably wouldn't survive.

[575]

Interestingly the father of Harold II Godwinson earl Godwin was married to the sister of Svens father Ulf Thorgilson, Gytha.

From my new readings it seems Sven didn't have an interest himself in going to England and didn't do so himself 1069 but sent off his brother Asbjorn/Esben and sons Harold and Cnut who takes York but are bought off by William when he arrive. Cnut tries going to York 1074/5 fails again. Cnut actually tries a third time 1085/6 but the fleet didn't get off Denmark due to some troubles at the border with HRE and 1086 the angry troops rebels and kills Cnut.
Sven wanted to make for a smooth transition of power in Denmark when would pass on but had too many sons and tried having them establish their own kingdoms abroad (of Denmark) which ultimately failed and led to a very long period of infighting of the many sons and their issue not really ending till 1157.

This new view of course make for quite another perspective on Svens reign though it seems he should have given his sons some more support in their endeavours. Then is also claims that Sven was trained for a Clerical position - if the Cnuts North Sea Empire had survived his death Sven might have made some powerfull Bishop/Archbishop though he would have sorely missed his Harem - though of course so early in Northern Europe he may have found ways.

[halferking]

May 21, 2022 8:37:52 GMT 575 said:

Interestingly the father of Harold II Godwinson earl Godwin was married to the sister of Svens father Ulf Thorgilson, Gytha.

From my new readings it seems Sven didn't have an interest himself in going to England and didn't do so himself 1069 but sent off his brother Asbjorn/Esben and sons Harold and Cnut who takes York but are bought off by William when he arrive. Cnut tries going to York 1074/5 fails again. Cnut actually tries a third time 1085/6 but the fleet didn't get off Denmark due to some troubles at the border with HRE and 1086 the angry troops rebels and kills Cnut.
Sven wanted to make for a smooth transition of power in Denmark when would pass on but had too many sons and tried having them establish their own kingdoms abroad (of Denmark) which ultimately failed and led to a very long period of infighting of the many sons and their issue not really ending till 1157.

This new view of course make for quite another perspective on Svens reign though it seems he should have given his sons some more support in their endeavours. Then is also claims that Sven was trained for a Clerical position - if the Cnuts North Sea Empire had survived his death Sven might have made some powerfull Bishop/Archbishop though he would have sorely missed his Harem - though of course so early in Northern Europe he may have found ways.

From what I understand Ulf Thorgilson was married to Cnute's sister Estrid Svensdatter and they had Sweyn II. Ulf's sister Gytha was then married off, by Cnute, to Earl Godwine, arguably the most powerful man in England, and they had Harold Godwinson and Edith of Wessex. Edith was then married off to Edward the Confessor.

Magnus and Harthacnute entered into an agreement that stated the survivor would inherit Norway and Denmark. Hathacnute died and Magnus got the inheritance. Magnus appointed Sweyn Estridsen (Sweyn II Estridsen) as Viceroy in Denmark. Whilst Magnus was pre-occupied with the Wends Sweyn was proclaimed King of Denmark. Naturally this did not go over well with Magnus or his son Harald III Hardrada who tried to take Denmark, but it turns out his endeavours where more about plundering than seizing control. Sweyn II and Harald III Hardrada agreed to respect each others sovereignty in their respective lands and this is when Harald III turns his attention towards England. He is killed in 1066 in the invasion of England.

Emboldened by Harald's death Sweyn II ordered the invasion of England in 1069 to aid Edgar Atheling and his Anglo-Saxon rebellion against William I. This campaign was very successful and may have been sufficient to overthrow William I in favour of Edgar Atheling (ultimately in favour of Sweyn II) were it not for the agreement between William and Sweyn II in 1070. Sweyn II returns to Denmark and seeks to free the Danish Christian Church from the Archbishop of Bremen.

What if Sweyn II had pressed home his advantage and dislodged William from the Throne of England he would in all likelihood rule over England and Denmark as the 'power behind the throne' with Edgar a mere titular ruler.

[575]

May 21, 2022 11:21:03 GMT halferking said:

May 21, 2022 8:37:52 GMT 575 said:

Interestingly the father of Harold II Godwinson earl Godwin was married to the sister of Svens father Ulf Thorgilson, Gytha.

From my new readings it seems Sven didn't have an interest himself in going to England and didn't do so himself 1069 but sent off his brother Asbjorn/Esben and sons Harold and Cnut who takes York but are bought off by William when he arrive. Cnut tries going to York 1074/5 fails again. Cnut actually tries a third time 1085/6 but the fleet didn't get off Denmark due to some troubles at the border with HRE and 1086 the angry troops rebels and kills Cnut.
Sven wanted to make for a smooth transition of power in Denmark when would pass on but had too many sons and tried having them establish their own kingdoms abroad (of Denmark) which ultimately failed and led to a very long period of infighting of the many sons and their issue not really ending till 1157.

