Germany of 7 May 1945 ISOT to 1933

[575]

Germany of 7 May 1945 ISOT to Germany of 1933

The Polish and Lithuanian Border Troops were equally mystified as to the ruins appearing in East Prussia. Close to no Germans around and those who were were ragged confused frightened. Wrecks of huge Tanks strewn in the fields. What was going on?

On the Czechoslovak Border the Border Troops were mystified too. The German lands were destroyed it seemed. Ruins and wrecks littering the land. Some German troops were seemingly hiding though within a few hours calls came to Prague that German troops were trying to cross the Border and when rejected had opened fire – a battle was rageing in the river valley of Labe/Elbe and reinforcements were needed. Airsupport too. Actually fighting was taking place all along the border from Karlove in the East to Karlovy Vary in the West.
1 Corps at Prague and 2 Corps at Hradec Kralove was ordered to alert the Border Defences to move units up on the border to defend these. Corps Divisions was also ordered to mobilize and move north towards the Border.
During the evening it became clear that the Germans were digging in as they had been unable to push the Border Troops out of their positions. By then Artillery was arriving and a few AP-32 Reconnaisance/Bombers had been in the air.

The Czech Army Staff was convinced a German invasion was going on of which nothing previously had been expected.
The Czech Foreign Office had tried to reach the Embassy in Berlin with no result.
The French and British Embassies were consulted but nothing had been detected indicating hostile activity being undertaken against Czechoslovakia.
The German Minister to Prague was summoned to the Czech Foreign Office and had a formal note handed regarding the German attack on Czech Borders. The German Minister informed the Czechs that he had difficulty in reaching the German Foreign Office and offered his regrets promising to get information as soon as possible for the Czech Government.

Returning to the Embassy the German Minister ordered calling the Foreign Office according to emergency plans – the hithero used ciphers on the Enigma Machine hadn't been answered.

Unknown to Czechs and German Minister at Prague the Soviet Army had initiated its Prague Offensive the day previously which had forced the German 4 Panzer Army towards the Czech Border with the spearheads reaching the Border this day in the West.
The beaten German troops had been retreating south with rear area troops being the first to try cross the Czech Border and run into the Border Guards which pinned them down.

The World was amazed of the reports of a Germany bombed to ruins with remnants of a beaten Army, Navy and Airforce, with a dead Adolph Hitler (30 April 1945, announced to the Germans 1 May 1945) led by Admiral Dönitz.
Free roaming Nazi leaders around Berlin on the run from the Soviets were be surprised but mightily pleased that they are alive.
That will make for some confused situation - as it was the territory of 1933 that is ISOT this doesn't include ships at sea such as U-boats which will make Adm. Dönitz even more confused. 6 U-Boats at German port won't upset anybody of 1933 - all major units lost being in foreign ports such as Copenhagen.

So what happens in Germany - everybody mightily pleased that its over though the SS may still be cleaning up the few remaining Concentration sub-Camps in areas such as Schleswig-Holstein:

Adm Dönitz in charge but the various top-Nazi's Himmler, Goring, Bormann will surface thanking providence for their survival - their problem will be Dönitz heading state and most instruments of State destroyed thus little power-base to build a position upon but of course they'll try so a confused powerstruggle unfolds.
Don't know how ruthless Dönitz is going to be BUT the Kriegsmarine did execute deserters post surrender at Kiel with the British hearing the shots!
Dönitz will then dispose of the to-Nazi's - perhaps have them shot defying his orders or just locking them up.

The foreign powers will want to know where their Embassies at Berlin have gone - Dönitz will be busy inviting them to reestablish Diplomatic relations at Kiel!
The French will be looking across the Rhine wondering about the bombed out German cities across it. Other border nations will wonder of the scars of war on the German borderlands.
The real problem for Döniz will be reassuring the British, French and Soviets that everything is A-ok in Germany and he is just going to spend some time to rebuild the nation.

OKW had been anxious about the troops in Bohemia whose commander Schörner hadn't been heard from since 2 May. A representative of OKW was to leave next day for Prague through the now in-existant US occupied areas.

8 May 1945

Colonel Wilhelm Meyer-Detring left OKW office in Bavaria for driving northwest towards the Czech Border. As the US troops had vanished Meyer-Detring drived on with a small Guards detachment – on arriving on the Border west of Cheb in Bohemia the Czech Border Guards fired warning shots. Leaving his car Meyer-Detring inquired as to the shots and was told of the ongoing Border battle in the North. Meyer-Detring asked the Czech Border Guards to use a phone and call the German Minister in Prague.

