H. G. Wells - War of the Worlds (1897) in Real Time

[stevep]

Jun 27, 2023 10:00:49 GMT gillan1220 said:

Jun 27, 2023 9:55:51 GMT stevep said:

  Pretty much.  The story is often seen as a case of Wells seeking to highlight the excesses of colonialism around the world by western powers.  Its a bit before the Boer's started the 2nd Boer war with their attack on the British Cape and Rhodesian colonies in 1899 but they might seek to advance that here given Britain's problems. 

1897-1898 was the period when colonialism was about to reach its end. The Philippines, Cuba, and Puerto Rico would revolt from Spain. Further out east, Japan was a rising power. Japan and the United States almost clashed in Hawaii, as the U.S. was slowly expanding into the Pacific.

It's an interesting analogy to how the Martians are the European colonizers themselves.

  That was basically the point of Well's story, although he did allow for disease as an escape clause, like in much of the tropic areas before medicine advanced enough to strip such areas of their protection.

[gillan1220]

Jun 27, 2023 10:17:40 GMT stevep said:

Jun 27, 2023 10:00:49 GMT gillan1220 said:

1897-1898 was the period when colonialism was about to reach its end. The Philippines, Cuba, and Puerto Rico would revolt from Spain. Further out east, Japan was a rising power. Japan and the United States almost clashed in Hawaii, as the U.S. was slowly expanding into the Pacific.

It's an interesting analogy to how the Martians are the European colonizers themselves.

  That was basically the point of Well's story, although he did allow for disease as an escape clause, like in much of the tropic areas before medicine advanced enough to strip such areas of their protection.

That is correct.

In fact, during the Philippine-American War (1898-1901) 1,500 Americans were killed in action, while nearly twice that number succumbed to disease such as dengue and malaria. Americans soldiers faced the same conditions when they landed in Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yes, tropical diseases killed more Americans than the bullets and bolos of the Filipinos.

I'm guessing the British had the same dilemma in their African and Asian colonies as well.

[lordroel]

Jun 27, 2023 9:51:43 GMT stevep said:

   Just noticed on the most recent post on the site, for Sunday 27th

With the news that the Martian’s are dead, the army moves south to restore order, even as Queen Victoria acts to seize and protect all Martian artifacts by establishing #RotchWood to take ownership of all property previously belonging to the Martians.

  I'm crap at anagrams but even I get that one.  Obviously at lead one Doctor fan in the people producing the story.

Was thinking it as well, bit different name but both where created by Queen Victoria.

[stevep]

Jun 27, 2023 12:16:55 GMT gillan1220 said:

Jun 27, 2023 10:17:40 GMT stevep said:

  That was basically the point of Well's story, although he did allow for disease as an escape clause, like in much of the tropic areas before medicine advanced enough to strip such areas of their protection.

That is correct.

In fact, during the Philippine-American War (1898-1901) 1,500 Americans were killed in action, while nearly twice that number succumbed to disease such as dengue and malaria. Americans soldiers faced the same conditions when they landed in Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yes, tropical diseases killed more Americans than the bullets and bolos of the Filipinos.

I'm guessing the British had the same dilemma in their African and Asian colonies as well.

  Even in European theatres up until at least WWI disease generally inflicted more casualties than fighting.  Even with WWI you then had the great flu pandemic which killed more people around the world than the entire war.  Again with the war against Japan, despite improved medication and knowledge, including the 1st antibiotics becoming available in decent amounts, more soldiers were taken from the front by disease than enemy action.

[lordroel]

So how long does it take to make a British Walker armed with a Heat Ray.

Like this picture.

[stevep]

   Impossible to say as it would depend on the actual tech gulf between Earth and Mars and also how flexible the British scientists and their superiors are.  Mind you even if we can't reverse engineer the tech other powers wouldn't need to know that. 

Tirpitz - "I want to challenge the Royal Navy and build a bigger fleet than them"

Wilhelm II - "Your being redeployed to a vital role managing the fleet on the China station.

  I did wonder if, assuming we could get a heat ray working whether a walker would be the best deployment platform.  It would be a lot more complex than the sort of motorised or even tracked vehicles being developed in civilian areas.  On the other hand a heat ray is a direct fire weapon so unless small enough - including things like the power supply - to be deployed on a copied flying machine at least a large walker, albeit a big target itself, would have the height to extend its basic range.

  Of course the big gains could be made in civilian as well as military areas with the potential for a lot of advances in many areas.

[spiegel]

I hope create War of the Worlds World War 2 alternate timeline what if Allies and Axis been team up against the aliens from Mars.

