France attacked 25 October 1939

[575]

France had a huge Command problem. General Gamelin had budged to the issue of the control of Airforce but was opposing the use of Infantry Tank Brigades for building new DLMs. Government had already decided to move part of the Motorized Formations from Syria to France along parts of the Tank and Cavalry Units in North Africa to build a fifth DLM besides the already planned two supplement the existing two that were undergoing rebuild.
Gamelin was being a pain in the butt however replacing him most logically meant Weygand who had been posted to Syria to have him out of the way. Pulling troops from Syria AND not elevating Weygand might be a political problem though as the French Army already had stopped the German offensive Premier Daladier expected no problems dismissing Gamelin replacing him with Army Commander Northeast General Georges.

[575]

With the many waterways of Belgium Engineers took on a new importance and some would be given to the Tank formations too as they were most needed to make Tanks cross the actual battlefield.
Even if rivers and canals froze during winter they were dangerous to cross for Tanks and other heavy vehicles.
Envisioning a sudden Tank offensive would require something faster lain than the standard Army Field Bridge. Like being deployed in time like a fascine used to breach trenches and Anti-Tank ditches that would be carried up to the water obstacle at the last moment; a folding bridge carried on a Tank was experimented with as was a pre-assembled bridge with a counterweigh to keep it from diving into the river/canal. To make possible swift crossings of narrow waterways without alerting the enemy to the sudden presence of Engineers.
And then some British Tankmen had the bright idea of issueing bridges to all Tank units to prevent the Germans from identifying the obvious crossings and station their 88's there.
As the experimentation was ongoing dummy-bridgelaying Tanks had been rigged to parade on the front to confuse the Germans.
Though the Infantry mostly so the British had argued that the weight of AT-guns able to take out German Tanks at distance was the real problem – these were too heavy to take across in boats in initial attemps at river/canal crossings. Light AT-weapons preferably manborne with the penetration of the lately seen German Tanks which had improved armour was what was needed to make the Infantry able to secure initial gains giving the Engineers time to lay a bridge for Tanks to cross.
The French was the block here as they dismissed the proposal as rediculous – it wasn't possible to build such weapon. To which some British Engineers Private who had been a mining demolition worker pointed to shaped charges which was known phenomena but not attempted to use in a weaponized state.
Known for their men-in-sheds and at times very un-orthodox approach the British Army Engineers Corps set about building and testing such a weapon. Prerequisite manportability and armour-penetration secondary range. The PIAT had been born.

[Max Sinister]

There are many canals in Flanders, yes - but didn't the Germans find ways to cross them IOTL? (An important question regarding alternate battles for Dunkirk...)

[575]

Nov 9, 2023 3:18:45 GMT Max Sinister said:

There are many canals in Flanders, yes - but didn't the Germans find ways to cross them IOTL? (An important question regarding alternate battles for Dunkirk...)

Well of course they did and were quite adept or reckless or daring but this is more a look at the Allied side which ITTL also are better off resisting the Germans and bad weather is preventing a lot of the airsupport that made the Germans able to cross defended places like Sedan.

[575]

The neutral states of Nortwest Europe had some hard times. Both WAllies and Germans wanted their produce and productivity and both tried to hinder them from dealing with the others.
Most severely hit was the Dutch. They had been cut off from their colonies mainly NEI but also in the Caribbean. Gemany wanted to get industrial output and for is industry to refine raw materials while the WAllies wanted them to not trade with Germany nor with Japan but also wanted their oil.

Denmark and Norway faced the like problem but were able due to the WAllied Naval blockade to trade world wide still by use of neutral waters even if at times running the gauntlet between WAllied blockade and German Submarines.
Both Danish and Norwegians Navies dusted off their WWI experiences of Mine and Submarine Warfare and kept a constant vigilance. Denmark had learnt a lesson of the WWI and had buildt up national stocks of various rawmaterials to counter blockade and be able to keep society running.

Sweden had been in close negotiations with Finland about the possibility of a Soviet attack under cover of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Sweden had promised support though without being too specific but airfields had been built in Northern Sweden and quite a number of military exercises had taken place in Norrland the northernmost part of Sweden.

As during WWI those minor Neutrals had been able to negotiate the waters to some extend though with the Dutch drawing the short straw in regard to the WAllies; only non-military produce would be allowed moved from the Netherlands subject to inspection upon entering WAllied waters and all the while running the gauntlet of trigger-happy British, Germans or French.
Because of the volume of Dutch oil export and still no US ban on oil sales to Japan even if that nations insane war upon everybody and everything in China disrupted normal trade the Dutch kept selling oil to Japan and got the US to export aircraft to the defence of the NEI as the Fokker D-XXI aircraft that had been produced in the Netherlands to do that couldn't leave it.

