A nine-state solution for post-WW2 Germany

[Max Sinister]

This idea is inspired by this TL by a German AltHist wiki user (not me this time): A Three-State Solution

Quote:

The goal was to achieve a national consciousness and national pride for every of the newly founded states, because the concept of a unified Germany was seen as a major factor for the outbreak of the World Wars. Other terms dictated to the new states were:

• No national flag is allowed to have the combination black-red-gold or black-white-red.
  • Display of said flags is banned
  • No state is allowed to have the word "German" or "Germany" in its name

In my Version, there'd be the following States:

* Hanseland (Hanse cities, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, the part of Pomerania which doesn't go to Poland, and the North of Lower Saxony with the whole coast)
* Brandenburg (minus the south [borders of 1813], plus the Altmark and Berlin of course)
* Greater Saxony (not just borders of 1813, but also Thuringia, south of Saxony-Anhalt up to and incl. Anhalt, possibly Lower Silesia)
* Phalia (Westphalia and the south of Lower Saxony with the city of Hanover)
* Rhineland (incl. Saarland)
* Hesse-Palatinate (Bundesland Hesse, Rhenish Hesse, Palatinate, Baden's Kurpfalz)
* Alemannia (Baden w/o Kurpfalz, Württemberg, Bavarian Swabia)
* Franconia
* Old Bavaria-Austria

I'll have to make a map one day. Also, there's the question: Using the Oder-Neisse border, or add at least parts of Pomerania and Silesia?

[lordroel]

Apr 15, 2023 19:19:32 GMT Max Sinister said:

This idea is inspired by this TL by a German AltHist wiki user (not me this time): A Three-State Solution

Quote:

The goal was to achieve a national consciousness and national pride for every of the newly founded states, because the concept of a unified Germany was seen as a major factor for the outbreak of the World Wars. Other terms dictated to the new states were:

• No national flag is allowed to have the combination black-red-gold or black-white-red.
  • Display of said flags is banned
  • No state is allowed to have the word "German" or "Germany" in its name

In my Version, there'd be the following States:

* Hanseland (Hanse cities, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, the part of Pomerania which doesn't go to Poland, and the North of Lower Saxony with the whole coast)

Hanseland, sounds like a amusement park somewhere in Germany.

[Max Sinister]

Apr 15, 2023 19:24:06 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 15, 2023 19:19:32 GMT Max Sinister said:

This idea is inspired by this TL by a German AltHist wiki user (not me this time): A Three-State Solution

Quote:

In my Version, there'd be the following States:

* Hanseland (Hanse cities, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, the part of Pomerania which doesn't go to Poland, and the North of Lower Saxony with the whole coast)

Hanseland, sounds like a amusement park somewhere in Germany.

Heh. Well, it's named after the Hanseatic League. What else.

[lordroel]

Apr 15, 2023 20:52:47 GMT Max Sinister said:

Apr 15, 2023 19:24:06 GMT lordroel said:

Hanseland, sounds like a amusement park somewhere in Germany.

Heh. Well, it's named after the Hanseatic League. What else.

Could one ore is one a monarchy.

[Max Sinister]

Apr 16, 2023 0:18:16 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 15, 2023 20:52:47 GMT Max Sinister said:

Heh. Well, it's named after the Hanseatic League. What else.

Could one ore is one a monarchy.

The guy who had the idea for the three-state solution had one of the three states ("Westphalia", that is the nothern half of the FRG) became a kingdom under the Hohenzollern (I think), but I don't know how realistic that'd be. Bavaria and Austria may tend to monarchy most - but if they're united? Which dynasty should get the honor??

[lordroel]

Apr 16, 2023 1:50:18 GMT Max Sinister said:

Apr 16, 2023 0:18:16 GMT lordroel said:

Could one ore is one a monarchy.

The guy who had the idea for the three-state solution had one of the three states ("Westphalia", that is the nothern half of the FRG) became a kingdom under the Hohenzollern (I think), but I don't know how realistic that'd be. Bavaria and Austria may tend to monarchy most - but if they're united? Which dynasty should get the honor??

