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Post by shadow007 on Nov 1, 2022 17:18:19 GMT
At the start of 1812 the US and Russia EACH receive 700 T-14 Armata tanks. All of their craftsmen receive manuals on how to maintain, repair and make more of these things. All of their militias/soldiers receive instruction manuals for the tanks.
Obviously this results in a curbstomp on both Canada and Napoleon but I am more interested in the side-effects and long-term changes brought on in this scenario
A modern tank will be much better than a horse-pulled artillery from that time in every possible way. However, new road-making, forest clearing and bridge making techniques are needed to better use the Armatas
The Native Americans, Spain/Mexico and most of Eurasia are screwed unless they get off their asses and really adopt new technologies quickly. Nations all over the world will try to make tanks of their own.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 1, 2022 19:14:23 GMT
At the start of 1812 the US and Russia EACH receive 700 T-14 Armata tanks. All of their craftsmen receive manuals on how to maintain, repair and make more of these things. All of their militias/soldiers receive instruction manuals for the tanks. Obviously this results in a curbstomp on both Canada and Napoleon but I am more interested in the side-effects and long-term changes brought on in this scenario A modern tank will be much better than a horse-pulled artillery from that time in every possible way. However, new road-making, forest clearing and bridge making techniques are needed to better use the Armatas The Native Americans, Spain/Mexico and most of Eurasia are screwed unless they get off their asses and really adopt new technologies quickly. Nations all over the world will try to make tanks of their own. We have a Frivolous ASB thread for these kind of things, also no spare parts for the tanks. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 1, 2022 21:05:57 GMT
At the start of 1812 the US and Russia EACH receive 700 T-14 Armata tanks. All of their craftsmen receive manuals on how to maintain, repair and make more of these things. All of their militias/soldiers receive instruction manuals for the tanks. Obviously this results in a curbstomp on both Canada and Napoleon but I am more interested in the side-effects and long-term changes brought on in this scenario A modern tank will be much better than a horse-pulled artillery from that time in every possible way. However, new road-making, forest clearing and bridge making techniques are needed to better use the Armatas The Native Americans, Spain/Mexico and most of Eurasia are screwed unless they get off their asses and really adopt new technologies quickly. Nations all over the world will try to make tanks of their own. And do not know how to use them. All the manuals in the world mean nothing if there is no industrail supply chain to support the artifact. This means oil is first on the list. No fuel and no lube means a paperweight Besides the Armata is a lousy tank. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 1, 2022 21:11:30 GMT
At the start of 1812 the US and Russia EACH receive 700 T-14 Armata tanks. All of their craftsmen receive manuals on how to maintain, repair and make more of these things. All of their militias/soldiers receive instruction manuals for the tanks. Obviously this results in a curbstomp on both Canada and Napoleon but I am more interested in the side-effects and long-term changes brought on in this scenario A modern tank will be much better than a horse-pulled artillery from that time in every possible way. However, new road-making, forest clearing and bridge making techniques are needed to better use the Armatas The Native Americans, Spain/Mexico and most of Eurasia are screwed unless they get off their asses and really adopt new technologies quickly. Nations all over the world will try to make tanks of their own. We have a Frivolous ASB thread for these kind of things, also no spare parts for the tanks.
Nor fuel or ammo production. Plus no amount of plans would enable either of those nations to actually manage to build most new parts, especially things like optics and computing. Or even most of the metals and other components.
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 2, 2022 3:41:00 GMT
No fuel, no ammo, no lube, no rubber, no tools or even the materials to make the necessary tools. Russia doesn't even have basis steam engines in any significant way at this point, nor a large number of literate machinists.
Manuals to make more tanks? More than just a little silly. These aren't things that can be bashed out in a blacksmith's shop.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 2, 2022 5:00:03 GMT
No fuel, no ammo, no lube, no rubber, no tools or even the materials to make the necessary tools. Russia doesn't even have basis steam engines in any significant way at this point, nor a large number of literate machinists. Manuals to make more tanks? More than just a little silly. These aren't things that can be bashed out in a blacksmith's shop. And that is why it should belong in the Frivolous ASB thread. |
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Post by shadow007 on Nov 2, 2022 5:54:53 GMT
No fuel, no ammo, no lube, no rubber, no tools or even the materials to make the necessary tools. Russia doesn't even have basis steam engines in any significant way at this point, nor a large number of literate machinists. Manuals to make more tanks? More than just a little silly. These aren't things that can be bashed out in a blacksmith's shop. That is the point. The US, Russia and their enemies would be forced to start with WW1-esque tank designs while jumpstarting the Industrial Revolution! The Tank causes a technological arms race It's Canon and Machinegun also cause nations to change how they use infantry and artillery |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 2, 2022 6:57:36 GMT
That is not the point. The era in which these tanks get dropped, cannot scratch chrome steel with the soft nails that their steel makers could make. Ask this question, can those people without full access to developed metallurgy make such alloys or even sample or cut such metal? It would be like us trying to reverse engineer a mythical alien built space vehicle.that came from outside our solar system. Where would we start? |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 2, 2022 10:33:47 GMT
Even the cannon and machine guns are well beyond their capacity at the time, or even the capacity of the most advanced British industrial concerns of 1812.
The Industrial Revolution had already started at this point, but it couldn’t cope with the materials and level of advanced materials. If these were Mark I tanks, there would still be an issue, albeit not as crazy.
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 2, 2022 16:19:25 GMT
In order to get something out of this, let us consider what is the most advanced tech that an 1812 state could replicate?
