France attacked 25 October 1939

[lordroel]

Oct 13, 2023 14:06:20 GMT 575 said:

Oct 13, 2023 13:51:25 GMT lordroel said:

That would be OKN Plan (29 October 1939) on the map below.

Mainly so - though not the sweep through southern Netherlands. Also remark that the plans operate with just 9 Panzer Divisions even one in transit to the area of Operations and one looks like being in reserve.

Was wondering about that as the map looks like the Sixth and Eighteen German Armies movie true Southern Netherlands.

[575]

Oct 13, 2023 14:09:59 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 13, 2023 14:06:20 GMT 575 said:

Mainly so - though not the sweep through southern Netherlands. Also remark that the plans operate with just 9 Panzer Divisions even one in transit to the area of Operations and one looks like being in reserve.

Was wondering about that as the map looks like the Sixth and Eighteen German Armies movie true Southern Netherlands.

Well Hitler apparently 27 September 1939 wanted the attack to go through the southern Netherlands but as far as I can see the OKH plan of 19 Oktober 1939 didn't include the Netherlands and then by 29 October 1939 the revised plan did include the southern Netherlands. There were so many changes so the evolution is easily obscured and I may not be 100% right.

[575]

Air Force was essential in 1939 - though there was three major Airforces - Luftwaffe, Armé de l'Air and RAF each with its perception of role and how to pursue Airwar.

Found a USAF study on it - can't remember where - by R J Overy, 1989.

Essentially the one AF of the three having a clear idea of what to do was the Luftwaffe - support the Army in operations. Thus during the French Campaign the LW did so and to do so had developed Fighter Aircraft, Medium range Bombers and Divebombers. Also a system for close Airsupport had been implemented (though it didn't always work 100% as the many pics of WWII showing German troops putting Nazi flags on the ground, vehicles and ships to avoid friendly fire) and it worked.

The French as the Germans had the support of the Army as primary but in support of defence as French Strategy directed the defence (WWI legacy). Though as the Armé de l'Air was guarding its independence it didn't like the arrangement and was too slow in developing Divebombers. However at the end of the French Campaign the Armé de l'Air was gaining local airsuperiority in some areas.

RAF would defend the British Empire, Isles and Trade. Thus it had fighters to defend the Isles and bombers to defend the Empire and Heavy Bombers to destroy the Enemy. As Armé de l'Air it guarded its independence and only wanted to attack targets with a worthwhile effect - enemy Industry and Logistics. Troops movements and fortifications was deemed worthless objectives as these were too difficult to hit. Contrary to the French RAF had no problem in attacking Industry in Cities as it would decrease enemy production. Also it only sent off units in small packets to France to avoid getting caught up in the situation thus losing severely though at Dunkirk and during BoB the System worked.

So we have to get the battle continue for more than two months to get the WAllies really going in the Air.

Edit: Luftwaffe took heavy casualties during the Campaign as did the RAF Ex.Force with the French apparently coming out with the lesser losses.

[lordroel]

Oct 13, 2023 15:04:36 GMT 575 said:

Oct 13, 2023 14:09:59 GMT lordroel said:

Was wondering about that as the map looks like the Sixth and Eighteen German Armies movie true Southern Netherlands.

Well Hitler apparently 27 September 1939 wanted the attack to go through the southern Netherlands but as far as I can see the OKH plan of 19 Oktober 1939 didn't include the Netherlands and then by 29 October 1939 the revised plan did include the southern Netherlands. There were so many changes so the evolution is easily obscured and I may not be 100% right.

So we go with the 19 October 1939 plan, wich will keep the flank save for Germany but it means they will have to move a lot of troops true Belgium and Luxembourg.

[575]

Oct 13, 2023 15:33:10 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 13, 2023 15:04:36 GMT 575 said:

Well Hitler apparently 27 September 1939 wanted the attack to go through the southern Netherlands but as far as I can see the OKH plan of 19 Oktober 1939 didn't include the Netherlands and then by 29 October 1939 the revised plan did include the southern Netherlands. There were so many changes so the evolution is easily obscured and I may not be 100% right.

So we go with the 19 October 1939 plan, wich will keep the flank save for Germany but it means they will have to move a lot of troops true Belgium and Luxembourg.

