The Romanovs In Exile

[mspence]

The Romanovs were infamously killed during the revolution, but WI they'd managed to survive and go into exile, or even become part of a rump monarchy state?

[575]

I know King George 5 of Great Britain didn't want the Romanovs due to fears of Workers unrest.
Denmark didn't have such qualms concerning Dowager-Empress Maria Feodorovna/Dagmar and she lived post flight from Russia in Denmark.

[halferking]

War, political instability, anti-German sentiment and the Spectre of Revolution haunting the halls of the grand palaces of Europe made the Romanov name poison to the touch.

It would be an impossible feat for the Romanovs to escape. Yes, the more conservative members of the Duma had held out an olive branch to Nicholas II – go in to exile and let your son the Tsarevich take over with Grand Duke Michael acting as Regent until the boy came of age. This came to nought as the Petrograd Soviet had established a stranglehold on the country and it became clear that the soldiers and the railway workers were not loyal to the Tsar.

The Bolsheviks wanted to erase the Romanovs and hunted them down wherever they may be so any escape would have to be quick and clandestine. They would be destitute and powerless travelling through a hostile country not knowing who they could rely on or where they could receive safe sanctuary.

Where would they go?

[stevep]

   Ironically I wonder if an escape eastwards would be the best bet?  Siberia seems to have been a white stronghold and its the path to Japan.  Which that has been a recent enemy and still a rival its another conservative imperial state that would be appalled by the displacement - let alone as happened later murder - of an imperial family.  Also if things developed as OTL I could well see Japan seeking to establish a puppet imperial Russian state in the Russian Far east as a buffer to the Bolsheviks with the Romanovs as a suitable figurehead.

  In terms of the idea of Nicholas abdicated in favour of his son what I have read before is that he refused that because he didn't want to have his sickly son separated from the family and suggested the crown pass to Nicholas's brother Michael but that ran into some political issues, from Michael's wiki page.

Abdication of Nicholas II

On the afternoon of 15 March [O.S. 2 March] 1917, Emperor Nicholas II, under pressure from generals and Duma representatives, abdicated in favour of his son, Alexei, with Michael as Regent.[105] Later that evening, though, he reconsidered his decision. Alexei was gravely ill with haemophilia and Nicholas feared that if Alexei was emperor, he would be separated from his parents.[106] In a second abdication document, signed at 11.40 p.m. but marked as having been issued at 3.00 p.m., the time of the earlier one,[107] Nicholas II declared:

We have judged it right to abdicate the Throne of the Russian State and to lay down the Supreme Power. Not wishing to be parted from Our Beloved Son, We hand over Our Succession to Our Brother the Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich and Bless Him on his accession to the Throne.[108]

By early morning, Michael was proclaimed as "Emperor Michael II" to Russian troops and in cities throughout Russia, but his accession was not universally welcomed. While some units cheered and swore allegiance to the new emperor, others remained indifferent.[109] The newly formed Provisional Government had not agreed to Michael's succession.[110] When Michael awoke that morning, he discovered not only that his brother had abdicated in his favour, as Nicholas had not informed him previously, but also that a delegation from the Duma would visit him at Putyatina's apartment in a few hours' time.[111] The meeting with Duma President Rodzianko, the new Prime Minister Prince Lvov and other ministers, including Pavel Milyukov and Alexander Kerensky, lasted all morning.[112] Putyatina laid on a lunch, and in the afternoon two lawyers (Baron Nolde and Vladimir Nabokov) were called to the apartment to draft a manifesto for Michael to sign. The legal position was complicated, as the legitimacy of the government, whether Nicholas had the right to remove his son from the succession, and whether Michael actually was emperor, were all open to question.[113] After further discussion, and several drafts, the meeting settled on a declaration of conditional acceptance as an appropriate form of words.[114] In it, Michael deferred to the will of the people and acknowledged the Provisional Government as the de facto executive, but neither abdicated nor refused to accept the throne.[115] He wrote:

Inspired, in common with the whole people, by the belief that the welfare of our country must be set above everything else, I have taken the firm decision to assume the supreme power only if and when our great people, having elected by universal suffrage a Constituent Assembly to determine the form of government and lay down the fundamental law of the new Russian State, invest me with such power.
Calling upon them the blessing of God, I therefore request all the citizens of the Russian Empire to submit to the Provisional Government, established and invested with full authority by the Duma, until such time as the Constituent Assembly, elected within the shortest possible time by universal, direct, equal and secret suffrage, shall manifest the will of the people by deciding upon the new form of government.[116]

Commentators, ranging from Kerensky to French ambassador Maurice Paléologue, regarded Michael's action as noble and patriotic,[117] but Nicholas was appalled that Michael had "kowtowed to the Constituent Assembly" and called the manifesto "rubbish".[118]

The hopes of the monarchists that Michael might be able to assume the throne following the election of the Constituent Assembly were overtaken by events. His renunciation of the throne, though conditional, marked the end of the Tsarist regime in Russia. The Provisional Government had little effective power; real power was held by the Petrograd Soviet.[119]

  Its a possible what if that might have been if the Provisional government might have retained power but with their collapse and the coup by the Bolsheviks it all went to hell.