Norway had been able to get the initial deliveries of Aircraft purchased in the US for the refitting of its Army and Navy Airforces to ward off intruders.

Denmark managed to export bacon, butter and eggs to Britain getting coal the other way and Livestock and industrial produce to Germany. It also managed to get cattle fodder from the Netherlands.

[575]

Deutschland a heavy armoured cruiser build for Commerce Raiding and its sister Admiral Graf Spee had left Germany prior to the outbreak of war. Both had assumed their role of raiders stopping allied shipping taken whats possible and sunk the Merchantmen keeping the crews in captivity sometimes transferring these to supplyships as tankers which had taken up position at variour points on the Atlantic or in the Caribbean. Deutschland retured to Germany in the mid of November 1939 having sunk two Allied Merchantmen. Admiral Graf Spee had toured the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean but by December 1939 been hunted down by a RN Cruiser Group fought and then boxed in in Montevideo, Uruguay. Four days later the Captain of Graf Spee scuttle the ship and commit suicide.

The German Kriegsmarine had had 10 ships specially build as cargohaulers though with obligation for mobilization in case of war. Those ships had strengthened deck to mount guns and torpedo apparatus upon, enlarged quarters for more crew and infrastructure as a warship – which they essentially was meant to be.
As the German Armies marched into Poland and Admiral Graff Spee and Deutschland prowl the wawes the German Armed Mechantmen are being fitted out for their task.

[575]

To Stalin his dream scenario was unfolding in the West of Europe; the Bourgeois Nations were at each others throats and he was able to sit back and watch.

What to do? The Ribbentrop – Molotov Pact of 24 August had placed in his hands the Baltic Nations and Finland besides the lands Poland had robbed him off twenty years ago.
Already he had gotten the Baltics halfway into his pocket by making them sign off their soverignty by allowing the Red Army Bases upon their territories.
He might also go for Bessarabia which the Bourgeois Romanians thought theirs; he hadn't been given a free hand but Hitler was tied down in Belgium. It would bring him close to the Straits.
Finland of course was of interest but the Straits. This old Russian dream. He would show the Tsar's.
Hitlers war looked like a replay of WWI.
The British and French had signed a pact with the Turks. What did he care.
The Hungarians had messed things up. They had gotten a share of Czechoslovakia in 1938. And then Hitler had allowed them to shear off the easternmost part of Slovakia. Of course the Hungarians also wanted Transylvania and would get it at some point from Hitler though right now he didn't have time for such.
Removing Romanian oil from Hitler would put him in a stronger position. He already had his hand on the tap and then another – and the Straits.
Hitler is occupied; the Hungarians are making a mess in the Balkans ill-treating their new subjects and everybody knowing the history of the Hungarians.
The Romanian King already had tried his hand as a broker of peace but had been rejected. He even had his own internal enemies.

[stevep]

Nov 20, 2023 19:22:36 GMT 575 said:

The neutral states of Nortwest Europe had some hard times. Both WAllies and Germans wanted their produce and productivity and both tried to hinder them from dealing with the others.
Most severely hit was the Dutch. They had been cut off from their colonies mainly NEI but also in the Caribbean. Gemany wanted to get industrial output and for is industry to refine raw materials while the WAllies wanted them to not trade with Germany nor with Japan but also wanted their oil.

Denmark and Norway faced the like problem but were able due to the WAllied Naval blockade to trade world wide still by use of neutral waters even if at times running the gauntlet between WAllied blockade and German Submarines.
Both Danish and Norwegians Navies dusted off their WWI experiences of Mine and Submarine Warfare and kept a constant vigilance. Denmark had learnt a lesson of the WWI and had buildt up national stocks of various rawmaterials to counter blockade and be able to keep society running.

Sweden had been in close negotiations with Finland about the possibility of a Soviet attack under cover of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Sweden had promised support though without being too specific but airfields had been built in Northern Sweden and quite a number of military exercises had taken place in Norrland the northernmost part of Sweden.

As during WWI those minor Neutrals had been able to negotiate the waters to some extend though with the Dutch drawing the short straw in regard to the WAllies; only non-military produce would be allowed moved from the Netherlands subject to inspection upon entering WAllied waters and all the while running the gauntlet of trigger-happy British, Germans or French.
Because of the volume of Dutch oil export and still no US ban on oil sales to Japan even if that nations insane war upon everybody and everything in China disrupted normal trade the Dutch kept selling oil to Japan and got the US to export aircraft to the defence of the NEI as the Fokker D-XXI aircraft that had been produced in the Netherlands to do that couldn't leave it.