A Hohenzollern, the same house that Wilhelm II comes from, not a good idea, there are plenty of houses that can supply a new king.

[Max Sinister]

Apr 16, 2023 7:12:43 GMT lordroel said:

Apr 16, 2023 1:50:18 GMT Max Sinister said:

The guy who had the idea for the three-state solution had one of the three states ("Westphalia", that is the nothern half of the FRG) became a kingdom under the Hohenzollern (I think), but I don't know how realistic that'd be. Bavaria and Austria may tend to monarchy most - but if they're united? Which dynasty should get the honor??

A Hohenzollern, the same house that Wilhelm II comes from, not a good idea, there are plenty of houses that can supply a new king.

Well, the Bavarians & Austrians are the last people on Earth who'd give the throne to a Hohenzollern. No need to worry about that.

[lordroel]

Apr 16, 2023 7:14:03 GMT Max Sinister said:

Apr 16, 2023 7:12:43 GMT lordroel said:

A Hohenzollern, the same house that Wilhelm II comes from, not a good idea, there are plenty of houses that can supply a new king.

Well, the Bavarians & Austrians are the last people on Earth who'd give the throne to a Hohenzollern. No need to worry about that.

Well in the Three-State Solution Bavaria is now American controlled, so doubt they are going to put a Wittelsbach on the throne and Austria the same.

[stevep]

Apr 15, 2023 19:19:32 GMT Max Sinister said:

This idea is inspired by this TL by a German AltHist wiki user (not me this time): A Three-State Solution

Quote:

The goal was to achieve a national consciousness and national pride for every of the newly founded states, because the concept of a unified Germany was seen as a major factor for the outbreak of the World Wars. Other terms dictated to the new states were:

• No national flag is allowed to have the combination black-red-gold or black-white-red.
  • Display of said flags is banned
  • No state is allowed to have the word "German" or "Germany" in its name

In my Version, there'd be the following States:

* Hanseland (Hanse cities, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, the part of Pomerania which doesn't go to Poland, and the North of Lower Saxony with the whole coast)
* Brandenburg (minus the south [borders of 1813], plus the Altmark and Berlin of course)
* Greater Saxony (not just borders of 1813, but also Thuringia, south of Saxony-Anhalt up to and incl. Anhalt, possibly Lower Silesia)
* Phalia (Westphalia and the south of Lower Saxony with the city of Hanover)
* Rhineland (incl. Saarland)
* Hesse-Palatinate (Bundesland Hesse, Rhenish Hesse, Palatinate, Baden's Kurpfalz)
* Alemannia (Baden w/o Kurpfalz, Württemberg, Bavarian Swabia)
* Franconia
* Old Bavaria-Austria

I'll have to make a map one day. Also, there's the question: Using the Oder-Neisse border, or add at least parts of Pomerania and Silesia?

  Not too sure of the borders with a map but that sounds a real mess.  If their not allowed some degree of economic co-operation, possibly including some sort of free trade area their likely to be quite impoverished as well.  I also think the idea of banning the word German/Germany in the title of any would be pretty pointless and also likely to store up resentment among much of the population which could well cause problems further down the line.  Its pretty much the banning of a national identity which is going to look very foolish and unfair to even the bulk of the victors a generation or two down the line.  Too similar to the 'war guilt' cause in 1919.

[lordroel]

Had the trolls do some digging, seems i made 8 years ago a thread called: A map of Germany carved amongst her neighbors

But in that thread there was a link to: How Germany Was Divided: A History of Partition Plans wich talked The Allies looking at various options before settling on the east-west split that defined the Cold War.

[575]

The idea of merging Austria to ANY German state is a violation of Versailles!

That being said a Hanseland would control all im- and exports by ship being the coastal strip in the North.

Borders in the East would depend on how far west the German('s) border('s) is/are pushed. Which of course will decide who gets Upper Silesia.

A Map would be very nice to judge from.

[Max Sinister]

Apr 19, 2023 7:30:54 GMT 575 said:

The idea of merging Austria to ANY German state is a violation of Versailles!

