France attacked 25 October 1939

[stevep]

   I think the Germans had success with relatively light fast divisions early in the war in part because it suited the blitzkrieg philosophy to get inside the enemy decisions cycle and also they were able to break the enemy line with inf and art units - supported by the LW - and then the fast panzer units were able to get into the allied rear positions and cause chaos. 

  Here the weather will negatively affected this in three ways.  It will restrict the LW in both attack ability and capacity to scount, it will slow the German attacks due to mud and possibly snow and it will also cause more wear and tear on the equipment and men.  Coupled with the fact the Germans will be significantly weaker than OTL both materially and in their operational plan I think that would mean the German attack would fail in this scenario.

[raharris1973]

Oct 13, 2023 10:43:31 GMT lordroel said:

Oct 13, 2023 10:42:24 GMT 575 said:

Belgium - not Netherlands. You were spared my friend.

Until France has fallen that is, never trust the Germans in World War II, they will betray you when it fits them, the Soviets learned that the hard way.

They would have if and when it fit them. Possibly after France had fallen.

But they could have done that to Sweden or Switzerland, when they had them surrounded, but they didn't.  I dunno, does Netherlands provide that many extra U-Boat bases or airbases with extra axes of attack against the UK making it worth the occupation garrison? There's the economic loot factor as well. But same could be said of Switzerland.

[575]

Oct 15, 2023 21:25:04 GMT stevep said:

   I think the Germans had success with relatively light fast divisions early in the war in part because it suited the blitzkrieg philosophy to get inside the enemy decisions cycle and also they were able to break the enemy line with inf and art units - supported by the LW - and then the fast panzer units were able to get into the allied rear positions and cause chaos. 

  Here the weather will negatively affected this in three ways.  It will restrict the LW in both attack ability and capacity to scount, it will slow the German attacks due to mud and possibly snow and it will also cause more wear and tear on the equipment and men.  Coupled with the fact the Germans will be significantly weaker than OTL both materially and in their operational plan I think that would mean the German attack would fail in this scenario.

The German execution of Panzer warfare was really a shock to the WAllies who were too slow to react - though they had the means.

The weather will be a huge factor in this. Without their eyes in the sky and ability to call upon "instant" airsupport the Germans will be much handicapped.

The WAllies are also weaker at this point but the French have their large pool of Infantry and a clear idea of what they are going to do - their way.

[575]

Oct 16, 2023 3:00:16 GMT raharris1973 said:

Oct 13, 2023 10:43:31 GMT lordroel said:

Until France has fallen that is, never trust the Germans in World War II, they will betray you when it fits them, the Soviets learned that the hard way.

They would have if and when it fit them. Possibly after France had fallen.

But they could have done that to Sweden or Switzerland, when they had them surrounded, but they didn't.  I dunno, does Netherlands provide that many extra U-Boat bases or airbases with extra axes of attack against the UK making it worth the occupation garrison? There's the economic loot factor as well. But same could be said of Switzerland.

Agree to that.

I guess having their bankroller, Switzerland, unoccupied was obvious even to them though the French had earmarked an Infantry and Cavalry Force to move into Switzerland should that happen. Sweden - well the Swedes had their main Army in the North at the time of Weserubung leading to the one Danish Infantry Company getting to Sweden deployed to defend the Military Airfield in Scania! The Germans could have taken southern Sweden without any problems 9 April 1940 but didn't. Perhaps they reckoned a neutral delivering needed Iron Ore though it had to be paid for was better than risking the Swedes demolishing the Narvik Railway and Luleå Port. As long as the Swedes allowed transfer of German troops through their country to Finland the may have seen no need to invade.

Netherlands - well I don't have clue. The effect during WWI of having a neutral import port on the doorstep???

[575]

Luftwaffe flying:
Serious losses in Luftwaffe Aircraft – 300-350 lost in Poland had to be substituted.
At the end of the Campaign the Luftwaffe had 850 Messerschmitt Bf-109E and 275 other types with 968 pilots.
There was 194 Messerschmitt Bf-110 and 182 pilots.
At the beginning of the French Campaign the Luftwaffe had increased its number of Bf-109E to 1016 only 166 more than at the end of the Polish Campaign and Bf-110 to 248 only 66 more.

Luftwaffe flying units were organized in Geschwader each made up of 3 Groups each Group of 3 Staffeln – a Geschwader totalling some 90-120 aircraft.
Bombers Heinkel 111, Dornier Do 17, Junkers Ju 88A – total 14 Geschwader with 1071 A/C. (756 Heinkel, 297 Donier, 18 Junkers)
Stuka Geschwader – five of 288 Ju 87B.

