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Post by shadow007 on Oct 16, 2022 5:19:34 GMT
So the entirety of Munich from the start of the Franco-Prussian War is ISOT to when Charlemagne kick the bucket
The Pope now has a massive headache dealing with Socialism, Secularism, Liberalism, Protestanism, 1870s Military Tech and the Industrial Revolution
Islam now has to either change and accept heretical ideals or risk losing everything
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 17, 2022 13:34:49 GMT
So the entirety of Munich from the start of the Franco-Prussian War is ISOT to when Charlemagne kick the bucket The Pope now has a massive headache dealing with Socialism, Secularism, Liberalism, Protestanism, 1870s Military Tech and the Industrial Revolution Islam now has to either change and accept heretical ideals or risk losing everything
How well could an urban area from the mid-19thC adjust to the loss of all the links for trade, supply, power etc that it was used to and now finding itself in a far more backward world? Not to mention issues of replacing equipment and technology and possibly a lot more diseases. Still its probably somewhat better than a few years earlier as Charlemagne is likely to be distinctly hostile to any independent Munich state and its ideas.
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Post by shadow007 on Oct 22, 2022 5:28:53 GMT
So the entirety of Munich from the start of the Franco-Prussian War is ISOT to when Charlemagne kick the bucket The Pope now has a massive headache dealing with Socialism, Secularism, Liberalism, Protestanism, 1870s Military Tech and the Industrial Revolution Islam now has to either change and accept heretical ideals or risk losing everything
How well could an urban area from the mid-19thC adjust to the loss of all the links for trade, supply, power etc that it was used to and now finding itself in a far more backward world? Not to mention issues of replacing equipment and technology and possibly a lot more diseases. Still its probably somewhat better than a few years earlier as Charlemagne is likely to be distinctly hostile to any independent Munich state and its ideas.
Vaccines already existed by this point. Future humans have better immune systems and more tolerance of disease. There is lots of free real estate and 'free real estate' for new farming and mining Charlemagne has no counter to telescopes, binoculars, machineguns, railroads, grenades, rifles and artillery |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 22, 2022 12:31:29 GMT
How well could an urban area from the mid-19thC adjust to the loss of all the links for trade, supply, power etc that it was used to and now finding itself in a far more backward world? Not to mention issues of replacing equipment and technology and possibly a lot more diseases. Still its probably somewhat better than a few years earlier as Charlemagne is likely to be distinctly hostile to any independent Munich state and its ideas.
Vaccines already existed by this point. Future humans have better immune systems and more tolerance of disease. Some do, although its quite early in the process plus there could well be a significant difference between 1870 and 814 versions of diseases. Munich could have the capacity to manufacture existing vaccines but developing new ones before disease decimates an already deeply vulnerable isolated society and forces a major collapse. 1870 humans will overall be healthier - although possibly not in slum areas - due to better nutrition but they will have less experience of a lot of the problems and hardships of the earlier age.
The local occupants don't consider this 'free' real estate and will strongly resent the up-timers seeking to take the land they live on [and off]. Furthermore even if the up-timers march out quickly and slaughter or drive off the existing population how quickly can they make use of those resources. The Franco-Prussian war started on 19th July so the down-time crops are already in and largely advanced but probably very limited in scope, even without any disruption by the conquest. Its going to be difficult feeding an urban area in the coming winter with that crop, let alone trying to plant new ones, maintaining farm animals during the coming winter etc. Building new mines from scratch even with no real transport infrastructure is going to take a considerable time even if they can find the power for operating whatever mining machinery they can construct.
Charlemagne has gone but there's a lot of nobles and other powerful people who will resent interlopers seeking to take their lands and peasants even without any cultural differences. Telescopes, binoculars etc will help as will modern weapons. However no machine guns at the moment and railways end at the city boundary even if they can find coal, or enough wood to feed the engines. Assuming that most of the military based in the city haven't been moved west to fight the French already how do they maintain gunpowder supplies? Carbon and sulfur can probably be obtained but saltpetre was a big problem if you don't have a local supply all set up. In which case those rifles and artillery become lumps of metal.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 22, 2022 12:44:49 GMT
As Steve points out, the first issue is food. There would not be enough to easily and readily feed the throwback Municheans, nor will they have useful cultivars of either wheat or potatoes present in decent numbers. After that, there are other key resources, such as iron, coal, copper and saltpetre. They have come back into the Iron Age and the Wood Age with only what is available in the city. That presents both issues and opportunities.
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Post by shadow007 on Oct 23, 2022 0:40:33 GMT
As Steve points out, the first issue is food. There would not be enough to easily and readily feed the throwback Municheans, nor will they have useful cultivars of either wheat or potatoes present in decent numbers. After that, there are other key resources, such as iron, coal, copper and saltpetre. They have come back into the Iron Age and the Wood Age with only what is available in the city. That presents both issues and opportunities. Plenty of greedy, short-sighted and long-game potential allies for Munich |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 23, 2022 1:16:21 GMT
How does that statement even make sense?
The surrounding areas don’t have anywhere near the population density of the 19th century, have very different landscapes, societies and language. How do we jump from that to the motivations of whatever local chieftains or potentates could muster. 230,000 people have been placed in a time where Rome has 50,000 and Paris 25,000, Gaul had just 5 millions, in a time of cooling climates, regular crop failures and much smaller livestock sizes.
Munich lies right on the edge of the Empire proper and the Friuli March, so isn’t a thriving heartland area by any stretch. It’s relocation has squashed the major presence in the area, which was a small settlement of monks on the Isar. Beyond the immediate crop lands, there is a lot of forest.
Greedy local lords do not mean that the deep coal mines of the 19th century, which requires years of excavation and steam pumps, are available, nor the tools needed to utilise them. There is also a risk of causing massive inflation if goldmarks are splashed around with too much largesse.
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Post by shadow007 on Oct 27, 2022 4:41:48 GMT
How does that statement even make sense? The surrounding areas don’t have anywhere near the population density of the 19th century, have very different landscapes, societies and language. How do we jump from that to the motivations of whatever local chieftains or potentates could muster. 230,000 people have been placed in a time where Rome has 50,000 and Paris 25,000, Gaul had just 5 millions, in a time of cooling climates, regular crop failures and much smaller livestock sizes. Munich lies right on the edge of the Empire proper and the Friuli March, so isn’t a thriving heartland area by any stretch. It’s relocation has squashed the major presence in the area, which was a small settlement of monks on the Isar. Beyond the immediate crop lands, there is a lot of forest. Greedy local lords do not mean that the deep coal mines of the 19th century, which requires years of excavation and steam pumps, are available, nor the tools needed to utilise them. There is also a risk of causing massive inflation if goldmarks are splashed around with too much largesse. They could just make trade agreements with neighbors. Food in exchange for better farming equipment and other things. Charlemagne's family would try to buy loyalty from Munich or at least a few German Uptimers. The Byzantine Empire will attempt contact and trade as Gunpowder weapons would give them a huge advantage over the Arabs |
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