[575]

Jan 15, 2023 11:16:37 GMT stevep said:

   Ironically I wonder if an escape eastwards would be the best bet?  Siberia seems to have been a white stronghold and its the path to Japan.  Which that has been a recent enemy and still a rival its another conservative imperial state that would be appalled by the displacement - let alone as happened later murder - of an imperial family.  Also if things developed as OTL I could well see Japan seeking to establish a puppet imperial Russian state in the Russian Far east as a buffer to the Bolsheviks with the Romanovs as a suitable figurehead.

  In terms of the idea of Nicholas abdicated in favour of his son what I have read before is that he refused that because he didn't want to have his sickly son separated from the family and suggested the crown pass to Nicholas's brother Michael but that ran into some political issues, from Michael's wiki page.

Abdication of Nicholas II

On the afternoon of 15 March [O.S. 2 March] 1917, Emperor Nicholas II, under pressure from generals and Duma representatives, abdicated in favour of his son, Alexei, with Michael as Regent.[105] Later that evening, though, he reconsidered his decision. Alexei was gravely ill with haemophilia and Nicholas feared that if Alexei was emperor, he would be separated from his parents.[106] In a second abdication document, signed at 11.40 p.m. but marked as having been issued at 3.00 p.m., the time of the earlier one,[107] Nicholas II declared:

We have judged it right to abdicate the Throne of the Russian State and to lay down the Supreme Power. Not wishing to be parted from Our Beloved Son, We hand over Our Succession to Our Brother the Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich and Bless Him on his accession to the Throne.[108]

By early morning, Michael was proclaimed as "Emperor Michael II" to Russian troops and in cities throughout Russia, but his accession was not universally welcomed. While some units cheered and swore allegiance to the new emperor, others remained indifferent.[109] The newly formed Provisional Government had not agreed to Michael's succession.[110] When Michael awoke that morning, he discovered not only that his brother had abdicated in his favour, as Nicholas had not informed him previously, but also that a delegation from the Duma would visit him at Putyatina's apartment in a few hours' time.[111] The meeting with Duma President Rodzianko, the new Prime Minister Prince Lvov and other ministers, including Pavel Milyukov and Alexander Kerensky, lasted all morning.[112] Putyatina laid on a lunch, and in the afternoon two lawyers (Baron Nolde and Vladimir Nabokov) were called to the apartment to draft a manifesto for Michael to sign. The legal position was complicated, as the legitimacy of the government, whether Nicholas had the right to remove his son from the succession, and whether Michael actually was emperor, were all open to question.[113] After further discussion, and several drafts, the meeting settled on a declaration of conditional acceptance as an appropriate form of words.[114] In it, Michael deferred to the will of the people and acknowledged the Provisional Government as the de facto executive, but neither abdicated nor refused to accept the throne.[115] He wrote:

Inspired, in common with the whole people, by the belief that the welfare of our country must be set above everything else, I have taken the firm decision to assume the supreme power only if and when our great people, having elected by universal suffrage a Constituent Assembly to determine the form of government and lay down the fundamental law of the new Russian State, invest me with such power.
Calling upon them the blessing of God, I therefore request all the citizens of the Russian Empire to submit to the Provisional Government, established and invested with full authority by the Duma, until such time as the Constituent Assembly, elected within the shortest possible time by universal, direct, equal and secret suffrage, shall manifest the will of the people by deciding upon the new form of government.[116]

Commentators, ranging from Kerensky to French ambassador Maurice Paléologue, regarded Michael's action as noble and patriotic,[117] but Nicholas was appalled that Michael had "kowtowed to the Constituent Assembly" and called the manifesto "rubbish".[118]

The hopes of the monarchists that Michael might be able to assume the throne following the election of the Constituent Assembly were overtaken by events. His renunciation of the throne, though conditional, marked the end of the Tsarist regime in Russia. The Provisional Government had little effective power; real power was held by the Petrograd Soviet.[119]

  Its a possible what if that might have been if the Provisional government might have retained power but with their collapse and the coup by the Bolsheviks it all went to hell.

Going East - what a great idea. Japan setting up the Tsar in Far East - 'nother great idea With Japanese Intervention Troops in the FE there's even somebody to look after the Family and King George will know his cousin to be in Imperial hands.

Perhaps even summer holidays in Denmark as prior to the Great War to visit Granma - well now I got carried away.

