Schleswig goes back in time

[melanie]

The territory as it is in 1990 but that comprised the Duchy of Schleswig in 1861 is *actually transported to from 1990 to 1861* arriving on the first of January at 5:30 AM Copenhagen time.

[575]

Well the uptimers are going to present the downtimers with the Bonn-Declarations assuring both sides that peacefull coexistence is possible and this protocol should be respected. The Brits will be pissed of the Heligolanders assuring them that they belong to Germany!

[stevep]

Sept 18, 2022 7:54:33 GMT 575 said:

Well the uptimers are going to present the downtimers with the Bonn-Declarations assuring both sides that peacefull coexistence is possible and this protocol should be respected. The Brits will be pissed of the Heligolanders assuring them that they belong to Germany!

  Had overlooked that Heligoland was included in the ISOT.  Good point although strictly speaking Germany doesn't exist at this point.

  With a 1-1-1860 date for the up-timers to arrive the big factor will be news of future events, probably most immediately Bismarck's wars and the defeat of Denmark, Austria and France which is going to affect the actions of all those powers and probably make them look a lot more carefully at Prussia.  Could even result in pressure that Bismarck never actions becomes a prominent politician?

  Similarly when news crosses the Atlantic what will the US make of Lincoln winning the forthcoming election due to a divided opposition and the civil war that follows.  Do the Democrats get their act together to win the election.  If Lincoln still gains the Presidency what does the OTL south do?

  There will be a lot of other events coming up including the Anglo-French conflict with China - often inaccurately called the 2nd Opium War - and numerous other events across the world. 

  I suspect that events beyond the next couple of days are likely to be less important to the down-timers as they will seem too distant and alien.  Mind you ideas like racial equality, equal rights for women, let alone homosexuals and the ending of colonial empires and the fall of the bulk of the autocratic states - albeit to be replaced by even more autocratic ones in Germany and the Russian empire will set a lot of the powerful thinking. 

  Technology transfers will be a factor as well.  While the region affected might be too small to maintain the technology its gotten it will be able to support some and the sheer knowledge, such as details of medical advances and how to control/combat many diseases or simply the dangers of smoking could change a lot over the coming decades.

[575]

Sept 18, 2022 11:44:53 GMT stevep said:

Sept 18, 2022 7:54:33 GMT 575 said:

Well the uptimers are going to present the downtimers with the Bonn-Declarations assuring both sides that peacefull coexistence is possible and this protocol should be respected. The Brits will be pissed of the Heligolanders assuring them that they belong to Germany!

  Had overlooked that Heligoland was included in the ISOT.  Good point although strictly speaking Germany doesn't exist at this point.

  With a 1-1-1860 date for the up-timers to arrive the big factor will be news of future events, probably most immediately Bismarck's wars and the defeat of Denmark, Austria and France which is going to affect the actions of all those powers and probably make them look a lot more carefully at Prussia.  Could even result in pressure that Bismarck never actions becomes a prominent politician?

  Similarly when news crosses the Atlantic what will the US make of Lincoln winning the forthcoming election due to a divided opposition and the civil war that follows.  Do the Democrats get their act together to win the election.  If Lincoln still gains the Presidency what does the OTL south do?

  There will be a lot of other events coming up including the Anglo-French conflict with China - often inaccurately called the 2nd Opium War - and numerous other events across the world. 

  I suspect that events beyond the next couple of days are likely to be less important to the down-timers as they will seem too distant and alien.  Mind you ideas like racial equality, equal rights for women, let alone homosexuals and the ending of colonial empires and the fall of the bulk of the autocratic states - albeit to be replaced by even more autocratic ones in Germany and the Russian empire will set a lot of the powerful thinking. 

  Technology transfers will be a factor as well.  While the region affected might be too small to maintain the technology its gotten it will be able to support some and the sheer knowledge, such as details of medical advances and how to control/combat many diseases or simply the dangers of smoking could change a lot over the coming decades.

No but the German Confederation do. Should have spelled that one out.

Re Bismarck the event may butterfly the 1864 war because why go to war when the majority of this area already belongs/want to be part of German Conf. and also Heligoland! At least I don't see him convicing Austria to go to war against Denmark ITTL - IF he becomes Chancellor of Prussia.

Tech maintenance may be a problem; there will be windturbines(we call them windmills) and solar panels around to make for some electricity generating but a lack of fossil fuel will become a problem.