[lordroel]

Jun 28, 2023 4:52:47 GMT spiegel said:

I hope create War of the Worlds World War 2 alternate timeline what if Allies and Axis been team up against the aliens from Mars.

They just have to wait a couple of days and the win.

[spiegel]

Jun 28, 2023 9:07:37 GMT lordroel said:

Jun 28, 2023 4:52:47 GMT spiegel said:

I hope create War of the Worlds World War 2 alternate timeline what if Allies and Axis been team up against the aliens from Mars.

They just have to wait a couple of days and the win.

Well i can imagine that idea if possible battles on Europe American Mainland Africa and Asia seeing World War 2 armies duke it out against the Tripods been interesting.

[lordroel]

Jun 28, 2023 9:28:52 GMT spiegel said:

Jun 28, 2023 9:07:37 GMT lordroel said:

They just have to wait a couple of days and the win.

Well i can imagine that idea if possible battles on Europe American Mainland Africa and Asia seeing World War 2 armies duke it out against the Tripods been interesting.

Well we saw how well a modern army managed against the Martians in the 2005 Tom Cruise version, not so well.

[stevep]

I have to say the post-script of political development in the UK after the invasion doesn't sound very realistic.

David Lloyd George, 1st Earl Lloyd-George of Dwyfor, OM, KStJ, PC (17 January 1863 – 26 March 1945) was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1900 to 1922. A Liberal Party statesman and politician from Wales, he was known for the social-reform policies he introduced (including the National Insurance Act 1911), and for negotiating the establishment of the Irish Free State. He was the last Liberal Party prime minister; the party fell into third-party status shortly after the end of his premiership.

He succeeded Robert Arthur Talbot Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury KG GCVO PC FRS DL (1830 – 1903) the Conservative politician who had served as Prime Minister of the United Kingdom during the Martian invasion.

Despite beating the Martians, the 1900 election resulted in Salisbury’s coalition of Unionists and Conservatives being reduced to a mere rump with the Liberals gaining 54% of the vote, and the Labour Representation Committee, later to become the Labour Party, winning 25%.

Historians generally agree that the size of the Liberal victory was due to the anger those south of the Gascoyne-Cecil Line felt against the government who’d ‘left them behind’ to fend for themselves.

The organisation and grass roots support by groups, such as the NUWSS whose organisational ability had been built, and refined during the war, also proved vital to the size of the swing. Their reward, of course was the introduction of Universal Suffrage in 1902.

The ‘Universal Suffrage Act’ was one of the first Acts passed by the new Liberal government upon its election in 1900, but was subsequently rejected by the Conservative-dominated House of Lords.

Following a 2nd general election in December, the Act was passed with the assent of the new monarch, George V, after the House of Lords was forced to concede following the Government’s threat to overcome the Conservative majority in the Lords by creating a number of new peers.

  There were a number of issues here.

 a) I doubt Lloyd George would become PM in 1900 as he was not the Liberal party leader until 1916 OTL and that was in a move that fatally split the party.  He's likely to be markedly more prominent with his more radical agenda but not that early.  Also the Liberals would have one handicap in that their committed to laissez faire policies - as opposed to the Unionist leader Joseph Chamberlain who was pushing for government action on social and economic problems.  There was a reaction against the Tories OTL in 1906 but according to some sources that was largely based around a reaction to the growing influence of Chamberlain's idea.

  Note I'm not saying that the government won't take a kicking in the election but not sure it would be as bad as suggested and highly unlikely Lloyd George would be Liberal leader that early.  Its also unlikely they would stay in power unopposed for 22 years.  I think that is the authors seeking to close back with OTL when the Tory dominated coalition removed Lloyd George as PM.  It should also be noted that it made sense for the government to leave a London that was doomed to fall so that they could organise continued resistance and seek to maintain order in the rest of the country.

b)  With a reforming government something like the OTL National Insurance Act is likely to come several years before OTL.  Especially with the House of Lords constrained much earlier in its ability to block Commons bills.

c)  Far from sure whether an Irish Free state would come into existence here.  Your likely to have an Home Rule Bill passed at some point which will satisfy the majority of the Catholic population - especially with the Lords no longer able to block it.  There will always be fanatics who will demand full independence and the subjection of Ulster but they will be in a small minority.  Doubly so with social reforms dealing with a lot of social and economic problems.

d)  Ditto that its far less likely here that the Liberals cease to be a major power without the OTL stresses of WWI and of the Lloyd-George- Asquith split.

e)  I suspect female suffrage will come earlier but given the chaos and the opposition to it - even again with the Lords restrained - I suspect its probably more about 1905-06 sort of period.  There's a hell of a lot of reconstruction that will probably take priority at least in the 1st term.

f)  Not sure why George V is king in 1900-02 - not sure when the actual reference is?  His father Edward VII took over when Victoria died so unless he was a casualty of the Martian invasion he should be king if Victoria died as OTL.