The Germans took heavy Luftwaffe losses in France – numbers range from 1129-1841 with a German estimate of 1401 total, 284 Messerschmitt Bf-109E Figthers.
French estimate a killing of 355-550 German Aircraft plus 100 due to AA-fire.

French losses at 574-2000 but the French was able to replace their losses during the Campaign. Interestingly the first day Luftwaffe airraid on Allied Airbases only destroyed some 60 aircraft.
RAF lost more than 900 Aircraft of these 75 Hurricane Fighters in aircombat and 367 on the ground.

Luftwaffe thus lost some 3-5 times as many Aircraft fighting over France than over Poland. In Poland they had faced 474 Fighter Aircraft in the West there had been 1600+ Fighter Aircraft.

It's argued that the Luftwaffe would fly 8 sorties a day with French units only do 2-3 and RAF Fighter units 5-7.
If the WAllies are able to stop the German advance RAF may be willing to send more Squadron's to France. With the RAF ability to fly almost as many sorties a day as Luftwaffe it will have an impact on the battle but also less German advance will have an impact on Aircraft destroyed on the ground due to swift German advances.

Without this crucial element available at will the German offensive will be much impacted.

[stevep]

Oct 16, 2023 3:00:16 GMT raharris1973 said:

Oct 13, 2023 10:43:31 GMT lordroel said:

Until France has fallen that is, never trust the Germans in World War II, they will betray you when it fits them, the Soviets learned that the hard way.

They would have if and when it fit them. Possibly after France had fallen.

But they could have done that to Sweden or Switzerland, when they had them surrounded, but they didn't.  I dunno, does Netherlands provide that many extra U-Boat bases or airbases with extra axes of attack against the UK making it worth the occupation garrison? There's the economic loot factor as well. But same could be said of Switzerland.

  It would depend on the circumstances I suspect.  Better for Germany if it doesn't occupy them if their not invaded during the initial attacks as they could be used as a trading source as in WWII which would mitigate the allied blockade to a degree,  Furthermore, although the Germans won't realise it in 1940 it could be a problem for Britain if/when a major bombing campaign against Germany started as to avoid breaching Dutch neutrality British bombers would have to divert around their territory.  Of course whether the Nazis would see that far ahead or be that logical would be another issue.

  Assuming the war goes similarly to OTL there is the question then of what happens to the European homeland when Japan attacks the DEI?  Be difficult for them to be at war with Japan but not Germany?  Mind you again if Germany didn't declare war on the Netherlands it might not declare war on the US either.  Could be quite a big butterfly but I suspect the Dutch homelands would be occupied.

  Mind you this assumes that France falls which I suspect with this scenario would be unlikely.

[575]

One of the things Nazi-Germany lacked to really motorize its Army was Trucks. As a result of conquering France they gained thousends of much needed trucks to motorize more Infantry and to improve logistics. The latter would be a huge problem in Russia as the railway gauge had to be changed to run the narrow German stock on the Russian rails. So trucks, lots of trucks were needed and the French had them just as the British had to leave thousends of trucks behind when evacuating from the Continent.
Rob Germany of a source of trucks as well as a large pool of captured tanks – almost 2500, though most lacking spares, to rebuild as various AFVs and the projected Invasion of Soviet Union would be distand Mirage.

The real problem for the WAllies was their perception of refighting WWI; how to contain the Germans and fight a set-piece battle to wear them down with Artillery.
Then the final blow with Tanks to finish them off once the Industrial and Human potential of the Allies with a large possible supplyer of needed goods sitting across the Atlantic had been mobilized; which happened 4 November 1939 which may still be the case here. Mainly so with an earlier German attack on France.

The value of radio, which Gort seems to acknowledge in his despatches and to him French lack of understanding, and the need to change the perception of the possible tempo of battle hadn't occured to the French. The Bristish certainly seeming to have had a glimpse of the light which the early Campaign in North Africa would reveal (OTL).
However the French had understood to some extend the advantage of having a radio in every Tank as new tanks such as the Somua was all fitted with radios as was also the case of Hotchkiss Tanks. However the Tanks and the Reconnaisance – Motorized Infantry of the DLM Divisions didn't share radio frequenzies! That was being adressed to try remedy.