[Otto Kretschmer]

Wow, you just wrote... a lot

Regards.

[575]

Sept 10, 2023 12:38:20 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Wow, you just wrote... a lot

Regards.

Well have lots of shit on all sorts of stuff - Fall Grün is a favourite of mine. This only took a few searches to patch up.

***

8 May 1945 Moscow

Stalin was furious – why hadn't he been informed yesterday? Information was not to be believed.
Hmm nothing much to do – his Far Eastern Army was fighting skrimishes against the Japanese on the borders of Manchuria and Mongolia. He needed time to build up industry and armed forces.

Paris
The French was baffled by the news from Czechoslovakia – Germany attacking its Ally!

[575]

On the Czech border the fighting kept going – the German 359. Infantry Division had tried crossing the border the day before too south of Breslau towards Nachod in Czechoslovakia and had ended up fighting the Czech Border Guards.

During the night President Masaryk and Foreing Minister Benes had held meetings with the General Staff which on the morning of 8 May had resulted in a mobilization announced by the President to repel the German attackers.

Admiral Dönitz had finally been reached by the German Minister at Prague pleading to stop the war with Czechoslovakia.
Dönitz had called upon OKW to halt all troop movements and ordering 4 Panzer and 17 Army to stop moving towards Bohemia and stay in place.
Dönitz then wrote a message to his Minister at Prague asking him to inform the Czechs of the German situation – which he had outlined briefly – to bring the fighting to a stop.
OKW had outlined the active troops in Germany as of now:
Bavaria 1 Army of 13, 82 and 13 SS Corps totalling the 2 Mountain Division, a Panzer Battlegroup and remnants of 7 Infantry Divisions.
I Germany north of old Czechoslovak border 4 Panzer Army with remnants of 21 Panzer Divison and 269 Infantry and 17 Army with 17 Corps with 20 Panzer Division.
All units had sustained severe casualties during the fighting. 1 Army had already surrendered to the USArmy though that had vanished; 4 Panzer and 17 Armies had been saved from destruction by the Soviets having vanished.
There was close to no operational aircraft left and anyways close to no reserves of fuel and ammunition except what units were carrying.
No news from Armies in Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Courland or in the Balkans.

Dönitz informed OKW that he needed some troops in the West – France was making loud noises about Germany having attacked Czechoslovakia. Also he had understood from the Civil service that the Western Allies had build huge detention Camps in the West that housed the surrendered troops. These were not fit for combat and had been separated from their officers a large number of which had been moved out of Germany – at least the Generals.
All Uboats at sea had vanished.

France and Britain wanted to know where their ministers to Berlin had gone as was the case of USA and Soviet Union as well as Poland and Italy.

[stevep]

Sept 10, 2023 12:59:12 GMT 575 said:

Sept 10, 2023 12:38:20 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

Wow, you just wrote... a lot

Regards.

Well have lots of shit on all sorts of stuff - Fall Grün is a favourite of mine. This only took a few searches to patch up.

***

8 May 1945 Moscow

Stalin was furious – why hadn't he been informed yesterday? Information was not to be believed.
Hmm nothing much to do – his Far Eastern Army was fighting skrimishes against the Japanese on the borders of Manchuria and Mongolia. He needed time to build up industry and armed forces.

Paris
The French was baffled by the news from Czechoslovakia – Germany attacking its Ally!

  A lot of this Germany is going to be outside German military control because although allied forces have presumably disappeared as per OK's initial idea there are virtually no German military left - although a lot of former POWs now have to consider what they do with the guards disappearing - and there are a lot of former slaves/forced labourers who definitely want to get out of Germany and return home - albeit than in many cases they will find their homeland different and younger versions of themselves about. 

  Of course how many people will believe what they hear coming out of the Reich and how quickly is going to be an important factor.  Going to be a lot of "they couldn't do that", "that's impossible" and many other such statements.

  Looking forward to seeing how things develop.

[575]

Navy lookouts on the Baltic and North Sea shores reported lots of Air and Naval activity in their areas.

On the borders journalist' are arriving asking for entry to Germany.
Former KZ-inmates begin leaving Germany across the borders to Czechoslovakia, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France and Switzerland telling incredible and fearsome stories of their imprisonment in Germany.

In Poland Marshal Pilsudski had called upon the President Ignacy Moscicki to talk on the situation. Pilsudski wanted to castrate Germany once and for all.

