AHC: Southern secession from the USA, without the Mexican war/Mexican cession as a catalyzing issue?

[miletus12]

Jul 7, 2023 16:45:20 GMT lordroel said:

Jul 7, 2023 16:41:00 GMT miletus12 said:

I do believe that an American knows American history, better than a non-American.

Lets not go that route miletus12 , i am Dutch and that does not mean i know Dutch history better than a none dutch person.

Let me put it another way. If I were to try to explain the Dutch Indonesian period, based on what I know of the Pacific War, I would not be as conversant as a Dutch citizen who has access to the actual history at his fingertips.

Nor would I expect a non_American to know anything about the subtle interplay of former Mexican, now become Americans, and racist American southerners who came to Los Angeles to set up a new plantation system reminiscent of the horrors they created along Chesapeake Bay and the Virginia coasts, or the likes of John C. Fremont, Unionist, who was trying to tamp down rebellions in the political mess of that steaming goo. 1/3 of California was non-white, as in disenfranchised Brown. So that 20% of 60% left was actually more like HALF of the so-called "Americans". Gold Rush to 1864, California was very much a political powder keg waiting to go off.       




 

[stevep]

Jul 7, 2023 17:04:40 GMT miletus12 said:

Jul 7, 2023 16:45:20 GMT lordroel said:

Lets not go that route miletus12 , i am Dutch and that does not mean i know Dutch history better than a none dutch person.

Let me put it another way. If I were to try to explain the Dutch Indonesian period, based on what I know of the Pacific War, I would not be as conversant as a Dutch citizen who has access to the actual history at his fingertips.

Nor would I expect a non_American to know anything about the subtle interplay of former Mexican, now become Americans, and racist American southerners who came to Los Angeles to set up a new plantation system reminiscent of the horrors they created along Chesapeake Bay and the Virginia coasts, or the likes of John C. Fremont, Unionist, who was trying to tamp down rebellions in the political mess of that steaming goo. 1/3 of California was non-white, as in disenfranchised Brown. So that 20% of 60% left was actually more like HALF of the so-called "Americans". Gold Rush to 1864, California was very much a political powder keg waiting to go off.       

  As Lordroel says being of group X doesn't necessarily make you an expert on the history of that group. 

  Furthermore as I keep pointing out I'm not saying your claim is wrong but that the information you give to back up your claim, here and elsewhere sometimes doesn't actually do so.

  I will ask also what does this have to do with the discussion on the thread?  I was talking about the perception of the people in the old south which is nothing to do with the level of unrest that may or may not have been present in California.

[lordroel]

Jul 7, 2023 17:04:40 GMT miletus12 said:

Jul 7, 2023 16:45:20 GMT lordroel said:

Lets not go that route miletus12 , i am Dutch and that does not mean i know Dutch history better than a none dutch person.

Let me put it another way. If I were to try to explain the Dutch Indonesian period, based on what I know of the Pacific War, I would not be as conversant as a Dutch citizen who has access to the actual history at his fingertips.

Nor would I expect a non_American to know anything about the subtle interplay of former Mexican, now become Americans, and racist American southerners who came to Los Angeles to set up a new plantation system reminiscent of the horrors they created along Chesapeake Bay and the Virginia coasts, or the likes of John C. Fremont, Unionist, who was trying to tamp down rebellions in the political mess of that steaming goo. 1/3 of California was non-white, as in disenfranchised Brown. So that 20% of 60% left was actually more like HALF of the so-called "Americans". Gold Rush to 1864, California was very much a political powder keg waiting to go off.       




 

Still let’s not go this route, everybody can discuss things, wheather they know a lot ore not.

[miletus12]

Jul 7, 2023 19:52:40 GMT stevep said:

I will ask also what does this have to do with the discussion on the thread?  I was talking about the perception of the people in the old south which is nothing to do with the level of unrest that may or may not have been present in California.

It has everything to do with the thread.

A southern secession could plausibly happen even without a US-Mexican war & Mexican cession.

For example: a TRUE history of Texas is a successful version of what the slavocrats tried in Nicaragua.

and failed in California del Sur

You might ask why the Spanish American War happened?

The Americans inherited and developed aggressively what the British and Spanish and the French started; which was a socio-economic system that degraded humanity, and exhausted the New World's soil with rotten agrarian practices and created an "economic and political pressure" to expand slavery, and commit imperialist adventurism against other free peoples in wars of conquest.  

The "filibustero" was a well recognized American archetype. Hawaii, for example, was a Filibustered conquest.  