  Its also noted that there is no mention of WWI here?  Does it occur or not?  Britain being weakened as it was could excite Germany to try even harder to supplant Britain as the primary naval power - or it could be deterred by the fear of Britain having Martian technology.  There will still be a lot of international tensions.  A common fear of a new invasion might prevent it but then once its clear why they were defeated that is likely to be seen as a trivial probability, especially by politicians and a lot of military leaders.  Similarly do the Boers still attack the British colonies?  That is probably fairly likely with Britain being weakened and distracted.  If so would Lloyd George oppose the war against the Boers as OTL which made him deeply unpopular in much of Britain?

  The TL for the invasion itself is interesting and shows some good ideas and insights but its going into some rather unlikely ideas in the post-war period.

[lordroel]

Jul 1, 2023 11:46:34 GMT stevep said:

I have to say the post-script of political development in the UK after the invasion doesn't sound very realistic.

I agree, a 22 year reign as PM is a lot.

[stevep]

   Their added a couple more sections. One on Toni and her future career as a doctor and the 1st female Health Secretary - with a reference to one of her colleagues becoming the 1st female MP.

Antoinette Louise Clark, or as we now know her, Dame Antoinette Louise Clark, GCVO, completed her medical training, following in the footsteps of her friend, Grace Harwood Stewart. Her experiences during the Martian Invasion shaped her service, and she continued to work with those most in need, particularly the poor, elderly, and infirm of London, as it recovered from the disaster.

She was mentored by her great friend, Dame Elizabeth Cadbury (GCVO), and remained an active member of the suffragist movement.

History was indeed shaped by the momentous events Toni so emotively described in her journal. The suffragists achieved the vote much earlier than they would have, if the #Martians had not invaded. Their role in organising those left ‘below the line’ in 1897, gave them a connection with the ordinary people of London, that cannot be downplayed.

Once they’d achieved the vote, they went on to leap into politics. They’d shown their metal, been tested in fire, and where the government of the day had given up, they’d persevered. London had not forgotten, and in many cases, not forgiven.

Millicent Fawcett became one of the first female MPs, and Elizabeth Cadbury, as we now know, would go on to serve as Britain’s first female prime minister.

Toni herself entered politics after a distinguished medial career, and became Britain’s first female health minister. We owe the current equity of access to care to her determination to see no-one left behind, ever again.

She remained friends with @hgwellsbro until his death, but was occasionally heard to lament his execrable taste in underwear right up to her dying day. Apparently the stripes made a lasting impression.

  The other although the title heading refers to female suffrage gives a fair amount of information about other details.  Including that the Martians never returned and of a failed Martian landing on Venus - although how they know it failed other than assuming knowledge of OTL Venus which would have wiped them out quickly I don't know.

From A Suffragette’s War of the Worlds, by Persephone Maxim-Carver, Maidestone Press, 1916:

My husband spent the next three months recovering in hospital, being treated in an oxygen tent. After the War, medical science, including treatment of the victims of the Black Smoke, grew by leaps and bounds. I visited him daily in his ward, along with Amanda, whom we’d adopted.

To his regret, due to his injuries, Roger would never return to sea. He was promoted to Captain and retired on a full pension. Yet life went on. We married in the fall and Roger became a loving husband and father and divided his time between writing and working with Grandfather.

With the destruction of the Martian tower at Woking, Grandfather’s theories were proven correct, as within the week, all the Martians began to sicken and die. Yet Grandfather sought no reward for his contribution. He was at heart, perhaps a little overwhelmed by what he had done.

Our scientific knowledge increased one hundredfold since the War, partially due to the examination of what the Martians left us, and humanity’s own response. Our increasing mastery of aviation is one such example, along with our early efforts at space travel.

After the war, Mr. Churchill proposed that we arm our new aerocraft with my grandfather’s bomb. This Vengeance or “V” force would be able to strike the Martians wherever they land should they return. Grandfather made it clear he would make no more bombs and the idea died.

The Martians never returned. We know of the Martians’ failed landing on Venus after their failure on Earth. Attempts to contact Mars by wireless were greeted by a great silence. Dr. Goddard and Dr. Tsiolkovsky have suggested we send a robotic messenger rocket to establish contact.