Adm. Dönitz orders a mission to go east to get information from the areas previously occupied by the Soviet Army. Also what few Luftwaffe Aircraft is operational is to be used to survey Germany.
The initial reports is of huge devastation and deserted lands.

The Czech Minister to the League of Nations condemn the German aggression on his Nation and ask for imposing sanctions on Germany. Czechoslovakia is mobilizing its Army to be able to withstand the German aggression.

[575]

Luftwaffe had lost most of its Aircraft as a lot had been flown to Bohemia, Denmark and Norway. In Germany would be 14 Squadrons of Fighterplanes, 4 Squadrons of Jetbombers, 1 Squadron of Bombers in Schleswig-Holstein.
In Bavaria 2 Squadrons of Fighterplanes, and 1 of Bombers.

The major problem with the Aircraft in Schleswig-Holstein being that these had been in the hands of the British that had been quick to make them non-flyable with at least taking off the prop or rudder. The Jets suffered from bad maintenance and mostly worn out engines. The majority of the fighterplanes was FW190 which could have bombracks added within a few days and used as close air support.
The real lack being fuel as that had been a major target of the Western Allies for the past year.
There was stories of some fighter pilots using their aircraft to fly home once their unit had surrendered – some of these might be found.
Not much in terms of maintenance would be carried out – the majority of ground crews had in the last months been fed into Luftwaffe Field Divisions and taken severe losses and spareparts obtained by cannibalizing which would serve to make airworthy numebers dwindle.
Adm. Dönitz put the report down – well that was it. Perhaps some airsupport if Luftwaffe can keep themselves flying.

The reports of Mayors and Gauleiters was depressing reading too; peoples were tired of the war and just didn't want anymore. Food had become scarce.
Seemed Himmler had been caught trying to steal a car and then had been beaten senseless and now in a coma.
Göring hadn't been found nor had Bormann though Speer had appeared in Kiel offering his services to Dönitz. Dönitz had shaken his head – he didn't need an architect at the moment! Speer had though been Minister of Armaments and promised to look up whats around useable. The man might come in handy anyway.

Dönitz suddenly remembered the KZ-inmates among these the Socialdemocratic politicians; if they hadn't been killed they should be freed. They could be used to build some trust in the populace. The Germans needed to get going before the Czechoslovak's would be all over the place perhaps even the Poles joining in – then why shouldn't they.
Dönitz was interrupted in his thought by a Commodore relating a Court Martial ruling on a group of deserters who had taken a S-boat and tried to run for? Well they were to be executed – Dönitz looked at the Commodore. Execute them – discipline have to start somewhere.

[575]

9 May 1933
As in OTL its 1933 and Pilsudski now not only propose attacking Germany but in the light of the current situation of Germany's actually orders an attack to seize Berlin. With Germany already the aggressor against Czechoslovakia Pilsudski have no problem in talking his henchmen President Ignacy Moscicki, former PM Walery Slavek and General Edward Rydz-Smigly into supporting the proposal.

Not much had been coming out of Germany but some peoples in a terribly physical condition had crossed the German un-guarded side and told of internmentcamps liberated by the Red Army and atrocities committed by the Nazi-Germans. Some of these persons were Polish which made the stories believable. Asked more specifically they said there was no German society on that side of the Border – almost all peoples had fled due to the victorious advance of the Red Army.
The former Polish internees had their own intelligence service and related that Berlin had been captured by the Soviets on 1 May 1945. Hitler had died it had been broadcast on that day. Then two days ago the Red Army had disappeared.
If that was also the case in the western part of Germany the former inmates didn't know. For the past two days they had just wandered through empty German lands towards the Polish Border which they had expected to be farther East – as the investigators was curious of this the former inmates said that Nazi-Germany had changed the borders of Poland instituting a GeneralGouverment in central Poland and populated the other parts with Germans.

Pilsudski was adamant – now was the time to unleash the Polish Army on Germany; what little would be left of the German Army seemed to be occupied on fighting the Czech's. Their 17 Infantry Divisions would soon defeat those Germans.
It was imperative to beat the Czech's of the real prize – Berlin.
Mobilization was declared in Poland and the troops in the West bordering Germany was alerted as well on the East Prussian Border. Cavalry Patrols was ordered to reconnointer the areas and Aircraft sent off too.
The Czechoslovak Minister to Warsaw was informed of the Polish activities as was the French who was somewhat horrified.

[575]

The Czechs were still battling the German troops of 4 Panzer and 17 Armies on the northern Border. Futher south in Prague and Hradec Kralove the 1. and 2. Corps was mobilizing marching Infantry Regiments towards the Border. Not just the Northern border but also the Western. There had been no news of fighting there but better safe than sorry. And get time to mobilize.