[TheRomanSlayer]

Yugoslavia could also be a good place for the Romanovs to stay in exile. Much of the White emigre movement had actually stayed in Yugoslavia IOTL, including Wrangel.

[halferking]

Jan 15, 2023 11:16:37 GMT stevep said:

   Ironically I wonder if an escape eastwards would be the best bet?  Siberia seems to have been a white stronghold and its the path to Japan.  Which that has been a recent enemy and still a rival its another conservative imperial state that would be appalled by the displacement - let alone as happened later murder - of an imperial family.  Also if things developed as OTL I could well see Japan seeking to establish a puppet imperial Russian state in the Russian Far east as a buffer to the Bolsheviks with the Romanovs as a suitable figurehead.

  In terms of the idea of Nicholas abdicated in favour of his son what I have read before is that he refused that because he didn't want to have his sickly son separated from the family and suggested the crown pass to Nicholas's brother Michael but that ran into some political issues, from Michael's wiki page.

Abdication of Nicholas II

On the afternoon of 15 March [O.S. 2 March] 1917, Emperor Nicholas II, under pressure from generals and Duma representatives, abdicated in favour of his son, Alexei, with Michael as Regent.[105] Later that evening, though, he reconsidered his decision. Alexei was gravely ill with haemophilia and Nicholas feared that if Alexei was emperor, he would be separated from his parents.[106] In a second abdication document, signed at 11.40 p.m. but marked as having been issued at 3.00 p.m., the time of the earlier one,[107] Nicholas II declared:

We have judged it right to abdicate the Throne of the Russian State and to lay down the Supreme Power. Not wishing to be parted from Our Beloved Son, We hand over Our Succession to Our Brother the Grand Duke Michael Aleksandrovich and Bless Him on his accession to the Throne.[108]

By early morning, Michael was proclaimed as "Emperor Michael II" to Russian troops and in cities throughout Russia, but his accession was not universally welcomed. While some units cheered and swore allegiance to the new emperor, others remained indifferent.[109] The newly formed Provisional Government had not agreed to Michael's succession.[110] When Michael awoke that morning, he discovered not only that his brother had abdicated in his favour, as Nicholas had not informed him previously, but also that a delegation from the Duma would visit him at Putyatina's apartment in a few hours' time.[111] The meeting with Duma President Rodzianko, the new Prime Minister Prince Lvov and other ministers, including Pavel Milyukov and Alexander Kerensky, lasted all morning.[112] Putyatina laid on a lunch, and in the afternoon two lawyers (Baron Nolde and Vladimir Nabokov) were called to the apartment to draft a manifesto for Michael to sign. The legal position was complicated, as the legitimacy of the government, whether Nicholas had the right to remove his son from the succession, and whether Michael actually was emperor, were all open to question.[113] After further discussion, and several drafts, the meeting settled on a declaration of conditional acceptance as an appropriate form of words.[114] In it, Michael deferred to the will of the people and acknowledged the Provisional Government as the de facto executive, but neither abdicated nor refused to accept the throne.[115] He wrote:

Inspired, in common with the whole people, by the belief that the welfare of our country must be set above everything else, I have taken the firm decision to assume the supreme power only if and when our great people, having elected by universal suffrage a Constituent Assembly to determine the form of government and lay down the fundamental law of the new Russian State, invest me with such power.
Calling upon them the blessing of God, I therefore request all the citizens of the Russian Empire to submit to the Provisional Government, established and invested with full authority by the Duma, until such time as the Constituent Assembly, elected within the shortest possible time by universal, direct, equal and secret suffrage, shall manifest the will of the people by deciding upon the new form of government.[116]

Commentators, ranging from Kerensky to French ambassador Maurice Paléologue, regarded Michael's action as noble and patriotic,[117] but Nicholas was appalled that Michael had "kowtowed to the Constituent Assembly" and called the manifesto "rubbish".[118]

The hopes of the monarchists that Michael might be able to assume the throne following the election of the Constituent Assembly were overtaken by events. His renunciation of the throne, though conditional, marked the end of the Tsarist regime in Russia. The Provisional Government had little effective power; real power was held by the Petrograd Soviet.[119]

  Its a possible what if that might have been if the Provisional government might have retained power but with their collapse and the coup by the Bolsheviks it all went to hell.

All route out of Russia were dangerous. By 1918 Bolshevik power extended to the eastern city of Yekaterinburg so travel trough their territory was a huge risk especially since it seems most political refugees were fleeing north to Murmansk – a city that was quickly descending into chaos.
Nicholas and his family’s journey would be arduous avoiding the cities and the railway line. If they’re successful, then they would have to reach Omsk and then travel onward. Siberia was under White control. If the train were available, they could use that to reach Vladivostok. What would they do when they got there is another matter?
Nicholas was without power and had nothing to offer the Japanese.
Would there be any reason to install him as a figure head of a puppet state?