As such there was huge room for improvement in communications – could the French Commander be made realize the value of radio much would be made easier.
The WAllies already had the ciphers to communicate bypassing German eavesdropping but they would have to get the Belgians onto that bandwagon. Perhaps a little calm to rest and reassess the situation might have the Belgians realize that taking the extra time to use more complex cipher would be a benefit.
The Germans had realized that doing away with ciphers in the battle situation was ok as long as the day to day business would be handled the right way. In an emergency just talk and get the job done.

However reading most recently the despatches of Lord Gort it was clear that the WAllies was tough soldiers able to improvise and solve problems.
Given a little more time space than in May 1940 they might just stop the German attack – in Belgium.

With the revised Schlieffen Plan carried out the German Army is walking into the arms of the Allied Armies.
True the Allies have less Armoured formations than 8 months later but the German Army have barely recovered from the Polish Campaign and the Panzers have been worn down.
Almost all available as well as battle salvaged and new production will be thrown into battle and still one Panzer Division will be missing as well as the Airlanding Infantry Division.
And a lot of the Infantry that the German Army would have used the intervening 8 months to train to build a substantial reserve – which would be non-existant.

The French would be at the pinnacle of available Military means though still working to field more Armoured Divisions, buy Trucks in the USA for the Armed Forces as well as Aircraft of all kinds.

The French however would have a need for better Tanks than their existing stock – with radios more crew operating in the turret and enginepower.
Actually using British Tanks which had 3-man turret in contrast to the 1-man turret of French Tanks which over-taxed the Tank Commander. However some better designs did surface in France with 2 man turrets though still some way from the British design.

[575]

Gaming it out:
At times I use my old Wargames to test stuff – the Fall of France 1940 being my oft victim though Dreadnought of Battleship warfare during the 20 cent. was used to test in the A Window of Oppertunity 1905.

This scenario I have played out and the WAllies was able to stop the Germans in Belgium. I only did slight change to the game mechanics which is made so as to assure WAllied defeat.
Deducting the non-existent units for October 1939 and lowering German ratings but slightly – not interfering with the system as such. Still the WAllies were able to halt the Germans.

Those peoples that are discussing the German advance through the use of the updated Schlieffen-plan mostly agree that the Germans will lose their game in the longer run to the WAllies.

So we seem to agree.

[575]

Without the sudden panic and collapse in May 1940 the French may well manage to retain their cool – and hold the line. With the staunch BEF along them and like WWI a token Belgian Army force too.
Luck have it that the 1939-40 Winter was a hard one which would interfere with Airoperations to postpone the German attack in the West until May 1940. This also had the effect that not as much in field fortifications as wanted had been build on the Franco-Belgian border but this time they won't be needed.
The WAllies will have untill early May 1940 – half a year - to build up their new forces of Army and Airforces before the Germans will be able to bring the Luftwaffe into play.

According to the map presented by Lordroel the Germans will be entering Belgium and Luxembourg across their common borders – the Panzer Divisions moving in south of Maastricht and the Dutch border to pass the Fortress Eben Emael and Liege fortifications.
There are a large number of dates for early attack and wheather or not the Netherlands borders be violated – but the 25 October 1939 one seems to keep out of the Netherlands even if Hitler had as already ordered that in his talk to the heads of Armed Services on 27 September 1939.

Rationale? Would there be one with Adolph Hitler at the helm - enthused by the already effected defeat of Poland with German troops penetrating further east than negotiated with the Soviet Union.

So Armygroup B with 7 Panzer Divisions in the attack, 1 in AG reserve and 1 further back have to negotiate the Belgian fortifications. However with the positioning of Fort Eben Emael behind the Dutch border just to the south of Maastricht there may actually be no need to attack it!
Without the aid of Luftwaffe due to weather with the prospect of a scattered Parachute drop and without having yet orchestrated the Gliderattack there is the Brandenburg Commando's and the Heavy Artillery Brigades envisioned to break the Maginot Line to be moved up.
Further south Armygroup A will have its Infantry move into the Ardennes like in 1914. Still further south Armygroup C will hold the Saarland and Rhine defences from French incursion.

[575]

So Armygroup B with 7 Panzer Divisions in the attack, 1 in AG reserve and 1 further back have to negotiate the Belgian fortifications.
However with the positioning of Fort Eben Emael behind the Dutch border just to the south of Maastricht there may actually be no need to attack it!
Without the aid of Luftwaffe due to weather with the prospect of a scattered Parachute drop and without having yet orchestrated the Gliderattack there is the Brandenburg Commando's and the Heavy Artillery Brigades envisioned to break the Maginot Line to be moved up.
Further south Armygroup A will have its Infantry move into the Ardennes like in 1914. Still further south Armygroup C will hold the Saarland and Rhine defences from French incursion.