This new view of course make for quite another perspective on Svens reign though it seems he should have given his sons some more support in their endeavours. Then is also claims that Sven was trained for a Clerical position - if the Cnuts North Sea Empire had survived his death Sven might have made some powerfull Bishop/Archbishop though he would have sorely missed his Harem - though of course so early in Northern Europe he may have found ways.

From what I understand Ulf Thorgilson was married to Cnute's sister Estrid Svensdatter and they had Sweyn II. Ulf's sister Gytha was then married off, by Cnute, to Earl Godwine, arguably the most powerful man in England, and they had Harold Godwinson and Edith of Wessex. Edith was then married off to Edward the Confessor.

Magnus and Harthacnute entered into an agreement that stated the survivor would inherit Norway and Denmark. Hathacnute died and Magnus got the inheritance. Magnus appointed Sweyn Estridsen (Sweyn II Estridsen) as Viceroy in Denmark. Whilst Magnus was pre-occupied with the Wends Sweyn was proclaimed King of Denmark. Naturally this did not go over well with Magnus or his son Harald III Hardrada who tried to take Denmark, but it turns out his endeavours where more about plundering than seizing control. Sweyn II and Harald III Hardrada agreed to respect each others sovereignty in their respective lands and this is when Harald III turns his attention towards England. He is killed in 1066 in the invasion of England.

Emboldened by Harald's death Sweyn II ordered the invasion of England in 1069 to aid Edgar Atheling and his Anglo-Saxon rebellion against William I. This campaign was very successful and may have been sufficient to overthrow William I in favour of Edgar Atheling (ultimately in favour of Sweyn II) were it not for the agreement between William and Sweyn II in 1070. Sweyn II returns to Denmark and seeks to free the Danish Christian Church from the Archbishop of Bremen.

What if Sweyn II had pressed home his advantage and dislodged William from the Throne of England he would in all likelihood rule over England and Denmark as the 'power behind the throne' with Edgar a mere titular ruler.

Yes Sven Estridson is Sven II - no disagreement there.

There was no agreement of inheritance - is a clerical construct. Magnus went to HRE got Imperial and Church approval of his getting power in Denmark in the interregnum following Harthcnute's death. Sven just wasn't fast enough or Magnus had the better connections.

Sven and Magnus had a rather long powersharing in Denmark though of course with frequent fighting. Harald Hardrada was the uncle of Magnus who had been the commander of the Imperial bodyguard at Byzantium the Vaeringer - he was incredibly rich and shared his wealth with Magnus who in return let him rule Norway. Following the death of Magnus Harald also tried getting his hands on Denmark. Sven tried getting help from Edward 1048 without luck though supporting the HRE Emperor Sven got the support he needed against Harald and could secure his hold on Denmark.

William did try get Sven and his sons off his back so he might have paid Sven off.

I very much agree that I would expect Sven to press his advantage though it seems to me that he got out the gate too late due to the Wends rebellion killing his son-in-law and ally Gotskalk and humiliating his daughter and baby grandson or perhaps he just didn't think the time ripe; though I think he had a better chance just following the defeat of Harold.

[575]

I'm reading my new book of Sven Estridsen - his problems with Harold Hardrada made him ask the support of the Church which he got along assurance that he were the rightful ruler of Denmark, Norway and claimant to England. Being so reliant upon the Church and William having obtained a Papal Standard for the Conquest of England may this have been the real problem?
I am well aware that Hamburg-Bremen was something of a nuisance to the Papacy because of its wanting to gain supremacy of the Mission in Scandinavia though on the other hand at times it used Papal letters to pressure a King like Sven Estridsen. Thus the two could end up in the Church NOT supporting Sven regarding England but having no problem about his doings in Scandinavia and around the Baltic.

[kasumigenx]

May 7, 2022 10:36:48 GMT 575 said:

Had a go through earlier threads and Alternate 1066 caught my attention - I thought that the obvious pretender to go to England once Harold had been defeated at Stamford Bridge and possible invested at York would be Sven Estridsen King of Denmark; why didn't he send off an expedition to take advantage of the situation till 1069?

The problem seems to have been the Wends anti-Christian rebellion of 1066 where their King Gotskalk had been killed on 7. June 1066. Gotskalk being an ally of Denmarks was married to Svens daughter Sigrid. As her husband had been killed she took her son Henrik along fleeing for her fathers Kingdom.

There is no sources I could find on Danish support to the Punitive Expedition into Wends lands 1067-8 led by Bishop Burchard of Halberstadt mentioned here though that also mention an internal war during 1056 between 2 x 2 Wends tribes where one party called on the Saxons, Danes and Obodrites for help - which was sent.

So Sven may well have been prohibited in sending his ships to England 1066 surely 1069 shows he had all intention.

Without a Wends rebellion against his ally Sven Estridsen may well send off the Danish Army during late September 1066 post Stamford Bridge to reap the benefits!

Edit: Found this home page which claims that Harold Godwinsons children went to Denmark to get King Sven aid them. Also state that Sven viewed himself a successor to the English Throne.

I think they would also benefit from the marriage of Adela of Flanders.