Yes - Belgium is going to be the main stageging area of the German Army like in WWI and Luxembourg will be occupied by the mainly Infantry moving through the Ardennes.

[575]

According to Lord Gorts despatches to the Secretary of State for War:

Bad weather during October – November 1939; then intermittent frost.
4. December 39 a BEF Brigade was moved to Saar area of Maginot Line to be front units and acquire experience of War.

- ofc here the first will impede Air Operations - the second won't take place.

[575]

Yes, yes, yes - probably boring to most but I find it of great interest to the situation:

Difference in Armour doctrine:

French Tanks only had a three man crew with the Commander being also Gunner and Loader and the only man in the Turret.
German Tanks except the Pz. I and II had two to three men in the turret.
British Mk. A12 ”Mathilda” and Cruiser Tanks had a three man turret, the light Mk. VI a two man though the heavily armoured Mathilda A11 had a one man turret.

Germany – each Panzer Division would have at least 2 Infantry Battalions (2) though 6 had 4 Infantry Battalion and 2 had 3. Additionally 6 Divisions would have a Motorcycle Battalion equalling another Infantry Battalion giving each Panzer Division at least 3 Infantry Battalions (3), 3 would have 4 and 4 have 5.
The Panzer Divisions had usually 2 tank Regiments though some had 1 – the former Light Divisions. As an outcome of the Polish Campaign the 6 original Panzer Divisions got an extre Infantry Battalion while the former Light Divisions retained theirs, also the original 5 Motorcycle Battalions was cannibalized to make 3 more. With only a month to mount the next Campaign the Panzer Divisions would be slightly less strong in Infantry.
When the Germans undertook Barbarossa in 1941 the original Panzer Divisions had been stripped of 1 Panzer Panzer Regiment to form new Divisions AND the Motorized Infantry Divisions had been stripped of 1 of 3 Infantry Regiments to give each Panzer Division a full second.
These new Panzer Divisions – in a modern context Mechanized Divisions - did well during the rest of the War.
The Germans were on the right track in giving the Panzer Divisions more Infantry to make them more balanced and able to operate independently.
The Germans also fielded 4 Motorized Infantry Divisions in Poland each of 3 Regiments of 3 Battalions. These were then thinned down to 2 Regiments for France to add more infantry to the Panzer Divisions and set up the 11. Motorized Brigade and following Barbarossa was upgraded by having a Panzer Battalion added making them Light Panzer Divisions.
However with only a months interlude this change might not happen.
Several SS-Motorized Infantry Regiments had taken part in the Polish Campain making the Army able to field a Panzer Unit Kempf of one Panzer Regiment of 2 Battalions and a SS Infantry Regiment of 3 Battalions with 3 Artillery Battalions.
With little time to reorganize and implement experiences of Poland Campaign the Army may decide to use the Motorized SS to give the Panzer Divisions more Infantry.

French – fielding two types of Armoured Divisions the DLM (Division Legere Mechanisee/Light or Fast Mechanized Division - according to a French website) and the DCR (Division Cuirasse Reserve/Armoured Reserve Division).
The DLM would be the only ones to take part in this ATL as the DCRs hadn't been formed. Only a Heavy Tank Brigade had been reserved to build those DCRs from. The DCRs were to have no Reconnaisance Unit so would be ”blind” - some French argue that they were to have worked in close cooperation with an Infantry Corps not as Independent units.
The French also fielded 7 Motorized Infantry Divisions which would be allocated trucks and buses from a pool for Motorized movement – like the British Infantry of 1940 and the US during 1944-5.
The French also rebuild their Cavalry Divisions during the Phoney War from 3 Cavalry Divisions to 5 Light Motorized Cavalry Divisions which was VERY lightly armoured.

The two DLM Armoured Divisions (a third would be formed during the Phoney War) had a Tank Brigade of two Regiments (Battalions) – one Regiment of 48 modern fast Tanks Somua S 35 the other of slow Tanks but both heavily armoured.
A Brigade of an Infantry Regiment of 3 Motorized Battalions and an Armoured Reconnaisance Battalion. It also had an Artillery Regiment of 3 Battalions – 24 75mm Guns and 12 105mm Howitzers.
The Motorized Infantry Divisions was organized like foot Infantry with 3 Infantry Regiments and two Artillery Regiments of one of 3 Battalions 75mm Guns (36) and one of 2 Battalions 105mm Howitzers (24).
These units according to the Germans worked well in the Battle of Hannut 12-14 May 1940 in Belgium putting a breake on the advance of 3 and 4 Panzer Divisions.

