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Post by shadow007 on Aug 11, 2022 1:55:05 GMT
After the disastrous Bay of Pigs a VERY ANGRY JFK outright disbands the CIA and replaces the agency
I have no idea how JFK could make a better version of the CIA or how it changes history. Hopefully for the better.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 11, 2022 2:52:51 GMT
After the disastrous Bay of Pigs a VERY ANGRY JFK outright disbands the CIA and replaces the agency I have no idea how JFK could make a better version of the CIA or how it changes history. Hopefully for the better. Well it will still be the CIA but with a different name. |
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Post by shadow007 on Aug 11, 2022 3:05:31 GMT
After the disastrous Bay of Pigs a VERY ANGRY JFK outright disbands the CIA and replaces the agency I have no idea how JFK could make a better version of the CIA or how it changes history. Hopefully for the better. Well it will still be the CIA but with a different name. So stll have torture camps? Still do a lot of horrible shit in Latin America? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 11, 2022 3:07:39 GMT
Well it will still be the CIA but with a different name. So stll have torture camps? Still do a lot of horrible shit in Latin America? Where where the torture camps. |
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Post by shadow007 on Aug 11, 2022 3:56:54 GMT
So stll have torture camps? Still do a lot of horrible shit in Latin America? Where where the torture camps. Blacksites. Whatever else they are called So subjecting a very young Unibomber (15 years old) to MKULTRA isn't torture? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 11, 2022 3:58:50 GMT
Where where the torture camps. Blacksites. Whatever else they are called So subjecting a very young Unibomber (15 years old) to MKULTRA isn't torture? Please clarify the remark about the young Unibomber (15 years old) to MKULTRA please. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 11, 2022 7:03:17 GMT
Theodore Kazynski was part of a voluntary series of experiments that might have been connected to MKULTRA.
On the main question, whatever emerges will be much the same, as the need drives it. The idea that the Kennedy Administration would not stuff up any (unnecessary) reboot of the Agency isn’t supported by a lot of objective evidence.
The Bay of Pigs was an overly optimistic and ‘under competent’ operation from go to woe, but can’t be hung on the CIA alone.
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on Aug 11, 2022 8:42:20 GMT
There were next Bay of Pigs fiasco in 1961
other issue with CIA that let JFK to force the Director of CIA Allen Welsh Dulles to resign from office
like removal of democratic president of Guatemala, to protect interest of the United Fruit Company's were Dulles (or his brother) was in time in there Board of Directors...
The failed attempt to Kill Fidel Castro, and the issue of Algier Putsch in France in 1961
Kennedy wanted like he say "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it into the winds."
but he had option to put the CIA under Congressional supervision
They also would not have disbands the CIA, just clean the mess up
the only scenario i can think of, is that during nuclear War the CIA Hq was hit and after War, they establish new Agency...
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Aug 11, 2022 16:59:07 GMT
After the disastrous Bay of Pigs a VERY ANGRY JFK outright disbands the CIA and replaces the agency I have no idea how JFK could make a better version of the CIA or how it changes history. Hopefully for the better. Please go for it shadow007, that ATL sounds very, very intriguing. I bet you can do a lot with it. A very dear old friend of mine, no longer with us, and a few others here contended for many years the CIA was so Corrupt and criminally incompetent that nothing short of totally abolishing it would do. He also told me down at Newport News gathering of HPCA, he favored trying and then when found guilty locking up the key CIA players all the way back to September 18, 1947, for life. He also strongly recommended ensuring no one who ever worked for the CIA ever was allowed a security clearance or employment by a federal, state or local public agency.
God knows I miss that man. This would sort of be a tribute to him, in my eyes at least. If you don't do it and I don't get laughed out of this Forum for committing literary genocide, I just might do it myself.  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 11, 2022 17:02:45 GMT
After the disastrous Bay of Pigs a VERY ANGRY JFK outright disbands the CIA and replaces the agency I have no idea how JFK could make a better version of the CIA or how it changes history. Hopefully for the better. Please go for it shadow007, that ATL sounds very, very intriguing. I bet you can do a lot with it. A very dear old friend of mine, no longer with us, and a few others here contended for many years the CIA was so Corrupt and criminally incompetent that nothing short of totally abolishing it would do. He also told me down at Newport News gathering of HPCA, he favored trying and then when found guilty locking up the key CIA players all the way back to September 18, 1947, for life. He also strongly recommended ensuring no one who ever worked for the CIA ever was allowed a security clearance or employment by a federal, state or local public agency.
