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Post by germanbread on Oct 15, 2022 16:37:36 GMT
What if Italy was split in half after WW2?
A Yugoslavic revolution against the Nazis occurs when Operation Overlord is shown to be a success, along with Italy not switching sides, this causes the Soviets to occupy Northern Italy. Italy is split between a Northern Italian communist puppet state of the Soviets, a democracy anti communist southern Italian state, and the neutral, monarchist Sardinia Piedmont ment to act as a buffer state between France and North Italy. North Italy is more successful than the South due to having more industry. South Italy becomes impoverished due to being rural and being unable to industrialize unless they pull a Stalin and force the country to industrialize, which the USA will never let that happen. The mafia uses this to their advantage and take control South Italy's government. NATO makes a deal with the mafia, they can stay in power, as long as they activately takes measures against communism, which is what happens. North Italy becomes the most self reliant out off all the other members of the Warsaw Pact because they are the most Western and out the Soviets reach. When the Soviets fall North Italy becomes a left leaning democracy, and their is no longer a point for the states of Sardinia Piedmont and South Italy to exist. Sardinia Piedmont is willing to unify with North Italy as long as the monarchy gets at least a little say in the government, which is what happens, however South Italy isn't willing to unify as the mafia doesn't want to give up their power in Italy. North Italy joins the EU and NATO, while South Italy becomes isolationist. The Italian War starts as North Italy invades South Italy in an attempt to reunite the peninsula. North Italy is supported by NATO, and South Italy gets pushed back to Sicily. When North Italy prepares to invade Sicily, South Italy allies with Russia, who threatens to nuke NATO members if North Italy invades Sicily. This causes the Italian War to end with the result being the the Italian peninsula being unified, and sicily being an independent country ruled by the mafia. Everything else is the same after that except for a left leaning Italy and a mafia controlled Sicily.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 15, 2022 16:58:31 GMT
What if Italy was split in half after WW2? A Yugoslavic revolution against the Nazis occurs when Operation Overlord is shown to be a success, along with Italy not switching sides, this causes the Soviets to occupy Northern Italy. Italy is split between a Northern Italian communist puppet state of the Soviets, a democracy anti communist southern Italian state, and the neutral, monarchist Sardinia Piedmont ment to act as a buffer state between France and North Italy. North Italy is more successful than the South due to having more industry. South Italy becomes impoverished due to being rural and being unable to industrialize unless they pull a Stalin and force the country to industrialize, which the USA will never let that happen. The mafia uses this to their advantage and take control South Italy's government. NATO makes a deal with the mafia, they can stay in power, as long as they activately takes measures against communism, which is what happens. North Italy becomes the most self reliant out off all the other members of the Warsaw Pact because they are the most Western and out the Soviets reach. When the Soviets fall North Italy becomes a left leaning democracy, and their is no longer a point for the states of Sardinia Piedmont and South Italy to exist. Sardinia Piedmont is willing to unify with North Italy as long as the monarchy gets at least a little say in the government, which is what happens, however South Italy isn't willing to unify as the mafia doesn't want to give up their power in Italy. North Italy joins the EU and NATO, while South Italy becomes isolationist. The Italian War starts as North Italy invades South Italy in an attempt to reunite the peninsula. North Italy is supported by NATO, and South Italy gets pushed back to Sicily. When North Italy prepares to invade Sicily, South Italy allies with Russia, who threatens to nuke NATO members if North Italy invades Sicily. This causes the Italian War to end with the result being the the Italian peninsula being unified, and sicily being an independent country ruled by the mafia. Everything else is the same after that except for a left leaning Italy and a mafia controlled Sicily. Would Rome also be divided between the power + Vatican. |
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Post by germanbread on Oct 15, 2022 17:03:47 GMT
What if Italy was split in half after WW2? A Yugoslavic revolution against the Nazis occurs when Operation Overlord is shown to be a success, along with Italy not switching sides, this causes the Soviets to occupy Northern Italy. Italy is split between a Northern Italian communist puppet state of the Soviets, a democracy anti communist southern Italian state, and the neutral, monarchist Sardinia Piedmont ment to act as a buffer state between France and North Italy. North Italy is more successful than the South due to having more industry. South Italy becomes impoverished due to being rural and being unable to industrialize unless they pull a Stalin and force the country to industrialize, which the USA will never let that happen. The mafia uses this to their advantage and take control South Italy's government. NATO makes a deal with the mafia, they can stay in power, as long as they activately takes measures against communism, which is what happens. North Italy becomes the most self reliant out off all the other members of the Warsaw Pact because they are the most Western and out the Soviets reach. When the Soviets fall North Italy becomes a left leaning democracy, and their is no longer a point for the states of Sardinia Piedmont and South Italy to exist. Sardinia Piedmont is willing to unify with North Italy as long as the monarchy gets at least a little say in the government, which is what happens, however South Italy isn't willing to unify as the mafia doesn't want to give up their power in Italy. North Italy joins the EU and NATO, while South Italy becomes isolationist. The Italian War starts as North Italy invades South Italy in an attempt to reunite the peninsula. North Italy is supported by NATO, and South Italy gets pushed back to Sicily. When North Italy prepares to invade Sicily, South Italy allies with Russia, who threatens to nuke NATO members if North Italy invades Sicily. This causes the Italian War to end with the result being the the Italian peninsula being unified, and sicily being an independent country ruled by the mafia. Everything else is the same after that except for a left leaning Italy and a mafia controlled Sicily. Would Rome also be divided between the power + Vatican. Perhaps. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 15, 2022 17:07:14 GMT
Would Rome also be divided between the power + Vatican. Perhaps. Because we saw it in Berlin and Vienna where the powers divided the city's, now only question is, will the Vatican remain a independent state ore disappear. |
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Post by germanbread on Oct 15, 2022 17:30:40 GMT
Because we saw it in Berlin and Vienna where the powers divided the city's, now only question is, will the Vatican remain a independent state ore disappear. I think the Vatican would stay independent, but who knows. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Oct 22, 2022 2:24:57 GMT
Well, there have been thought going round of making Sicily a new state.