That being said a Hanseland would control all im- and exports by ship being the coastal strip in the North.

Borders in the East would depend on how far west the German('s) border('s) is/are pushed. Which of course will decide who gets Upper Silesia.

A Map would be very nice to judge from.

1. The Allies deliberately chose to ignore Versailles several times before WW2.

2. Think this would give them too much power? At least some German lands wouldn't depend on them, since the Rhine's mouth is on Dutch territory and the Danube is a different thing too.

3. Upper Silesia with its coal would go to Poland in any case.

4. Yeah, I know. But there are still decisions to make, and I've never been the greatest mapmaker.

[Max Sinister]

Apr 16, 2023 14:55:29 GMT stevep said:

Apr 15, 2023 19:19:32 GMT Max Sinister said:

This idea is inspired by this TL by a German AltHist wiki user (not me this time): A Three-State Solution

Quote:

In my Version, there'd be the following States:

* Hanseland (Hanse cities, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, the part of Pomerania which doesn't go to Poland, and the North of Lower Saxony with the whole coast)
* Brandenburg (minus the south [borders of 1813], plus the Altmark and Berlin of course)
* Greater Saxony (not just borders of 1813, but also Thuringia, south of Saxony-Anhalt up to and incl. Anhalt, possibly Lower Silesia)
* Phalia (Westphalia and the south of Lower Saxony with the city of Hanover)
* Rhineland (incl. Saarland)
* Hesse-Palatinate (Bundesland Hesse, Rhenish Hesse, Palatinate, Baden's Kurpfalz)
* Alemannia (Baden w/o Kurpfalz, Württemberg, Bavarian Swabia)
* Franconia
* Old Bavaria-Austria

I'll have to make a map one day. Also, there's the question: Using the Oder-Neisse border, or add at least parts of Pomerania and Silesia?

  Not too sure of the borders with a map but that sounds a real mess.  If their not allowed some degree of economic co-operation, possibly including some sort of free trade area their likely to be quite impoverished as well.  I also think the idea of banning the word German/Germany in the title of any would be pretty pointless and also likely to store up resentment among much of the population which could well cause problems further down the line.  Its pretty much the banning of a national identity which is going to look very foolish and unfair to even the bulk of the victors a generation or two down the line.  Too similar to the 'war guilt' cause in 1919.

I didn't put that much thought into the economy of TTL. But as long as there is a Soviet block, cooperation of free Europe is a must anyway.

And identities... when the Kaiserreich was founded, it was actually the liberals being its biggest supporters, while the conservatives preferred particularism, whether Prussian, Bavarian, Hannoverian, or whatever.

It's tricky... even if you outlawed the word "German", or even have the schools teach the dialectal form now, the dialect continuum still would be a thing. Not to mention history. It had been suggested to revert the history from 1866-1945... the question is just how.

But there'd be a different question as well: More German nations means more squabbling, but potentially more voting power in supranational organisations (EEC, UN, NATO). No matter whether you prefer Germany strong or weak: What is better now?

[575]

Apr 20, 2023 2:34:00 GMT Max Sinister said:

Apr 19, 2023 7:30:54 GMT 575 said:

The idea of merging Austria to ANY German state is a violation of Versailles!

That being said a Hanseland would control all im- and exports by ship being the coastal strip in the North.

Borders in the East would depend on how far west the German('s) border('s) is/are pushed. Which of course will decide who gets Upper Silesia.

A Map would be very nice to judge from.

1. The Allies deliberately chose to ignore Versailles several times before WW2.

2. Think this would give them too much power? At least some German lands wouldn't depend on them, since the Rhine's mouth is on Dutch territory and the Danube is a different thing too.

3. Upper Silesia with its coal would go to Poland in any case.

4. Yeah, I know. But there are still decisions to make, and I've never been the greatest mapmaker.

1. -

2. Economic power - Rotterdam isn't operational yet and Danube in Soviet control. If the Wirtschaftwunder is delayed due to worse economics (and You imply so in previous post) it WILL have implications.

3. Thanks - expected that but wasn't obvious

4. No pressure