The British 1 Armoured Division was prior to shipping to France built of three Tank Brigades, one Heavy, two light and a Support Brigade of 2 Mechanized Infantry Battalions and 2 Artillery Regiments of 16 18pdr Guns each. During the October the Divisional Artillery was sent to BEF in France. During November one of the light Tank Brigades was used to form 2. Armoured Division.
No matter when the Division is sent to France it will be lacking Artillery.

The Army 1 Tank Brigade which was sent to France as part of BEF had 2 Tank Regiments one of Light Tanks and Heavy Tanks with only Machineguns and one of Heavy Tanks. Of its 112 Tanks only 23 Heavy was real gunarmed though those and 77 Heavy Tanks with only Machineguns were heavily armoured. It was a pure Tank formation no Infantry no Artillery.

Two Armoured Reconnaisance Brigades were also sent to France each of 56 Light Tanks and about 300 Mechanized Infantry.
Essentially would be a real Armoured Force if it had real Tanks like Cruiser's and Artillery though of actual Battalion size.

[lordroel]

Oct 14, 2023 12:55:56 GMT 575 said:

According to Lord Gorts despatches to the Secretary of State for War:

Bad weather during October – November 1939; then intermittent frost.
4. December 39 a BEF Brigade was moved to Saar area of Maginot Line to be front units and acquire experience of War.

- ofc here the first will impede Air Operations - the second won't take place.

No air operations is not good for the Luftwaffe, means no Stukas raining steel upon the enemy.

[575]

Oct 14, 2023 13:00:52 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 14, 2023 12:55:56 GMT 575 said:

According to Lord Gorts despatches to the Secretary of State for War:

Bad weather during October – November 1939; then intermittent frost.
4. December 39 a BEF Brigade was moved to Saar area of Maginot Line to be front units and acquire experience of War.

- ofc here the first will impede Air Operations - the second won't take place.

No air operations is not good for the Luftwaffe, means no Stukas raining steel upon the enemy.

It won't be but even more so the Medium Bombers being unanble to operate as these were much more numerous than Stuka's and carrying a much heavier payload. Also than the WAllied Medium Bombers.

[575]

Tank and Anti-Tank Guns:

Looking at these numbers it seems the Germans were too speed obsessed at the outset. Light skinned Tanks untill late Pz. III and IV.. and 37mm standard AT-gun. No wonder the 88mm AA-gun got its reputation as what else would the Germans have? Though the French apparently was quick to realize this. See below.
Or the French and British just wanted a bang for their buck or had a crystal-ball. Even if those Guns got outdated too in 1939-40 they did the job. The Germans did lose some 839 tanks in France as in Poland but this time they had more modern better armoured tanks than they did use in Poland though of course a lot of the early models had to be used for lack of numbers.
In Poland out of 2552 vehicles committed only 452 or less than 1 in 5 were armed with a gun.
In France this had changed to 955 of 2476 vehicles committed or close to half. The WAllies was fighting better tanks than the Poles.

German:
Pz. I – 2x7,92mm Machineguns

Pz. II – 1x20mm Cannon, 1x7,92mm Machingun.
20mm armour penetration – 15mm at 600 meters penetrate Cruiser A9 and Light Mk. VI.
20mm Flak Gun same.

Pz. III – 1x37mm, 7,92mm Machineguns.
19mm at 1500 meters – Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI.
23mm at 1000 meters – Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, FT17.
34mm at 100 meters - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, FT17, Hotchkis H35.
Standard Anti-Tank gun 37mm – as the tank gun.

Pz. IV – 1x75mm Howitzer, 7,92mm Machineguns.
Depending on ammunition type: Gr rot 37mm at 500m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, FT17, Hotchkis H35.
41mm at 100m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, FT17, Hotchkis H35, D2, FCM 36.
Gr 38A, accuracy post 500m 60%. 70mm at 1200m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, Mathilda I, FT17, Hotchkis H35, D2, FCM 36, Somua S35, Char B1, Hotchkis H39, Renault R35. Gr38C.
90mm at 1200m – Mathilda II.