True about modern ethic's though its 1990 so will not be as prominent as of today.

There should be some medical industry in the area as well as a robotics factory at Sønderborg - don't really know about the German parts.

The most immediate benefit to the downtime will be improved farming and medicines - if its taken up.

[stevep]

Sept 18, 2022 13:06:14 GMT 575 said:

Sept 18, 2022 11:44:53 GMT stevep said:

  Had overlooked that Heligoland was included in the ISOT.  Good point although strictly speaking Germany doesn't exist at this point.

  With a 1-1-1860 date for the up-timers to arrive the big factor will be news of future events, probably most immediately Bismarck's wars and the defeat of Denmark, Austria and France which is going to affect the actions of all those powers and probably make them look a lot more carefully at Prussia.  Could even result in pressure that Bismarck never actions becomes a prominent politician?

  Similarly when news crosses the Atlantic what will the US make of Lincoln winning the forthcoming election due to a divided opposition and the civil war that follows.  Do the Democrats get their act together to win the election.  If Lincoln still gains the Presidency what does the OTL south do?

  There will be a lot of other events coming up including the Anglo-French conflict with China - often inaccurately called the 2nd Opium War - and numerous other events across the world. 

  I suspect that events beyond the next couple of days are likely to be less important to the down-timers as they will seem too distant and alien.  Mind you ideas like racial equality, equal rights for women, let alone homosexuals and the ending of colonial empires and the fall of the bulk of the autocratic states - albeit to be replaced by even more autocratic ones in Germany and the Russian empire will set a lot of the powerful thinking. 

  Technology transfers will be a factor as well.  While the region affected might be too small to maintain the technology its gotten it will be able to support some and the sheer knowledge, such as details of medical advances and how to control/combat many diseases or simply the dangers of smoking could change a lot over the coming decades.

No but the German Confederation do. Should have spelled that one out.

Re Bismarck the event may butterfly the 1864 war because why go to war when the majority of this area already belongs/want to be part of German Conf. and also Heligoland! At least I don't see him convicing Austria to go to war against Denmark ITTL - IF he becomes Chancellor of Prussia.

  Would they want to.  1860 German Confederation doesn't have even adult male suffrage let alone a lot of the other civil rights that the 1990 west will take for granted.  I suspect the overall reaction will be we're better off together with the affected areas forming a loose confederation that insists on being neither Danish or German.  And in the short term at least they have the power to make it stick. 

Tech maintenance may be a problem; there will be windturbines(we call them windmills) and solar panels around to make for some electricity generating but a lack of fossil fuel will become a problem.

  Well 1990 was less centralised in technology so they might be able to maintain a lot of stuff although the more advanced machinery is likely to have a limited lifespan, especially anything with advanced electronics especially computers and aircraft and the like.  Depends on what the area could support at that time.

True about modern ethic's though its 1990 so will not be as prominent as of today.

  The bulk of it is still there with equal rights for women and minority races and while homosexuals may still be somewhat restricted their allowed to openly exist.

There should be some medical industry in the area as well as a robotics factory at Sønderborg - don't really know about the German parts.
The most immediate benefit to the downtime will be improved farming and medicines - if its taken up

  I agree those are the areas where tech transfer and related knowledge are likely to be the most important.
.

[575]

Sept 18, 2022 15:08:22 GMT stevep said:

Sept 18, 2022 13:06:14 GMT 575 said:

No but the German Confederation do. Should have spelled that one out.

Re Bismarck the event may butterfly the 1864 war because why go to war when the majority of this area already belongs/want to be part of German Conf. and also Heligoland! At least I don't see him convicing Austria to go to war against Denmark ITTL - IF he becomes Chancellor of Prussia.

  Would they want to.  1860 German Confederation doesn't have even adult male suffrage let alone a lot of the other civil rights that the 1990 west will take for granted.  I suspect the overall reaction will be we're better off together with the affected areas forming a loose confederation that insists on being neither Danish or German.  And in the short term at least they have the power to make it stick. 

Your'e right - they may not want to. Would be interesting to see it fleshed out.

[shadow007]

The Confederacy is screwed. A few Uptimers not only provide support to the Union but also unleash hell on the southern US for being the ancestors of many Far-right groups including the Nazis

Any oppressed group would simply pack up and go to Schleswig or allied territory. US and other nations experience a massive Brain Drain at the worst possible time