Roger was never terribly fond of the popular history of the War, as related by Mr. H.G. Wells. He complained to Wells at length how he had either left so many details out or reported them incorrectly. Wells told him his story was a work of fictionalized history and poetic license.

Perhaps what disturbed Roger the most, was that while Wells told him he had the right to tell his own story, people would find it too hard to believe. “People believe the Martians because they’ve lived it. But a tower that protects from being ill? And Maxim’s bomb? Unbelievable.”

For their actions at Woking, both Grandfather and Roger were knighted by Her Majesty at the National Service of Thanksgiving, that Christmas Eve on the steps of the fire-blackened St. Paul’s Cathedral. Sergeant Howard received a Victoria Cross for his role in the action.

Of course, I – and all women of the Empire – received a great gift of our own in 1902: the electoral franchise.

  I very much doubt, if aerocraft were developed they wouldn't quickly be armed.  Even if Hiram Maxim wouldn't do it then others will, both in Britain and elsewhere.

  There's also small snippets on a couple of other characters.

Lt. James Robert Dullanty, for displaying great coolness and gallantry during the attack on Primrose Hill, was awarded a VC by the Queen, at a ceremony at Balmoral attended by his father and siblings. The Queen, herself, presented the VC to Sir John Dullanty, a rare honour not normally seen.

&

What happened to Morant and Vogan after the last entry in the Morant’s diary, or how Marie ended up with it is unclear. It is known that some people were rescued from the Primrose Hill encampment. They remember rockets being set off. But, there is no mention of Vogan of Morant being involved. It is possible they were killed setting off rockets.

However, it is possible that being were on a list of deserters, they took the opportunity to disappear. Especially as Field Marshal Wolseley had personally ordered Morant’s summary execution when he discovered he was impersonating an officer.

In contrast, I could find detailed records of what happened to others in this story. George Brown was also on the deserters’ list. Happily for him, a petition from the people of Edinburgh and the many people he had helped evacuate from London convinced Queen Victoria to pardon him. There is a statue of him overlooking the harbour. He married into the wealthy Leslie clan.

Morant’s mother settled in Manchester with her two proteges. Fortune smiled on these two women as they were reunited with their long-estranged husbands. Unfortunately, it is unknown when they were married, as many such records were destroyed in the Martian War. Still, the two couples re-established the Manchester Guardian and lived on a property used as a horse stud. In a fantastic coincidence, the husbands’ names were Harry and Arthur.

[lordroel]

Jul 2, 2023 12:55:56 GMT stevep said:

   Their added a couple more sections. One on Toni and her future career as a doctor and the 1st female Health Secretary - with a reference to one of her colleagues becoming the 1st female MP.

Antoinette Louise Clark, or as we now know her, Dame Antoinette Louise Clark, GCVO, completed her medical training, following in the footsteps of her friend, Grace Harwood Stewart. Her experiences during the Martian Invasion shaped her service, and she continued to work with those most in need, particularly the poor, elderly, and infirm of London, as it recovered from the disaster.

She was mentored by her great friend, Dame Elizabeth Cadbury (GCVO), and remained an active member of the suffragist movement.

History was indeed shaped by the momentous events Toni so emotively described in her journal. The suffragists achieved the vote much earlier than they would have, if the #Martians had not invaded. Their role in organising those left ‘below the line’ in 1897, gave them a connection with the ordinary people of London, that cannot be downplayed.

Once they’d achieved the vote, they went on to leap into politics. They’d shown their metal, been tested in fire, and where the government of the day had given up, they’d persevered. London had not forgotten, and in many cases, not forgiven.

Millicent Fawcett became one of the first female MPs, and Elizabeth Cadbury, as we now know, would go on to serve as Britain’s first female prime minister.

Toni herself entered politics after a distinguished medial career, and became Britain’s first female health minister. We owe the current equity of access to care to her determination to see no-one left behind, ever again.

She remained friends with @hgwellsbro until his death, but was occasionally heard to lament his execrable taste in underwear right up to her dying day. Apparently the stripes made a lasting impression.

  The other although the title heading refers to female suffrage gives a fair amount of information about other details.  Including that the Martians never returned and of a failed Martian landing on Venus - although how they know it failed other than assuming knowledge of OTL Venus which would have wiped them out quickly I don't know.

From A Suffragette’s War of the Worlds, by Persephone Maxim-Carver, Maidestone Press, 1916:

My husband spent the next three months recovering in hospital, being treated in an oxygen tent. After the War, medical science, including treatment of the victims of the Black Smoke, grew by leaps and bounds. I visited him daily in his ward, along with Amanda, whom we’d adopted.