At the time the WAllied Command had already decided upon the Plan D – Dyle – defence of Belgium with the possible added push to Breda to aid the Dutch. There will be no Breda push here keeping all the WAllied units for Plan D.

Lord Gort wrote in his despatches of Luftwaffe reconnaisance flights and RAF did so too over Germany so despite the weather some such will be carried out with the odd chance of using own airpower to influence ground operations. With the added risk of friendly fire as little live trail will be available to drill the cooperation of Army and Airforces.

What I imagine is that the German AG B will be pounding the Liege fortifications for the initial couple of days before they will be able to move past them.
As in May 1940 the Brandenburg Commando's may just be lucky to secure the bridge(s) here over the Meuse/Maas River at Visé to the north of Liege and/or possibly both go south to cross the Ourthé and then continue west to cross the Meuse/Maas though the roads along the Ourthé indicate steep banks.

There will be no Parachute scare among the WAllies and a rather peacefull march to the Dyle. Still the French Cavalry Corps may be the first to fight the Panzers west of Liege and this time may actually face near destruction during the early battle with a much larger German force - or rather due to the border fighting and along the Meuse – Ourthé the Cavalry Corps may have more Infantry reinforcement – Belgian or French to make a larger battle thus buying more time for the advancing WAllied Armies.
A larger battle in which the Germans may face French 47mm AT-guns killing their flimsy machines and even the Panzer III and IV at 1000+ meters! Some German Panzer units found even French Armoured Cars difficult to take out at long range with their 37mm gun as the French would shoot back with their 25mm gun and actually take out Panzers!
A huge shock to the Germans who then have to orchestrate a full Infantry attack with support of lots of Artillery brought up among this the Heavy Artillery Brigades that had been devastating Liege Fortifications.
The Germans called up the Luftwaffe Motorized 88mm AA-guns to defeat the French tanks – this first time went well with heavy French Tank losses. The next time would see the French concentrating their Artillery at the approacing 88's to pin them down from firing at French Tanks.

[stevep]

Oct 17, 2023 9:05:02 GMT 575 said:

Gaming it out:
At times I use my old Wargames to test stuff – the Fall of France 1940 being my oft victim though Dreadnought of Battleship warfare during the 20 cent. was used to test in the A Window of Oppertunity 1905.

This scenario I have played out and the WAllies was able to stop the Germans in Belgium. I only did slight change to the game mechanics which is made so as to assure WAllied defeat.
Deducting the non-existent units for October 1939 and lowering German ratings but slightly – not interfering with the system as such. Still the WAllies were able to halt the Germans.

Those peoples that are discussing the German advance through the use of the updated Schlieffen-plan mostly agree that the Germans will lose their game in the longer run to the WAllies.

So we seem to agree.

  Would that happen to be a small boxed set, labelled as part of a series 120 games that can be played very quickly.  Picked that up and its 1941 sequel for operation Barbarossa back in the 1980's although haven't played any board games for years if not a decade or more now.    Lack of other players plus too easy to play games on the computer.

[stevep]

Oct 17, 2023 12:12:38 GMT 575 said:

So Armygroup B with 7 Panzer Divisions in the attack, 1 in AG reserve and 1 further back have to negotiate the Belgian fortifications.
However with the positioning of Fort Eben Emael behind the Dutch border just to the south of Maastricht there may actually be no need to attack it!
Without the aid of Luftwaffe due to weather with the prospect of a scattered Parachute drop and without having yet orchestrated the Gliderattack there is the Brandenburg Commando's and the Heavy Artillery Brigades envisioned to break the Maginot Line to be moved up.
Further south Armygroup A will have its Infantry move into the Ardennes like in 1914. Still further south Armygroup C will hold the Saarland and Rhine defences from French incursion.

At the time the WAllied Command had already decided upon the Plan D – Dyle – defence of Belgium with the possible added push to Breda to aid the Dutch. There will be no Breda push here keeping all the WAllied units for Plan D.

Lord Gort wrote in his despatches of Luftwaffe reconnaisance flights and RAF did so too over Germany so despite the weather some such will be carried out with the odd chance of using own airpower to influence ground operations. With the added risk of friendly fire as little live trail will be available to drill the cooperation of Army and Airforces.