Heavy Anti-Tank Gun/Flak 88mm – 72mm at 2000m everything except Mathilda II.
80mm at 1500m – everything.
General Gort refer one instance where the French used all available Artillery to take out 1 88mm Gun.

French:
Renault R35, Hotchkis H35 and H39, FCM36 and FT17: 37mm Gun in at least a short and a long version
Penetration – 16mm at 1000m, Pz. I, Pz. II, Pz. IV side, Pz 35 side, Pz 38 side,
29mm at 100 meters, Pz 35 front, Pz 38 front.

Somua S35, Char B1 and D2: 47mm Gun
Penetration 20mm at 1500 meters - Pz. I, Pz. II, Pz. IV side, Pz 35 side, Pz 38 side.
26mm at 1000 meters - Pz 35 front, Pz 38 front
33mm at 500 meters – Pz. III, Pz. IV

Char B1 hull: 75mm Gun could be used as an Anti-Tank weapon
Penetration 40mm at 400 meters – all
The gun would be aimed by the driver and the radio-operator doubled as loader for this and ammo-handler for the 47mm gun in the turret. Crew's limited for such a monster.

25mm Army standard Anti-Tank gun of the French Army
Penetration 20mm at 1000 meters - Pz. I, Pz. II, Pz. IV side, Pz 35 side, Pz 38 side.
29mm at 500 meters - Pz 35 front, Pz 38 front.
35mm at 100 meters – all.

47mm Anti-Tank guns.
Penetration 36mm at 1500 meters – all.

Infantry Divisions would have 30 25mm AT-guns and 8 47mm AT-guns.
The DLM Armoured Division had 24 25mm AT-guns and 8 47mm AT-guns.

[575]

Forgot these -

British:
2pdr./40mm standard Tank gun and Anti-Tank gun.
Penetration 34mm at 1371m: all.

[575]

The French Army had besides the Armoured and Motorized formations also mobilized 3 Cavalry Divisions and 3 Cavalry Brigades. During February 1940 the 3 Cavalry Divisions would rebuild as 5 Light/Fast Cavalry Divisions DLC's, which were even lighter than the German Light Divisions. (Originally when making their first semi-motorized/armoured Divisions the Germans had named these Schnelle/Fast Divisions a term that stuck in Europe. Both Czechoslovakia and Austria had Fast Divisions. Germany actually kept the designation for Motorized troops as such throughout the War so it might be the correct term for the French DLM's)
However these DLC's consisted of a Cavalry Brigade (horsed), an Armoured Brigade of a Armoured Reconnaisance Regiment of 1 Squadron of Armoured Cars (15), 1 of Light Tanks AMC (15) and 2 of Motorcycles and a Motorized Dragoons Regiment of 2 Battalions each of 1 Sqd. of Light Tanks AMR (11), 1 Company of Motorized Infantry with Heavy Weapons and 1 Heavy Weapons Company with 4x81mm Mortars and 4x 25mm AT-Guns. The DLC also had an Artillery Regiment with 1 Battalion 12x 75mm Guns and 1 Battalion 12x 105mm Howitzers, 1 AT-Battery of 8x 47mm AT-Guns. Finally the Division would have 1 AT-Battery of 12 25mm AT-Guns.

During the second phase of the French Campaign some of the DLCs were rebuild as DLM Armoured Divisions. That was a sound decision as these fought well during the German crossing of the River Somme holding the line for a few days.
Or rather here the French won't be setting up the DCR Armoured Divisions so won't waste those resources.

[575]

More on Anti-Tank Guns:

The important thing her is that the French and British units won't be in need of calling up AA-guns (the Vickers 75mm could double as an AT-Gun) do defeat German armour the needed AT-Guns is already deployed to Army units.

The Germans as OTL will have to rely on the 88's which wasn't part of the Divisional AA-guns nor the Corps AA-guns. Being Nazi-Germany things were of course complicated.
As far as I can find the Luftwaffe by 031039 was forming new 2 FLAK-Corps that was to support the Panzer Divisions of Army Groups A and B during the French Campaign. The German Army must have realized that more AA would be needed in the West than what had been around in Poland.
The Battalions were of three types – Light of 3 Bty. 20mm, Mixed of 3 Heavy Bty. 88mm and 2 Bty. 20mm, Heavy of 3 Bty. 88mm. All units Motorized.

