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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 21, 2023 18:47:27 GMT
As someone with Jewish ancestry this topic does interest me somewhat. For better or worse (depending on where you stand with the Arab-Israeli conflict), the state of Israel emerged in 1948 after declaring independence from Britain and survived the War of 1948 against its Arab neighbors. However, what if Israel became stillborn after being defeated in the 1948 War or if for some other reason plans for a Jewish state in Israel fell apart after the Second World War or never came to full fruition? What would be the impact of no Israel after the Holocaust be on the Jewish religion and what would happen to the Jewish people (such as where they would go)? Regarding the latter I've seen many say the United States but anti-Semitism was arguably at its peak in the USA after WW2 and the immigration quotas only started being eased in 1952, four years after the establishment of Israel. To be clear I condemn all of the atrocities that have taken place as a result of this conflict.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 22, 2023 0:35:11 GMT
As someone with Jewish ancestry this topic does interest me somewhat. For better or worse (depending on where you stand with the Arab-Israeli conflict), the state of Israel emerged in 1948 after declaring independence from Britain and survived the War of 1948 against its Arab neighbors. However, what if Israel became stillborn after being defeated in the 1948 War or if for some other reason plans for a Jewish state in Israel fell apart after the Second World War or never came to full fruition? What would be the impact of no Israel after the Holocaust be on the Jewish religion and what would happen to the Jewish people (such as where they would go)? Regarding the latter I've seen many say the United States but anti-Semitism was arguably at its peak in the USA after WW2 and the immigration quotas only started being eased in 1952, four years after the establishment of Israel. To be clear I condemn all of the atrocities that have taken place as a result of this conflict. I'm not sure how a stillborn Israel would have an effect on the Middle East, given that the Holocaust was a recent memory. The Arab nations that fought Israel would be at a loss as to what to do with the large numbers of Jews that are residing within what was then Mandate Palestine. There might be enormous pressure from the international community to have Palestine become a federal state, with an Arab and Jewish entity being formed, though the Arabs would be the dominant power within a federalized Palestine. I would suspect that Jerusalem would become a separate district, while an autonomous Jewish entity would be centered around either Haifa or Tel Aviv, while Palestine proper would have Ramallah as its capital. |
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gillan1220
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I've been depressed recently. Slow replies coming in the next few days.
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Post by gillan1220 on Mar 22, 2023 17:03:12 GMT
The scenario of the Anglo/American - Nazi War has Israel not existing because Germany manages to defeat the Soviets in 1943. The war drags on to 1960 (after a brief "cool down" from 1947 to 1954) and by the time it ends, there are too few Jews to win the referendum.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 22, 2023 19:39:00 GMT
Don't know whether you know "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". In this book, there's no Israel either, so the US leases the Alaska panhandle to the Jews. Yes, it means the land will return to the US after the turn of the (Christian) millennium. Not sure how much sense this makes...
But I guess you were talking about TLs without any Jewish state?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 22, 2023 19:50:32 GMT
Don't know whether you know "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". In this book, there's no Israel either, so the US leases the Alaska panhandle to the Jews. Yes, it means the land will return to the US after the turn of the (Christian) millennium. Not sure how much sense this makes... But I guess you were talking about TLs without any Jewish state? There is always these places for a ALT Israel. Map: A land for the Jews (1938) |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 22, 2023 22:53:59 GMT
On the other hand, there might be a stronger case for the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the USSR surviving, but this would require the earlier death of Stalin, and preventing the event that led to the Doctor’s Plot. A Jew friendly Soviet leader would then push for more settlement of the surviving Jews in the Middle East to the USSR’s JAO. Unfortunately, the trade off for this would be a slightly stronger anti semitism in the US. As there is no Israel that exist, the US would maintain their alliance with the Arab world.