What I imagine is that the German AG B will be pounding the Liege fortifications for the initial couple of days before they will be able to move past them.
As in May 1940 the Brandenburg Commando's may just be lucky to secure the bridge(s) here over the Meuse/Maas River at Visé to the north of Liege and/or possibly both go south to cross the Ourthé and then continue west to cross the Meuse/Maas though the roads along the Ourthé indicate steep banks.

There will be no Parachute scare among the WAllies and a rather peacefull march to the Dyle. Still the French Cavalry Corps may be the first to fight the Panzers west of Liege and this time may actually face near destruction during the early battle with a much larger German force - or rather due to the border fighting and along the Meuse – Ourthé the Cavalry Corps may have more Infantry reinforcement – Belgian or French to make a larger battle thus buying more time for the advancing WAllied Armies.
A larger battle in which the Germans may face French 47mm AT-guns killing their flimsy machines and even the Panzer III and IV at 1000+ meters! Some German Panzer units found even French Armoured Cars difficult to take out at long range with their 37mm gun as the French would shoot back with their 25mm gun and actually take out Panzers!
A huge shock to the Germans who then have to orchestrate a full Infantry attack with support of lots of Artillery brought up among this the Heavy Artillery Brigades that had been devastating Liege Fortifications.
The Germans called up the Luftwaffe Motorized 88mm AA-guns to defeat the French tanks – this first time went well with heavy French Tank losses. The next time would see the French concentrating their Artillery at the approacing 88's to pin them down from firing at French Tanks.

  Good analysis and interesting how quickly the French realised the dangers of the 88mm guns.  Pity it took the British forces so long in the desert.

  Agree that its likely to become a slog fest and by the time the weather/climate improves enough for air power to be easily applicable that you will probably have well dug in positions on both sides of the front.  Hopefully also the allied air forces have gained enough limited experience that they will be able to do a much better job in fighting the LW.  Think its going to be a bitter and positional conflict and the greater resources of the allies will win in the end.  Going to be a lot different world depending on how things develop.

[575]

Oct 17, 2023 12:45:30 GMT stevep said:

Oct 17, 2023 9:05:02 GMT 575 said:

Gaming it out:
At times I use my old Wargames to test stuff – the Fall of France 1940 being my oft victim though Dreadnought of Battleship warfare during the 20 cent. was used to test in the A Window of Oppertunity 1905.

This scenario I have played out and the WAllies was able to stop the Germans in Belgium. I only did slight change to the game mechanics which is made so as to assure WAllied defeat.
Deducting the non-existent units for October 1939 and lowering German ratings but slightly – not interfering with the system as such. Still the WAllies were able to halt the Germans.

Those peoples that are discussing the German advance through the use of the updated Schlieffen-plan mostly agree that the Germans will lose their game in the longer run to the WAllies.

So we seem to agree.

  Would that happen to be a small boxed set, labelled as part of a series 120 games that can be played very quickly.  Picked that up and its 1941 sequel for operation Barbarossa back in the 1980's although haven't played any board games for years if not a decade or more now.    Lack of other players plus too easy to play games on the computer.

No - its the ooold SPI magazine game of 1970? that got reboxed by Avalon Hill some time following - mine's marked 1972 - about 200 counters. On Board Game Geek I usually solo-game as opponents are few and far between. Last game against an opponent was with my son some 15 years ago!

[575]

Oct 17, 2023 12:53:42 GMT stevep said:

Oct 17, 2023 12:12:38 GMT 575 said:

So Armygroup B with 7 Panzer Divisions in the attack, 1 in AG reserve and 1 further back have to negotiate the Belgian fortifications.
However with the positioning of Fort Eben Emael behind the Dutch border just to the south of Maastricht there may actually be no need to attack it!
Without the aid of Luftwaffe due to weather with the prospect of a scattered Parachute drop and without having yet orchestrated the Gliderattack there is the Brandenburg Commando's and the Heavy Artillery Brigades envisioned to break the Maginot Line to be moved up.
Further south Armygroup A will have its Infantry move into the Ardennes like in 1914. Still further south Armygroup C will hold the Saarland and Rhine defences from French incursion.

At the time the WAllied Command had already decided upon the Plan D – Dyle – defence of Belgium with the possible added push to Breda to aid the Dutch. There will be no Breda push here keeping all the WAllied units for Plan D.

Lord Gort wrote in his despatches of Luftwaffe reconnaisance flights and RAF did so too over Germany so despite the weather some such will be carried out with the odd chance of using own airpower to influence ground operations. With the added risk of friendly fire as little live trail will be available to drill the cooperation of Army and Airforces.