The Commanders of the two Corps had been appointed 031039 with one Regiment formed 081039, one 251039, two 281039 and two only mentioned forming during October 39 – Commander not named. These 6 Regiments would total 1 Heavy Battalion, 17 Mixed and 7 Light Battalions. The Light Battalions would have no real impact on Allied Tank losses.
Of course units might be despatched to be in place by 251039 and the issue of missing Regimental Commander given a temporary solution but actually some units due to inter-service rivalry might just not show up! Göring would be jealously guarding his Empire of Air.

Besides being necessary to kill WAllied Tanks the FLAK guns made effective objective defences of bridges against WAllied air attack.

[lordroel]

Oct 15, 2023 8:04:53 GMT 575 said:

Tank and Anti-Tank Guns:

Looking at these numbers it seems the Germans were too speed obsessed at the outset. Light skinned Tanks untill late Pz. III and IV.. and 37mm standard AT-gun. No wonder the 88mm AA-gun got its reputation as what else would the Germans have? Though the French apparently was quick to realize this. See below.

German:
Pz. I – 2x7,92mm Machineguns

Pz. II – 1x20mm Cannon, 1x7,92mm Machingun.
20mm armour penetration – 15mm at 600 meters penetrate Cruiser A9 and Light Mk. VI.
20mm Flak Gun same.

Pz. III – 1x37mm, 7,92mm Machineguns.
19mm at 1500 meters – Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI.
23mm at 1000 meters – Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, FT17.
34mm at 100 meters - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, FT17, Hotchkis H35.
Standard Anti-Tank gun 37mm – as the tank gun.

Pz. IV – 1x75mm Howitzer, 7,92mm Machineguns.
Depending on ammunition type: Gr rot 37mm at 500m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, FT17, Hotchkis H35.
41mm at 100m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, FT17, Hotchkis H35, D2, FCM 36.
Gr 38A, accuracy post 500m 60%. 70mm at 1200m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, Mathilda I, FT17, Hotchkis H35, D2, FCM 36, Somua S35, Char B1, Hotchkis H39, Renault R35. Gr38C.
90mm at 1200m – Mathilda II.

Should the Panzer 35(t) and Panzer 38(t) not also be in the list of German tanks.

[575]

Oct 15, 2023 17:51:27 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 15, 2023 8:04:53 GMT 575 said:

Tank and Anti-Tank Guns:

Looking at these numbers it seems the Germans were too speed obsessed at the outset. Light skinned Tanks untill late Pz. III and IV.. and 37mm standard AT-gun. No wonder the 88mm AA-gun got its reputation as what else would the Germans have? Though the French apparently was quick to realize this. See below.

German:
Pz. I – 2x7,92mm Machineguns

Pz. II – 1x20mm Cannon, 1x7,92mm Machingun.
20mm armour penetration – 15mm at 600 meters penetrate Cruiser A9 and Light Mk. VI.
20mm Flak Gun same.

Pz. III – 1x37mm, 7,92mm Machineguns.
19mm at 1500 meters – Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI.
23mm at 1000 meters – Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, FT17.
34mm at 100 meters - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, FT17, Hotchkis H35.
Standard Anti-Tank gun 37mm – as the tank gun.

Pz. IV – 1x75mm Howitzer, 7,92mm Machineguns.
Depending on ammunition type: Gr rot 37mm at 500m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, FT17, Hotchkis H35.
41mm at 100m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, FT17, Hotchkis H35, D2, FCM 36.
Gr 38A, accuracy post 500m 60%. 70mm at 1200m - Cruiser A9, Light Mk. VI, Cruiser A13, Cruiser A10, Mathilda I, FT17, Hotchkis H35, D2, FCM 36, Somua S35, Char B1, Hotchkis H39, Renault R35. Gr38C.
90mm at 1200m – Mathilda II.

Should the Panzer 35(t) and Panzer 38(t) not also be in the list of German tanks.

Those are as Pz 35 and Pz 38.