When the original author of this thread started it, he opened a whole can of imperialist slavocrat inspired alternate history worms, whether the author intended it or not. At the heart of the discussion (implied) was the constant American race to the Pacific and the accession of territory to create and maintain a "balance of power" inside the United States, in which one case, ensure that one economic region (the slavocracy) did not dominate the legislative or executive authority.

Have you taken a look at American presidents during the 19th Century? Early ones came from Virginia. Later ones tumbled out of Ohio. That was no accident.

Why do you think Seward's Folly finally happened? Civil War or no Civil War, HE intended that Alaska be carved up into "states" to counter the "South" which he recognized would soon go back to its own rotten political ways. How right he was.

Jul 6, 2023 16:52:00 GMT miletus12 said:

Diary of Alfred Burton Welch 7-6 Thursday, 1899

Pay day. Rainy season is here in earnest. Lots of new natives returning now as it is uncomfortable to stay in bush now, next summer they can have a good killing after being fed all winter.

1. Albert Welch just wrote a hateful bigoted comment about Native Americans and the Filipino People. To understand why it was extremely racist and bigoted, you must know a bit of American history about HOW the United States government treated the First Nations (And still does. M.).

The USG created "reservations" or as I prefer to call them, "concentration camps"..

This was usually the most worthless land the federal government could set aside. Upon that land, the First Nations were forcibly settled and held there by the army. Usually the treaty the USG forced upon the tribes, that accompanied this atrocity, guaranteed seeds, farm implements, a school, a hospital, and a "beef ration:" and "blankets" for the forced to live upon the reservation inhabitants.

Now the Indian Bureau sent out agents to be the "advocates" for the Native Americans, who were legally classified as "children" and therefore "wards" of the government. These "agents" were charged with "doling out" the treaty-guaranteed to the tribe: beef, blankets, seeds, farm tools and assorted odds and ends. Guess what the Indian "agents" did?

There was little recourse in the matter, if the Native Americans wanted to survive, except to "jump the reservation".. Another way of saying that was / is to head for the hills.

So what Welch derisively writes and means; is that Filipinos are "wards" of the United States government, "children" who will be on the dole after they are resettled, and who will jump the set aside reservations after the Americans steal all the good land. The Filipino citizens will head for the hills, or fatten themselves up over the winter on the American dole at the trading posts and reservation settlements, and then head into the valleys to stage a few massacres on the American "settlers" (Colonizers.) who settled therein. The American army will then chase the Filipinos around a bit and put them back into their reservations, where those "children" belong.

It is a CYNICAL, evil understanding of exactly what the Americans did in their drive to the Pacific.

GRRR.

That is the benefit of a free soiler education. Courtesy of New York state. 

[lordroel]

Okay, lets bring the thread back on track, that is my final word, so as the title of the thread say:

A southern secession could plausibly happen even without a US-Mexican war & Mexican cession

[miletus12]

Is it plausible that without the Mexican War, that an act of treason against the Constitution could result in an armed rebellion by the area once known as the Confederacy?

We have the Nullification Crisis.

We had the Anti-rent War. That was a New York leftover from Dutch days.

We had John Brown.

We had Liberty Place.

We had New York, again, this time with the Molly McGuires.

We had the Wilmington Massacre.. This one happened in 1898 and featured prominently two "friends of humanity" Josephus Daniels

Josephus Daniels, a longtime member of the UNC-Chapel Hill Board of Trustees, owned and published The News & Observer in Raleigh for decades, which he used — through inflammatory editorials, political cartoons and yellow journalism — to support the Democratic Party’s white supremacy campaign in 1898 that led to the Wilmington Massacre. Later, as U.S. Navy Secretary (1913-1921) under President Woodrow Wilson, he segregated the Navy and brought Jim Crow laws to U.S.-occupied Haiti, whose people had overthrown white colonial rule to establish a free republic in 1804.

In his own words, from a Jan. 28, 1900, editorial in The News & Observer:

“The greatest folly and crime in our national history was the establishment of negro suffrage immediately after the War. Not a single good thing has come of it, but only evil.”

Name and statue removed: The Daniels family removed the Josephus Daniels statue from Raleigh’s Nash Square in June 2020. Later that month, North Carolina State University decided to remove Daniels’ name from one of its buildings.

And Woodrow Wilson. who would ignite a rebellion of his own in all places... Washington, DC in 1919.  

You can add the Coal Wars, the WWI draft riots, The Athena Tennessee rebellion, the Puerto Rico nationalist uprising, North Carolina again (Greensboro),   Plus uprisings in Oregon (Twice within the last decade, M.),  and the Capitol Riot 3 years ago. 

Have I left anything out?