To his regret, due to his injuries, Roger would never return to sea. He was promoted to Captain and retired on a full pension. Yet life went on. We married in the fall and Roger became a loving husband and father and divided his time between writing and working with Grandfather.

With the destruction of the Martian tower at Woking, Grandfather’s theories were proven correct, as within the week, all the Martians began to sicken and die. Yet Grandfather sought no reward for his contribution. He was at heart, perhaps a little overwhelmed by what he had done.

Our scientific knowledge increased one hundredfold since the War, partially due to the examination of what the Martians left us, and humanity’s own response. Our increasing mastery of aviation is one such example, along with our early efforts at space travel.

After the war, Mr. Churchill proposed that we arm our new aerocraft with my grandfather’s bomb. This Vengeance or “V” force would be able to strike the Martians wherever they land should they return. Grandfather made it clear he would make no more bombs and the idea died.

The Martians never returned. We know of the Martians’ failed landing on Venus after their failure on Earth. Attempts to contact Mars by wireless were greeted by a great silence. Dr. Goddard and Dr. Tsiolkovsky have suggested we send a robotic messenger rocket to establish contact.

Roger was never terribly fond of the popular history of the War, as related by Mr. H.G. Wells. He complained to Wells at length how he had either left so many details out or reported them incorrectly. Wells told him his story was a work of fictionalized history and poetic license.

Perhaps what disturbed Roger the most, was that while Wells told him he had the right to tell his own story, people would find it too hard to believe. “People believe the Martians because they’ve lived it. But a tower that protects from being ill? And Maxim’s bomb? Unbelievable.”

For their actions at Woking, both Grandfather and Roger were knighted by Her Majesty at the National Service of Thanksgiving, that Christmas Eve on the steps of the fire-blackened St. Paul’s Cathedral. Sergeant Howard received a Victoria Cross for his role in the action.

Of course, I – and all women of the Empire – received a great gift of our own in 1902: the electoral franchise.

  I very much doubt, if aerocraft were developed they wouldn't quickly be armed.  Even if Hiram Maxim wouldn't do it then others will, both in Britain and elsewhere.

  There's also small snippets on a couple of other characters.

Lt. James Robert Dullanty, for displaying great coolness and gallantry during the attack on Primrose Hill, was awarded a VC by the Queen, at a ceremony at Balmoral attended by his father and siblings. The Queen, herself, presented the VC to Sir John Dullanty, a rare honour not normally seen.

&

What happened to Morant and Vogan after the last entry in the Morant’s diary, or how Marie ended up with it is unclear. It is known that some people were rescued from the Primrose Hill encampment. They remember rockets being set off. But, there is no mention of Vogan of Morant being involved. It is possible they were killed setting off rockets.

However, it is possible that being were on a list of deserters, they took the opportunity to disappear. Especially as Field Marshal Wolseley had personally ordered Morant’s summary execution when he discovered he was impersonating an officer.

In contrast, I could find detailed records of what happened to others in this story. George Brown was also on the deserters’ list. Happily for him, a petition from the people of Edinburgh and the many people he had helped evacuate from London convinced Queen Victoria to pardon him. There is a statue of him overlooking the harbour. He married into the wealthy Leslie clan.

Morant’s mother settled in Manchester with her two proteges. Fortune smiled on these two women as they were reunited with their long-estranged husbands. Unfortunately, it is unknown when they were married, as many such records were destroyed in the Martian War. Still, the two couples re-established the Manchester Guardian and lived on a property used as a horse stud. In a fantastic coincidence, the husbands’ names were Harry and Arthur.

Have asked on SLP where the author is a member a question already regarding George V being king instead of his father.

[stevep]

Jul 2, 2023 13:10:57 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 2, 2023 12:55:56 GMT stevep said:

   Their added a couple more sections. One on Toni and her future career as a doctor and the 1st female Health Secretary - with a reference to one of her colleagues becoming the 1st female MP.

  The other although the title heading refers to female suffrage gives a fair amount of information about other details.  Including that the Martians never returned and of a failed Martian landing on Venus - although how they know it failed other than assuming knowledge of OTL Venus which would have wiped them out quickly I don't know.

  I very much doubt, if aerocraft were developed they wouldn't quickly be armed.  Even if Hiram Maxim wouldn't do it then others will, both in Britain and elsewhere.

  There's also small snippets on a couple of other characters.

&

Have asked on SLP where the author is a member a question already regarding George V being king instead of his father.

  Thanks.  Would be interested to hear what he/she says - since there are multiple authors.  [Unless its HGW communicating by seance! ]