[stevep]

Jan 15, 2023 23:20:14 GMT halferking said:

Jan 15, 2023 11:16:37 GMT stevep said:

   Ironically I wonder if an escape eastwards would be the best bet?  Siberia seems to have been a white stronghold and its the path to Japan.  Which that has been a recent enemy and still a rival its another conservative imperial state that would be appalled by the displacement - let alone as happened later murder - of an imperial family.  Also if things developed as OTL I could well see Japan seeking to establish a puppet imperial Russian state in the Russian Far east as a buffer to the Bolsheviks with the Romanovs as a suitable figurehead.

  In terms of the idea of Nicholas abdicated in favour of his son what I have read before is that he refused that because he didn't want to have his sickly son separated from the family and suggested the crown pass to Nicholas's brother Michael but that ran into some political issues, from Michael's wiki page.

  Its a possible what if that might have been if the Provisional government might have retained power but with their collapse and the coup by the Bolsheviks it all went to hell.

All route out of Russia were dangerous. By 1918 Bolshevik power extended to the eastern city of Yekaterinburg so travel trough their territory was a huge risk especially since it seems most political refugees were fleeing north to Murmansk – a city that was quickly descending into chaos.
Nicholas and his family’s journey would be arduous avoiding the cities and the railway line. If they’re successful, then they would have to reach Omsk and then travel onward. Siberia was under White control. If the train were available, they could use that to reach Vladivostok. What would they do when they got there is another matter?
Nicholas was without power and had nothing to offer the Japanese.
Would there be any reason to install him as a figure head of a puppet state?

  I was thinking of when the empire 1st fell and he abdicated, before the Bolshevik coup with possibly Japan offering him a home in exile so the family would get to safety before things get too dangerous for them.

  Well with the collapse of the Provisional Government and the Bolshevik coup he could retract his abdication and claim to the the natural leader of white forces.  Although whether this would actually be a benefit or handicap for the white would be unclear but it might seem attractive to some.  Also it would give any Japanese puppet state a vernier of respectability in at least some areas of the world.  Of course how well Nicholas and his family would fit in with Japanese designs could be another issue.

[halferking]

Jan 16, 2023 16:49:10 GMT stevep said:

Jan 15, 2023 23:20:14 GMT halferking said:

All route out of Russia were dangerous. By 1918 Bolshevik power extended to the eastern city of Yekaterinburg so travel trough their territory was a huge risk especially since it seems most political refugees were fleeing north to Murmansk – a city that was quickly descending into chaos.
Nicholas and his family’s journey would be arduous avoiding the cities and the railway line. If they’re successful, then they would have to reach Omsk and then travel onward. Siberia was under White control. If the train were available, they could use that to reach Vladivostok. What would they do when they got there is another matter?
Nicholas was without power and had nothing to offer the Japanese.
Would there be any reason to install him as a figure head of a puppet state?

  I was thinking of when the empire 1st fell and he abdicated, before the Bolshevik coup with possibly Japan offering him a home in exile so the family would get to safety before things get too dangerous for them.

  Well with the collapse of the Provisional Government and the Bolshevik coup he could retract his abdication and claim to the the natural leader of white forces.  Although whether this would actually be a benefit or handicap for the white would be unclear but it might seem attractive to some.  Also it would give any Japanese puppet state a vernier of respectability in at least some areas of the world.  Of course how well Nicholas and his family would fit in with Japanese designs could be another issue.

A disastrous war with Japan in 1904, 1905 Bloody Sunday when protestors descended on the Winter Palace and were gunned down by Imperial guards, the humiliation of World War I and years of pogroms turned Nicholas II into the boogey man so Japan may object to offering Nicholas sanctuary, but they may extend it to his family.

Alexandra Feodorovna, Tsarina of Russia, was the daughter of Princess Alice, the 2nd dau. of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, and her father Louis IX, Grand Duke of Hessen-Darmstadt so it could be that London could ask Tokyo to provide sanctuary to the family and may be Nicholas II. This would be a compromise for George V. If Japan refuse to accept Nicholas but agree to accept his wife and children there would be no focal point in Great Britain for socialists to hate on. Yes Alix was of German birth and that might prove an issue for her should she arrive in Great Britain, but given George V effort to rebrand the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to the House of Windsor I don’t think there would be too much for them to launch a PR campaign to win the British people over to accepting Alice Victoria.

From what limited research I have done yes some ‘Whites’ were Tsarist, but the White Armies were politically and geographically disparate. I can’t see Nicholas being able to rely on White support – the people hated Nicholas and if the Whites hoped to govern, should they be successful against the Reds, they would need to secure the support of the country.