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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jun 21, 2024 8:06:54 GMT
I don't think the crew of the New Jersey would have much effect on making the US Navy a force on the seas in a practical sense. No one, not even the entire world put together, can build an iron ship at that point in time. None of them (probably) have skills that translate well to the 1770's to 1790's. None of them probably have the knowledge to invent the Bessemer process to start mass production of steel. And none of them have practical knowledge on how to build improved wooden ships. The engineering staff might be able to copy any particular aspect of the ship, given materials, but they are in the position of having to build the tools to recreate the processes to build the tools to build the tools to recreate a subcomponent of the ship. Yes, I know Fulton started only a couple decades later, and that steam engines were already a thing in mills in the UK, but what are you going to do? Go straight from single expansion simple steam engines to high pressure high temperature boilers and turbines? I do think the crew of the New Jersey would have much more of an effect on the founding fathers in a political sense. The crew does know a whole bunch of stuff and just being able to tell the founding fathers what "they had wrought" might be enough to convince the south to give up slavery much sooner and without 4 years of bloodshed. Showing the founding fathers what had ended up working and what had not might save them a fair bit. Depending on the exact date of arrival, the nascent US might be able to avoid the Articles of Confederation along with the Whiskey rebellion and Shay's rebellion. Depending on how eloquent they were, they might be able to convince the founding fathers of any number of things, including better treatment for the Indian and the black, and staying out of the war of 1812, assuming it happens. Perhaps education and women having the vote, as well? Having a 45,000 ton steel ship appear out of nowhere and say "Hey, we're from your future, and we're on your side" would certainly make the leaders of the revolution sit up and take notice. It also might make them put stuff in the constitution to prevent things that are normal in the modern world, but unthinkable to the 1780 era. Income tax, anyone? Belushi TD
The impact of ideas would be by far the greatest I suspect, both in the US and elsewhere. I'm not sure that it would involve a quick end to slavery, given how widespread it was at that point but hopefully end it earlier and with less suffering all around. A lot might also depend on the origins of the crew, both in terms of 'race', religion and sex as that would raise a lot of questions as well.
As far as ending slavery sooner it is worth keeping in mind that the cotton gin was in the 1790s. So, I'm not sure it is as ingrained as you may be thinking. Sure there would be pushback on ending slavery but what I would do is have it phase out over say ten years. If the year ends in 1783 then by 1793 the last slave is freed. We needn't of had a war if we just lived by what we stand for. All people are equal. We just need to keep in mind it's the 18th century so some things are going to impossible to get done. We may be able to end slavery, but I think it is impossible to give them the vote. Same with women voting. It's far too ahead of the time. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Jun 21, 2024 12:03:45 GMT
The impact of ideas would be by far the greatest I suspect, both in the US and elsewhere. I'm not sure that it would involve a quick end to slavery, given how widespread it was at that point but hopefully end it earlier and with less suffering all around. A lot might also depend on the origins of the crew, both in terms of 'race', religion and sex as that would raise a lot of questions as well.
As far as ending slavery sooner it is worth keeping in mind that the cotton gin was in the 1790s. So, I'm not sure it is as ingrained as you may be thinking. Sure there would be pushback on ending slavery but what I would do is have it phase out over say ten years. If the year ends in 1783 then by 1793 the last slave is freed. We needn't of had a war if we just lived by what we stand for. All people are equal. We just need to keep in mind it's the 18th century so some things are going to impossible to get done. We may be able to end slavery, but I think it is impossible to give them the vote. Same with women voting. It's far too ahead of the time.
True the cotton gin hasn't been invented yet but at this stage slavery is commonplace in much of the north as well as the central and southern states. IIRC Pennsylvania has rules for freeing slaves in their territory - or at least did during Washington's time as President which prompted him to regularly move his household out of Philadelphia to maintain hos ownership of his slaves and I think at least some of the New England area may have banned slavery by then but most other areas accept it as fairly commonplace.
Also as you say there will be limited on what the small numbers of UTers can do. Very likely they won't make any progress on female suffrage as you say, definitely not on homosexual rights and probably not on rights for the 'Indian' natives. All those areas are going to be controversial and its very likely that supporters of slavery are going to argue that giving way on one issue - i,e, slavery - is a foot in the door on the other matters. Also its not just the ownership of slaves but also the money made in shipping them which affects a fair number of merchants. Coupled with the idea of a sizeable number of free blacks asking for equal rights won't go down well among many people. Furthermore while the cotton gin hasn't been invented yet the UTers will know of it so it could easily be invested a few years earlier and would make a lot of people a hell of a lot of money.
I do think that the western slave trade and slavery in the Americas is likely to end earlier but I don't think it will be as fast as your suggesting. Its still likely to be about for at least a generation or two in the US, assuming that stays united which is probable but not necessarily certain - this could be a breaking point for the development from a loose federation into the OTL state and constitution. Hopefully it will also end quicker elsewhere but again that could be less than certain, especially if as a result of the changes France doesn't have the OTL revolution, which is likely to mean both it and Spain maintain their empires in the Americas. In fact without the revolutionary and Napoleonic wars and the resulting British blockade, which prompted development of sugar beet you could see the sugar plantations in the Americas staying very profitable for longer.
Its always difficult to say what perturbations can be generated by a change.
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Jun 21, 2024 12:08:49 GMT
The impact of ideas would be by far the greatest I suspect, both in the US and elsewhere. I'm not sure that it would involve a quick end to slavery, given how widespread it was at that point but hopefully end it earlier and with less suffering all around. A lot might also depend on the origins of the crew, both in terms of 'race', religion and sex as that would raise a lot of questions as well.
As far as ending slavery sooner it is worth keeping in mind that the cotton gin was in the 1790s. So, I'm not sure it is as ingrained as you may be thinking. Sure there would be pushback on ending slavery but what I would do is have it phase out over say ten years. If the year ends in 1783 then by 1793 the last slave is freed. We needn't of had a war if we just lived by what we stand for. All people are equal. We just need to keep in mind it's the 18th century so some things are going to impossible to get done. We may be able to end slavery, but I think it is impossible to give them the vote. Same with women voting. It's far too ahead of the time.
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