If only the Pope hadn't made the Lateran treaties with Mussolini, maybe they'd have resurrected the Papal States as well. If the WAllies liked the Catholics more, that is.
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 23, 2022 1:48:11 GMT
A number of issues with plausability:
A.) The Soviets making it to Northern Italy first requires either much swifter penetration of South Central Europe or general Allied collapse in Italy post June 1944. The former creates much more concern than a Red Italy insofar as Central Europe is concerned. A Yugoslav revolution doesn't cut it, particularly given the riven nature of the Serbo-Croat relationship and the @ Partisan War.
B.) A Sardinia-Piedmont buffer state is unlikely, but the issue of Allied troops in Southern France is another reason that your scenario falls down.
C.) Mafia seizure of a government is fantasy.
D.) The rest of 1945-1990 happening exactly as in @ is similarly illogical and implausible.
E.) The Italian War is utter fantasy and arrant nonsense.
You begin with a semi-serious notion of a split Italy, but do not explore the wider consequences of what it would take to do that, as it would entail a major shift in the Cold War frontlines of Europe. You then fall into a trap of 'having everything else happen the same', which does not occur in alternate history due to consequences and butterfly effects. This comes from trying to cram too much into a single scenario. A split Italy is one thing; a Mafia Sicily is another, although probably better for ASB in the latter case.
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Post by germanbread on Oct 23, 2022 4:04:23 GMT
A number of issues with plausability: A.) The Soviets making it to Northern Italy first requires either much swifter penetration of South Central Europe or general Allied collapse in Italy post June 1944. The former creates much more concern than a Red Italy insofar as Central Europe is concerned. A Yugoslav revolution doesn't cut it, particularly given the riven nature of the Serbo-Croat relationship and the @ Partisan War. B.) A Sardinia-Piedmont buffer state is unlikely, but the issue of Allied troops in Southern France is another reason that your scenario falls down. C.) Mafia seizure of a government is fantasy. D.) The rest of 1945-1990 happening exactly as in @ is similarly illogical and implausible. E.) The Italian War is utter fantasy and arrant nonsense. You begin with a semi-serious notion of a split Italy, but do not explore the wider consequences of what it would take to do that, as it would entail a major shift in the Cold War frontlines of Europe. You then fall into a trap of 'having everything else happen the same', which does not occur in alternate history due to consequences and butterfly effects. This comes from trying to cram too much into a single scenario. A split Italy is one thing; a Mafia Sicily is another, although probably better for ASB in the latter case. Boy, you sure do love taking the fun out of having fun creating alternate history. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 23, 2022 6:47:18 GMT
Boy, you sure do love taking the fun out of having fun creating alternate history. There is no rule that a member who post in a thread must be fun. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 23, 2022 8:28:21 GMT
Nor is there a set definition of fun; however, there is what would seem to be a fairly strong consensus that fun and quality are not mutually exclusive. When you idly brush over the consequences of very broad sweeping events, you miss out on rigour and quality. If you don’t want a timeline or story assessed in the standard serious manner, then be clear on it by the initial post and the forum you put it in. As a general rule here, ASB serves as one home for more jocular efforts, with the Writer’s Forum being another. If in doubt, ask.
Fun isn’t a shibboleth to get you through everything, but what is such is a great open attitude. This is a small place, but for its membership, it has a very high level of experience and expertise, almost unmatched in the 29 years I’ve been active online. Make the most of it and ask for opinions and thoughts. It is a great help.
Further: Your issue is a simple one: Trying to fit too much into a single PoD. Separate them, plan and explore them, then put them together. The more you try and push, the harder it gets to justify.
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Post by germanbread on Oct 23, 2022 13:05:07 GMT
Boy, you sure do love taking the fun out of having fun creating alternate history. There is no rule that a member who post in a thread must be fun. Just so you know, he locked my thread because he didn't like it. My thread didn't break any rules, he just didn't liked it and he locked it, and just so you know I'm 12 years old. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 23, 2022 13:14:12 GMT
There is no rule that a member who post in a thread must be fun. Just so you know, he locked my thread because he didn't like it. My thread didn't break any rules, he just didn't liked it and he locked it, and just so you know I'm 12 years old. |
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