Norway had been able to get the initial deliveries of Aircraft purchased in the US for the refitting of its Army and Navy Airforces to ward off intruders.

Denmark managed to export bacon, butter and eggs to Britain getting coal the other way and Livestock and industrial produce to Germany. It also managed to get cattle fodder from the Netherlands.

  Would the allies object to the Netherlands exporting military items - including especially exporting them to their own DEI colonies which the western powers would probably see as a good thing?  I would think they would only be concerned with imports to the Netherlands which might end up in German hands one way or another?

  The big issue here, with Germany so heavily distracted is does Sweden give more aid to the Finns?  Plus possibly if the allies have blocked if not clearly defeated the German offensive in the west might they also offer more aid - even if only as a back-hand way of trying to secure control of the iron ore route via Narvik?

[stevep]

Nov 20, 2023 20:17:03 GMT 575 said:

To Stalin his dream scenario was unfolding in the West of Europe; the Bourgeois Nations were at each others throats and he was able to sit back and watch.

What to do? The Ribbentrop – Molotov Pact of 24 August had placed in his hands the Baltic Nations and Finland besides the lands Poland had robbed him off twenty years ago.
Already he had gotten the Baltics halfway into his pocket by making them sign off their soverignty by allowing the Red Army Bases upon their territories.
He might also go for Bessarabia which the Bourgeois Romanians thought theirs; he hadn't been given a free hand but Hitler was tied down in Belgium. It would bring him close to the Straits.
Finland of course was of interest but the Straits. This old Russian dream. He would show the Tsar's.
Hitlers war looked like a replay of WWI.
The British and French had signed a pact with the Turks. What did he care.
The Hungarians had messed things up. They had gotten a share of Czechoslovakia in 1938. And then Hitler had allowed them to shear off the easternmost part of Slovakia. Of course the Hungarians also wanted Transylvania and would get it at some point from Hitler though right now he didn't have time for such.
Removing Romanian oil from Hitler would put him in a stronger position. He already had his hand on the tap and then another – and the Straits.
Hitler is occupied; the Hungarians are making a mess in the Balkans ill-treating their new subjects and everybody knowing the history of the Hungarians.
The Romanian King already had tried his hand as a broker of peace but had been rejected. He even had his own internal enemies.

  I would say Stalin would do little if anything beyond taking the territories agreed with Hitler.  At the moment Germany and the western powers are bleeding each other, which is Stalin's primary aim.  Also given mistrust of the communists and his own paranoia Stalin might fear too deep an encroachment on either German interests, especially Romanian oil or that of the western allies, such as pressurising Turkey could prompt some re-alignment of the two warring blocs against the communists?

  He would prepare to act in response to what he saw as his interests and also build up the Soviet military but things are going well for him in Europe.  Some more pressure on Japan in the east is probably more likely as his western border seems secure.

[575]

Nov 20, 2023 23:38:30 GMT stevep said:

Nov 20, 2023 19:22:36 GMT 575 said:

The neutral states of Nortwest Europe had some hard times. Both WAllies and Germans wanted their produce and productivity and both tried to hinder them from dealing with the others.
Most severely hit was the Dutch. They had been cut off from their colonies mainly NEI but also in the Caribbean. Gemany wanted to get industrial output and for is industry to refine raw materials while the WAllies wanted them to not trade with Germany nor with Japan but also wanted their oil.

Denmark and Norway faced the like problem but were able due to the WAllied Naval blockade to trade world wide still by use of neutral waters even if at times running the gauntlet between WAllied blockade and German Submarines.
Both Danish and Norwegians Navies dusted off their WWI experiences of Mine and Submarine Warfare and kept a constant vigilance. Denmark had learnt a lesson of the WWI and had buildt up national stocks of various rawmaterials to counter blockade and be able to keep society running.

Sweden had been in close negotiations with Finland about the possibility of a Soviet attack under cover of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact. Sweden had promised support though without being too specific but airfields had been built in Northern Sweden and quite a number of military exercises had taken place in Norrland the northernmost part of Sweden.

As during WWI those minor Neutrals had been able to negotiate the waters to some extend though with the Dutch drawing the short straw in regard to the WAllies; only non-military produce would be allowed moved from the Netherlands subject to inspection upon entering WAllied waters and all the while running the gauntlet of trigger-happy British, Germans or French.
Because of the volume of Dutch oil export and still no US ban on oil sales to Japan even if that nations insane war upon everybody and everything in China disrupted normal trade the Dutch kept selling oil to Japan and got the US to export aircraft to the defence of the NEI as the Fokker D-XXI aircraft that had been produced in the Netherlands to do that couldn't leave it.