In the East north of Nachod the 359. German Infantry Division had also settled down on the border as advancing into Czechoslovakia wasn't and option. Some biplane light bombers had taken part in the battle much to the annoyance of the Germans. It also made them ponder what was going on; due to the situation the Division Commander had been out of contact with other German units for the past 3 days.
Suddenly an OKW message was recieved – all German units were to stop fighting and move away from the Czech Border. Red Army seems to have vanished. More information follows when available.

This took some hours to be conducted but late in the afternoon the Czechoslovak units realized the Germans had withdrawn from the Border and inquired HQ's for orders.

Adm. Dönitz had kicked every possible butt to get Luftwaffe send off a couple of reconnaisance missions as soon as possible to get into the picture of what was going on in Germany especially the Eastern Provinces.
At Luftwaffe Base Leck ground crews had been working the past 24 hours to get two Arado Ar-234 Jetbombers ready for flight; it was deemed the most secure way of carrying out the order as nobody would be able to intercept them and several of the almost 30 on the base had been more or less cannibalized to make them close to airworthy not least by shifting fuel.
Now they were ready to take off.

Futher south in Bavaria the Luftwaffe had gotten a couple of FW190 fighterplanes into the air to reconnointer their surrounds.

In the evening Adm. Dönitz got the preliminary reports – in Poland military columns could be seen heading for the 1939 border. The German side of the Border was virtually lifeless except small groups of peoples moving either west or east.
What looked like Cavalry patrols was on the German side of the Border.
Danzig looked like before the War but East Prussia was as deserted as the Eastern Provinces though also here Cavalry patrols was roaming the lands.
In Czechoslovakia the Czechs was moving up troops on their northern and western borders. German troops of 4 Panzer and 17 Army was moving away from the Border.
From Bavaria had been reported that beyond the German Borders of 1933 there was no visible destruction; the French Airforce was very active on their side of the Rhine and along the Siegfried line in Rheinland Pfalz and mostly in Saarland. Military units and Police seemed to be readying to cross the Border from France. Some of the Allied internment camps had been located.

Adm. Dönitz looked into the wall – Damn. 1933. Saarland would still be party to French administration. He couldn't go to war with France not with the Poles moving west and the Czech's mobilizing too. Entering the Rhineland was also a distinct no-go. Demilitarized still.
He called up OKW – General Jodl answering.
-no going into Saarland,
-no going into Rhineland both would be upsetting the French.
Move remnants of 4 Panzer and 17 Army east to face the Poles.
Move 1 Army from Bavaria to cover Czech Border.
Get somebody into the West to open the Allied internment camps and get those troops in some sort of fighting formations and move East though leave a small force on the Rhine and in Pfalz.
Luftwaffe should get some base around Berlin operational as soon as possible.
Kriegsmarine would send all serviceable units to sea to counter the Poles in the Baltic.

[Otto Kretschmer]

575
Is this scenario going to end with the Poles and Czechs seizing all of Germany? Or will you describe what happens next?

[575]

Sept 11, 2023 15:32:48 GMT Otto Kretschmer said:

575
Is this scenario going to end with the Poles and Czechs seizing all of Germany? Or will you describe what happens next?

I'm gonna hold it here.

Lets just face that this is the end of Germany - Nazi or not.

Next up is getting an Army formed of the some 2 mill. POWs in Western Germany - arming them will be a problem as well as getting them to function as an Army. Basically I think the best happening will be a huge armed mob basically unwilling for more bloodshed. Remember they surrendered in the West to escape the war not join a new one. Getting them to the East of Berlin before the Poles arrive will in itself be a problem. The Poles will get their bloodlust satiated.

The Czech's may decide to just hold their borders - I guess they might be the sane actors.

France will want Saarland back to its control and Dönitz isn't going to risk war with France.

Poland will take East Prussia and Silesia and just might fix the border running north along Oder!

It will take losses of course but so will the Germans and their acquired Eastfront mentality of killing everything (except the Western POWs) will be reversed by the Poles once Luftwaffe is dead - few days I expect - and the Germans run out of ammo. Extremly ugly.

The Polish Navy will lose a few ships and the Kriegsmarine remains sunk - perhaps a U-boat or two surviving.

Polish go to Berlin - why even they will learn its just a pile of rubble not worth it. And there's a limit to how much they will be able to settle with the Germans chasen out.

Lets just call it a day.