stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 28, 2022 17:12:40 GMT
Thank for answer Stevep The french army is separate, the 6th army order hold Paris while the German 1th 2th, 3th, 4th stand between Paris and french 5th, 9th and 4th at Marne and french 3th 2th and 1th Army hold position against German 5th, 6th, 7th Army, While BEF as issue with French defence at Paris (the french mistake them for Germans and open fire) This is a pat situation that easy end in Trench warfare, not wanted by general and Me the author Already on 2 September the French Government fled Paris toward Bordeaux together with 1/3 of Paris population...
(OTL The government returned to Paris on December 11, 1914) Moltke has two options: 1. seek decide Victory in second Battle fighting french 5th, 9th and 4th at Marne and 3th 2th and 1th Army on German border. 2. attack Paris with 1th army, Paris is heavy defender by french 6th army, BEF and local Forces in two rings of Fortresses. Joffre options also not better 1. seek decide Victory in second Battle fighting german 1th, 2th, 3th and 4th Army 2. strategic retreat of his armies toward Paris, but giving Germans more space to move 3. Invade Germany with 3th 2th and 1th Army in hope the Germans move their Forces away from Marne toward the German Border. in mean time Germany control the Belgium Railway and bring resupply and reinforcement to frontline in France.
Well for the French I suspect 2 would be the best option as the German forces are at the end of very long supply lines but I suspect its probably more likely he would try 1. Think by this time 3 was a dead letter.
OTL the Belgians managed to sabotage much of their railway network in the regions occupied by this stage so the Germans were having to supply their right wing largely by horse-drawn vehicles. Are you thinking the faster conquest of south and central Belgium will change this factor?
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Jul 28, 2022 18:29:09 GMT
Well for the French I suspect 2 would be the best option as the German forces are at the end of very long supply lines but I suspect its probably more likely he would try 1. If Joffre move his troops toward Paris inclusive his 3th, 2th and 1th Army as needed reserve, the German 5th, 6th, 7th Army move into France and join the others. (if Moltke ignore Verdun !) So his only option to seek another battle at Marne with Germans... Think by this time 3 was a dead letter. I think the same on that now... OTL the Belgians managed to sabotage much of their railway network in the regions occupied by this stage so the Germans were having to supply their right wing largely by horse-drawn vehicles. Are you thinking the faster conquest of south and central Belgium will change this factor? That new info for me, i knew that Belgium had resistance and German reaction was mass executions and punitive measures that let to term "The Rape of Belgium". In order to get Supply and heavy equipment, German Army needed Belgium Railway special junctions in city of Liege, THE key access toward entire Frontline in France ! Actually what German Army has to control is Wallonia and it's railway and ignore Flanders... (NOTE the Belgium Railway Network of 1914 was far more extended as Today !!! see here upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/Roell-1912_Karte_der_Belgischen_Eisenbahnen.jpg) |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Jul 31, 2022 19:53:22 GMT
looking on Maps of Battle of Marne i found this note on French 9th 3th Army "
Difficult fighting and gains back and forth, not shown"
In context of original battle of Marne, do von Kluck action the german 1th army was east of Paris together with 2th army.
here the BEF And french 6th and 5th for united front against the Germans supporting the French 9th army forcing the Germans to retreat.
while 3th Army was Lucky, that german 5th Army was attacking Verdun.
in TL is French Army divided, the French 6th and BEF stuck at Paris
While german 1th to 7th army form now one frontline
The french 5th join 9th army to support them
leaving the french 3th Army (Difficult fighting) at mercy of german 5th and 6th army
Sadly i have no numbers on troop strength on french 3th or German 5th, 6th.
But if the french General of 3th make the mistake to retreat to Verdun, he could be surrounded by Germans and besiege.
while french 5th, 9th and 4th fight the main force of Germany Army near the banks of river Seine
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Aug 8, 2022 14:51:00 GMT
Chronological events
Realistic ?
1. The demolition of Eiffel Tower in 1910, The Tower play important role in War like listen to German Radio and Jammed them. (in 1909/10 were the permit renewed by one vote, in favour to let tower stand.)
2. The german 2th Army bring heavy Guns from begin to Liege and conquer the city, While 1th Army bypass Liege, moving true Belgium.
3. There is no move of german HQ from Coblentz to Luxemburg on 29 August 1914 - That's the point were Moltke lost overview of entire Frontline !
4. Moltke order Von Kluck to stay in formation and encircle Paris as planned and attack the back of BEF and French Armies ! (Von Kluck unauthorised move to east happen on 29 august 1914)
5. Moltke refuse request of 5th Army to attack French fortresses Verdun and order to support the german 4th army against the french 4th Army
6. BEF Field Marshal French start to panic, as he get information there German forces behind the BEF troops and in front of them. he order retreating to Paris, leaving a gap for 1th Army
7. battle of Marne 6 September-10 September 1914.
Germans start with artillery attacks on french 9th and 4th army flanks who cannot attack do marches of St Gond in front of them
the 5th, 9th, 4th retreat south east because marches of Episy in south followed by German 2th Army while 1th army is to exhaust to follow them.
German 4th army march east do marches of St Gond and close front with german 5th army against 3th french army under General Sarrail
He make strategic blunder to retreat toward Verdun creating a gaps in Frontline that exploit the German 4th and 5th who divided the french frontline
and with help 6th army north flank manage to encircle Verdun.
8. situation after battle of Marne.
French Frontline divide - the 6th and BEF are at Paris. the 5th, 9th and 4th are south at and regroup north of city Troyes, the 3th is besiege in Verdun, while 2th and 1th army hold the German army at bay.
Marshal Joffre order to prepare to liberated Verdun and reenforce the army with inexperienced recruits.
German frontline 1th recuperate from March, 2th follow the french 5th army with order to from with 4th army new frontline, the 4th and 5th with part of 6th encircle Verdun.
Moltke order that Verdun is besiege and attack with heavy Gun, the 4th and 5th has hold the encircle of Verdun, the 1th, 2th and 3th has to follow french army near Troyes, if necessary the 6th and 7th has to attack french army.
9. The battle of Verdun. 15-20 September
The French 4th, 5th and 9th attack the german 4th and 5th army near Verdun and try to break true frontline to liberate Verdun.
But only to have german 1th, 2th and 3th Army in the flanks, what force french 5th and 9th to fight them, while the 4th continue the attack toward Verdun
The 4th army General de Langle de Cary request support of french 2th Army, who comply.
Mean time the German manage to soften the Verdun fortress up with a bombardment, in preparatory to the assault, while french 3th army hold out in fortress and Basements.
and the German 6th army manage to use gap left by french 2th army and invade French territory toward Verdun.
The french 4th and 2th army retreat as german 6th Army join the 4th and 5th
Unable to defend Verdun Fortress or the Town without supplies General Sarrail surrender to German,
10. situation after battle of Verdun.
The lost of the Fortress and 3th Army was a shock for french people.
While Marshal Joffre look into his options, start French Government in Bordeaux diplomatic talks with Germans about ceasefire and terms of surrender.
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