What I imagine is that the German AG B will be pounding the Liege fortifications for the initial couple of days before they will be able to move past them.
As in May 1940 the Brandenburg Commando's may just be lucky to secure the bridge(s) here over the Meuse/Maas River at Visé to the north of Liege and/or possibly both go south to cross the Ourthé and then continue west to cross the Meuse/Maas though the roads along the Ourthé indicate steep banks.

There will be no Parachute scare among the WAllies and a rather peacefull march to the Dyle. Still the French Cavalry Corps may be the first to fight the Panzers west of Liege and this time may actually face near destruction during the early battle with a much larger German force - or rather due to the border fighting and along the Meuse – Ourthé the Cavalry Corps may have more Infantry reinforcement – Belgian or French to make a larger battle thus buying more time for the advancing WAllied Armies.
A larger battle in which the Germans may face French 47mm AT-guns killing their flimsy machines and even the Panzer III and IV at 1000+ meters! Some German Panzer units found even French Armoured Cars difficult to take out at long range with their 37mm gun as the French would shoot back with their 25mm gun and actually take out Panzers!
A huge shock to the Germans who then have to orchestrate a full Infantry attack with support of lots of Artillery brought up among this the Heavy Artillery Brigades that had been devastating Liege Fortifications.
The Germans called up the Luftwaffe Motorized 88mm AA-guns to defeat the French tanks – this first time went well with heavy French Tank losses. The next time would see the French concentrating their Artillery at the approacing 88's to pin them down from firing at French Tanks.

  Good analysis and interesting how quickly the French realised the dangers of the 88mm guns.  Pity it took the British forces so long in the desert.

  Agree that its likely to become a slog fest and by the time the weather/climate improves enough for air power to be easily applicable that you will probably have well dug in positions on both sides of the front.  Hopefully also the allied air forces have gained enough limited experience that they will be able to do a much better job in fighting the LW.  Think its going to be a bitter and positional conflict and the greater resources of the allies will win in the end.  Going to be a lot different world depending on how things develop.

Suprised me a lot too - them Frenchies not that stupid.

It is going to be a positional warfare like WWI at least for the Winter. Guess the British and French will be able to outpace the Germans in production. Will look up some production numbers. If we go by what the French bought in the US and Britain was able to produce its gonna be tight run. The French had some interesting Tank designs coming up - bigger vehicles - bigger guns - and radios!

I am nowhere near whats gonna happen on the fringes - ideas?

[575]

Following the Battle of Hannut the Cavalry Corps was pulled out of the line for rebuilding as the main French reserve. may act as responsibly as then in getting some Tank battalions from the Infantry Tank Brigades to rebuild.
Still with the better AT-guns the WAllies will at some point in Belgium due to the many rivers and canals be able to stop the German advance.

Within a week or two the front may stabilize though the Germans will keep probing defences with the Panzers. Soon both sides will be tapping into the units on the Maginot – Siegfried Line defences to strengthen their Armies in Belgium with more Infantry.

As the Armies clash in Belgium German Armygroup A will be negotiating the Ardennes forest lightly defended by the Belgian Corps of Chasseurs Ardennai's and French Horsed Cavalry operatining in area. The French Cavalry Divisions operating in the Ardennes actually had proven to be a nasty surprise as their few Hotchkiss H35 Tanks were virtually impervious to the 37mm AT-gun the German infantry were hauling along. Luckily there was few of them but the incidents made a lasting impression on the Germans in the forest.
This should give the French ample warning of the German advance to improve the Sedan defences to prevent a breakthrough there though the newly appointed Erwin Rommel commander of 2. Mountain Division was able to reach the Meuse and actually getting a Battalion across before its being thrown back across the river by an WAllied counterattack spearheaded by the 3 North African Infantry Division.

Rommel had gotten Command of 2. Mountain Division following the Polish Campaign – he had lobbied with Hitler and General Guderian for a Panzer Division Command but both had been too busy with planning the soon attack on France so Rommel had to contend himself with an Infantry command. OKH had been wanting to relieve General Feurstein, formerly of the Austrian Army as commander of its 3. Division. OKH promised Feurstein a higher Command and placed him in the Fuhrer-reserve of General Officers and made Rommel commander of 2. Mountain Division – part of 16. Army, Armygroup A in the Rhineland.
As the Ardennnes sector soon turned into a major operations area the few routes going east-west through it was hampering German logistics.

The bad weather continued into early November when it became mixed with snow.