God knows I miss that man. This would sort of be a tribute to him, in my eyes at least. If you don't do it and I don't get laughed out of this Forum for committing literary genocide, I just might do it myself. Now the question, what name should the Agency Former Known as the CIA have. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Aug 11, 2022 23:46:37 GMT
Where where the torture camps. Blacksites. Whatever else they are called So subjecting a very young Unibomber (15 years old) to MKULTRA isn't torture? Interesting. I never even heard of MK-Ultra until I received your message. As for Ted the Unabomber, I have zero sympathy for him. I save my sympathy for the bastard's victims. You got it? Enough said on that matter.
FWIW, I worked with the CIA in Nam and a few times after. Let's just say none of those Spec Ops Senior CIA types impressed me with their competence or trustworthiness but they did scare me as they seemed to have written the book on how to blame the Naval and military types for any botched op. I seen it more than a few times. Don't let anyone kid you in those days a lot of ops went very, very wrong.
That said, the American field folks were not too bad. But the things they recruited from SEA and transferred from Europe, quite a few "Ost" Germans and Eastern Europeans employed by the CIA supporting 3rd SOG, was an entirely different matter. Enough said on that old score. IMO More than enough reason to get rid of the CIA, certainly it's senior leadership and a fair amount of the lower level types.
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1bigrich
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 12, 2022 13:54:36 GMT
After the disastrous Bay of Pigs a VERY ANGRY JFK outright disbands the CIA and replaces the agency I have no idea how JFK could make a better version of the CIA or how it changes history. Hopefully for the better. Prior to World War II, the US divided the planet for intelligence purposes: - The Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) had responsibility for the Asia-Pacific. - G2 (US Army Intelligence) had responsibility for Europe and Africa. - The Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) had responsibility for North and South America 1947 saw the suppression of the War Department (US Army) and Navy Department under the Department of Defense, along with the creation of the US Air Force. In September 1961, under Kennedy, the National Reconnaissance Office* was created. In October of the same year, the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) was formed. If the CIA is disbanded by Kennedy, what he could do is return to something of a pre-war model, but without the regional divisions. Bring the military intelligence services to the fore, along with Air Force ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance) for communications and human intelligence, use the NRO for spy satellites and make the DIA the clearing-house for information. Put the FBI in charge of counter-intelligence operations in the US and have official communications channels between the DIA and FBI to coordinate counter-intelligence information. Put dirty tricks/covert operations under the DIA. As an aside, let me recommend Knightly's The Second Oldest Profession www.amazon.com/Second-Oldest-Profession-Penguin-handbook/dp/0140106553"The craft of intelligence is the second oldest profession, and every bit as honorable as the first." My thoughts, *One of the earliest spy satellites was KH-11 (Key Hole 11) but it used film to take pictures over the Soviet Union. Some of the early Gemini mission space walks were to change and recover the film rolls from KH-11. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Aug 12, 2022 18:07:28 GMT
"The craft of intelligence is the second oldest profession, and every bit as honorable as the first." |
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Post by shadow007 on Aug 13, 2022 6:50:34 GMT
Blacksites. Whatever else they are called So subjecting a very young Unibomber (15 years old) to MKULTRA isn't torture? Interesting. I never even heard of MK-Ultra until I received your message. As for Ted the Unabomber, I have zero sympathy for him. I save my sympathy for the bastard's victims. You got it? Enough said on that matter.
FWIW, I worked with the CIA in Nam and a few times after. Let's just say none of those Spec Ops Senior CIA types impressed me with their competence or trustworthiness but they did scare me as they seemed to have written the book on how to blame the Naval and military types for any botched op. I seen it more than a few times. Don't let anyone kid you in those days a lot of ops went very, very wrong.
That said, the American field folks were not too bad. But the things they recruited from SEA and transferred from Europe, quite a few "Ost" Germans and Eastern Europeans employed by the CIA supporting 3rd SOG, was an entirely different matter. Enough said on that old score. IMO More than enough reason to get rid of the CIA, certainly it's senior leadership and a fair amount of the lower level types.
You do realize MKULTRA created the Unibomber and screwed up many individuals for life? Think of the cast from Ray Donovan and how a single Pedophile Priest ruined their lives. The CIA's unethical experiments dealt similar trauma to teens!!! Without the CIA there would be no Unibomber and the Cartels wouldn't be as powerful as they are |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 13, 2022 7:12:58 GMT
Okay lets keep this thread focus on the 1961 JFK disbands and replaces the CIA with something better and not what the cIA did ore did not do as we might end up with current events which will force me to move ore close this thread.
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