I'd say that technology up until ~1830 doesn't represent a huge jump in what can be built and understood with both the tools and skill sets available. Once we get past that, we hit the point where industrialisation and the Industrial Revolution pressed down on the accelerator, leading the rapid increase in technology that pushed the cutting edge ever forward in new and larger leaps.
There are some exceptions to this, usually on the smaller scale. For example, give a Pattern 1853 Enfield rifled musket to a British gunsmith in 1812 wouldn't leave them utterly flabbergasted, but being able to comprehend and then replicate both the design and the percussion lock wouldn't simply be a matter of hours or days.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 2, 2022 18:02:11 GMT
If these were Mark I tanks, there would still be an issue, albeit not as crazy. Despite what the British claim that was not the first practixcal tractor. We had seen earlier Russian and British failures which had got stuck or were impossible to turn without track throw off the idler or drive wheels. Holt was the first to make a commercially successful and engineering sound agricultural or industrial mining version of a track laying machine that could move under its own power. The Holt was painfully slow and had an enormous turning circle. Now let me give you some background... Neither the British, the French or the Austrians were stupid. As soon as trench warfare showed up, General D'Estienne and the Churchill Admiralty Investigation Committee instantly looked at the American track laying technology as a possible method for crossing no man's land to increasxe the rate of movement to give machine gunners less time to chop up French and British infantry. The idea to get the machine in there into the enemy trenchs to kill the machine gunners was probably more British than French, since D'Estienne was more concerned about German artillery from what he saw, but the point of moving faster and with more agility and also cross trenches, which a Holt tractor could not do, was the main point I want you to consider. The investigators merely started with the Holt as a start point. They knew thay had to do much better to meet the conditions they faced in France in 1915. Given that, it was still this design that formed the initial basis of char d'assault research for the British and the French who immediately bought samples and tried to reverse engineer the Holt track laying system. They ran into problems. Patent infringement was not one of them, because they were desperate. They found the turning circle of a Holt too large, the weight of the tractor to track area flotation too heavy for the mud to float (Floatation is the correct term, since vehicles FLOAT on the earth when they exert ground pressure.), too low a coeffecient for traction in simulated Flanders mud they used for their tests and just too slow. The Holts sank and became stuck in place for both the French and the British. It can be said that the Admiraty Investigation Committee and Renault, independent of each other, actually invented track laying systems that were effective in climbing into and out of trenches or crossing them, and somethiong which could cross bogs something which the Holt system could not do and which this absurdity:  The absurdity. could not do either. So, we drop an Armata 14 into 1914 instead and ask ourselves the same questions the 1914-1916 era tank investigators and developers did. They would comprehend the Armata and understand what it was and could with the means they had, build a facsimile as to function. They would ask these questions of it as to your OP but with what these investigators knew they wanted. 1. Can it float? 2. Can it cross a trench? 3. Can it hold traction and not get stuck and SINK? 4. Will it run from A to B reliably? 4. Can we make it? Let me answer that for you in 2022 as we KNOW now. 1. On concrete and macadan roads we have seen it float. 2. No. 3. No. 4. Definitely no. 5. Why would we? It is a RUSSIAN tank, i. e. a piece of garbage. |
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Post by shadow007 on Nov 9, 2022 14:11:10 GMT
I doubt the White House or Moscow will be invaded this time around. Powerful machineguns and cannons would rip the Brits and French into pieces
Wouldn't people try to put 1812 cannons on wood/steel carriages?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 9, 2022 16:58:51 GMT
I doubt the White House or Moscow will be invaded this time around. Powerful machineguns and cannons would rip the Brits and French into pieces Wouldn't people try to put 1812 cannons on wood/steel carriages?
That assumes that the opposing forces come to where those vehicles are and the down-timers can get some aspect of them working. Definitely can't see them being available on the main front in the north - talking about Canada here - so the aggressors won't get any use out of them.
Ditto with Russia having some. Even if they can get some use out of them they need to get the French to come into range. Then be able to use them effectively. Which may or may not happen. Especially given the size of Russia - and to a lesser extent 1812 US a lot depends on where those things appear and how much if any use can be made of them.
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Post by shadow007 on Nov 24, 2022 18:09:31 GMT
I doubt the White House or Moscow will be invaded this time around. Powerful machineguns and cannons would rip the Brits and French into pieces Wouldn't people try to put 1812 cannons on wood/steel carriages?
That assumes that the opposing forces come to where those vehicles are and the down-timers can get some aspect of them working. Definitely can't see them being available on the main front in the north - talking about Canada here - so the aggressors won't get any use out of them.
Ditto with Russia having some. Even if they can get some use out of them they need to get the French to come into range. Then be able to use them effectively. Which may or may not happen. Especially given the size of Russia - and to a lesser extent 1812 US a lot depends on where those things appear and how much if any use can be made of them.
Wouldn't technology progress much faster in this Timeline? The basic principles of radio, tank chassis, tracks, cannons and automatic machineguns can be learned from observing and analyzing these tanks It wouldn't be immensely difficult to build a much more advanced artillery piece that uses WW1 type artillery shells. They can dissect a few tank shells. Texas, Mexico, Native Americans and Manifesr Destiny would be different since the US is more technologically advanced. Russia can expand west and east much easily too after Napoleon is defeated Army reforms would be implemented so that these new weapons would be used by soldiers more efficiently. Human wave tactics are less desirable in this scenario China and Korea are forced to adapt earlier since Russia is now a threat to both of them. Russia can force Japan to open up trading much earlier than the US did Ethiopia could benefit as they historically had good relations with Russia |
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