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 23, 2023 2:39:58 GMT
The scenario of the Anglo/American - Nazi War has Israel not existing because Germany manages to defeat the Soviets in 1943. The war drags on to 1960 (after a brief "cool down" from 1947 to 1954) and by the time it ends, there are too few Jews to win the referendum. Not quite the scenario I was looking at since I was aiming for a post-Holocaust POD (1945 or later) or when World War II ended IOTL. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 23, 2023 2:44:00 GMT
Don't know whether you know "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". In this book, there's no Israel either, so the US leases the Alaska panhandle to the Jews. Yes, it means the land will return to the US after the turn of the (Christian) millennium. Not sure how much sense this makes... But I guess you were talking about TLs without any Jewish state? There is always these places for a ALT Israel. Map: A land for the Jews (1938)I guess the real question in that case would be if it's too late. With a POD between 1945 and 1948 Palestine would still be on most Jewish refugees' minds. I don't think any of these were seriously considered by the Jews or the people in those countries (ie the Sitka and Kimberley Plans being shot down by a large margin). If Israel loses the War of 1948 it might be too late for any of these to be considered as an alternative Jewish state. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 23, 2023 2:46:15 GMT
Don't know whether you know "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". In this book, there's no Israel either, so the US leases the Alaska panhandle to the Jews. Yes, it means the land will return to the US after the turn of the (Christian) millennium. Not sure how much sense this makes... But I guess you were talking about TLs without any Jewish state? With a POD from 1945 until (more likely) 1948 I don't think it's likely any Jewish state would be created in the event of a stillborn Israel. Then again that's just my take on the matter and I could be wrong. There just wasn't enough willpower at that time IIRC. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 23, 2023 4:12:17 GMT
I had to have a laugh at the notion of fitting 5 million settlers in Outback South Australia, all above Goyder's Line. It does reflect a lack of a clue of the world beyond America. :lol en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goyder%27s_Line |
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 23, 2023 20:01:14 GMT
Meanwhile I expect the future of the Jews and Judaism as a whole to be quite bleak ITTL, assuming that the majority or all of the Jews in Palestine and the Middle East are expelled from the area if the leaders of the Arab World decide to go through with it. I say that because without Israel I’m honestly not sure who would open their doors to Jewish refugees on a large scale If anyone at all.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 25, 2023 19:38:20 GMT
Meanwhile I expect the future of the Jews and Judaism as a whole to be quite bleak ITTL, assuming that the majority or all of the Jews in Palestine and the Middle East are expelled from the area if the leaders of the Arab World decide to go through with it. I say that because without Israel I’m honestly not sure who would open their doors to Jewish refugees on a large scale If anyone at all. Some people have suggested to give the Jews parts of Nazi Germany (East Prussia? Schleswig-Holstein?). Makes sense, after all the Nazis wanted to eradicate all the Jews. But in the long run, I have a bad feeling about this: Just imagine new nazis attacking (if only verbally) the Jewish state and demanding Germans lands back! - Also, the Jews may not like staying in the country which tried to kill them. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 25, 2023 19:53:48 GMT
Meanwhile I expect the future of the Jews and Judaism as a whole to be quite bleak ITTL, assuming that the majority or all of the Jews in Palestine and the Middle East are expelled from the area if the leaders of the Arab World decide to go through with it. I say that because without Israel I’m honestly not sure who would open their doors to Jewish refugees on a large scale If anyone at all. Some people have suggested to give the Jews parts of Nazi Germany (East Prussia? Schleswig-Holstein?). Makes sense, after all the Nazis wanted to eradicate all the Jews. But in the long run, I have a bad feeling about this: Just imagine new nazis attacking (if only verbally) the Jewish state and demanding Germans lands back! - Also, the Jews may not like staying in the country which tried to kill them. For East Prussia ore Schleswig-Holstein any Jewish states needs the backing of the Soviet Union, they already have their failed Jewish Autonomous Oblast exmperiment. |
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Post by diamondstorm on Mar 25, 2023 21:17:43 GMT
Meanwhile I expect the future of the Jews and Judaism as a whole to be quite bleak ITTL, assuming that the majority or all of the Jews in Palestine and the Middle East are expelled from the area if the leaders of the Arab World decide to go through with it. I say that because without Israel I’m honestly not sure who would open their doors to Jewish refugees on a large scale If anyone at all. Some people have suggested to give the Jews parts of Nazi Germany (East Prussia? Schleswig-Holstein?). Makes sense, after all the Nazis wanted to eradicate all the Jews. But in the long run, I have a bad feeling about this: Just imagine new nazis attacking (if only verbally) the Jewish state and demanding Germans lands back! - Also, the Jews may not like staying in the country which tried to kill them. The Jews would certainly not want to have a state next to a country that annihilated almost 2/3 of its European population and Poland and the USSR weren’t particularly feeling warm towards the Jews either so that rules out both of those possibilities. I also don’t think anyone would want to have their land given up for the Jews in 1948/49. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 25, 2023 22:03:21 GMT
Some people have suggested to give the Jews parts of Nazi Germany (East Prussia? Schleswig-Holstein?). Makes sense, after all the Nazis wanted to eradicate all the Jews. But in the long run, I have a bad feeling about this: Just imagine new nazis attacking (if only verbally) the Jewish state and demanding Germans lands back! - Also, the Jews may not like staying in the country which tried to kill them. For East Prussia ore Schleswig-Holstein any Jewish states needs the backing of the Soviet Union, they already have their failed Jewish Autonomous Oblast exmperiment. East Prussia OK, but S-H? As long as it's in a western Allied occupation zone, they can do it.
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