Norway had been able to get the initial deliveries of Aircraft purchased in the US for the refitting of its Army and Navy Airforces to ward off intruders.

Denmark managed to export bacon, butter and eggs to Britain getting coal the other way and Livestock and industrial produce to Germany. It also managed to get cattle fodder from the Netherlands.

  Would the allies object to the Netherlands exporting military items - including especially exporting them to their own DEI colonies which the western powers would probably see as a good thing?  I would think they would only be concerned with imports to the Netherlands which might end up in German hands one way or another?

  The big issue here, with Germany so heavily distracted is does Sweden give more aid to the Finns?  Plus possibly if the allies have blocked if not clearly defeated the German offensive in the west might they also offer more aid - even if only as a back-hand way of trying to secure control of the iron ore route via Narvik?

According to our discussion in the other thread I was very much in doubt though I haven't found anything indicating Dutch exports of arms to the NEI - may redo that.

Sweden is willing to go a longer way if it feels free from German interference so I expect such though OTL they actually took a large burden off Finn shoulders in Northern Finland with their "Volunteers".

I'd expect OKW especially OKH but also Luftwaffe to be totally against delivering the troops and A/C for a Scandinavian adventure ITTL when thinking of their adversity to it OTL.

[575]

Nov 20, 2023 23:43:41 GMT stevep said:

Nov 20, 2023 20:17:03 GMT 575 said:

To Stalin his dream scenario was unfolding in the West of Europe; the Bourgeois Nations were at each others throats and he was able to sit back and watch.

What to do? The Ribbentrop – Molotov Pact of 24 August had placed in his hands the Baltic Nations and Finland besides the lands Poland had robbed him off twenty years ago.
Already he had gotten the Baltics halfway into his pocket by making them sign off their soverignty by allowing the Red Army Bases upon their territories.
He might also go for Bessarabia which the Bourgeois Romanians thought theirs; he hadn't been given a free hand but Hitler was tied down in Belgium. It would bring him close to the Straits.
Finland of course was of interest but the Straits. This old Russian dream. He would show the Tsar's.
Hitlers war looked like a replay of WWI.
The British and French had signed a pact with the Turks. What did he care.
The Hungarians had messed things up. They had gotten a share of Czechoslovakia in 1938. And then Hitler had allowed them to shear off the easternmost part of Slovakia. Of course the Hungarians also wanted Transylvania and would get it at some point from Hitler though right now he didn't have time for such.
Removing Romanian oil from Hitler would put him in a stronger position. He already had his hand on the tap and then another – and the Straits.
Hitler is occupied; the Hungarians are making a mess in the Balkans ill-treating their new subjects and everybody knowing the history of the Hungarians.
The Romanian King already had tried his hand as a broker of peace but had been rejected. He even had his own internal enemies.

  I would say Stalin would do little if anything beyond taking the territories agreed with Hitler.  At the moment Germany and the western powers are bleeding each other, which is Stalin's primary aim.  Also given mistrust of the communists and his own paranoia Stalin might fear too deep an encroachment on either German interests, especially Romanian oil or that of the western allies, such as pressurising Turkey could prompt some re-alignment of the two warring blocs against the communists?

  He would prepare to act in response to what he saw as his interests and also build up the Soviet military but things are going well for him in Europe.  Some more pressure on Japan in the east is probably more likely as his western border seems secure.

Thats why I expected the WAllied-Turkish pact to have some influence upon Uncle Joe though still Germany had told him they didn't care about Romania and they did occupy part of Bessarabia during 1940. With Germany heavily engaged in the West that might trigger such earlier.

I'm not 100% decided - it will take some more thought.

Really unsure about going East in force with Germany very much alive and kicking.

[575]

Britain had shown to be agreeable to Dutch wishes of shipping off it Fokker D-XXI to NEI once the G1 would be available in numbers – sometimes during May/June 1940 would the estimate according to production runs. Also more Dornier Do 24 Flyingboats would be a possible. Munitions would be a no-go. The Dutch would have to negotiate the US on that.
That at least lifted some economic burden off Dutch shoulders. The question of the Dutch Submarines was quite another matter. It was too dangerous Churchill warned – the RN being on its toes regarding submerged Submarines and he wouldn't expect a Dutch cross-channel surface cruise?
That part of Dutch preparations for NEI defences was shelved then.
Marines reinforcements was of little problem as long as such would travel as civvies – no arms no obvious movement in units. Such would be arranged.
Crating of Fokker D-XXIs were worked on to get each aircraft compacted as much for transport as possible.
Fokker G1 productions was kept going even with foreign orders that would not be deliverable instead such would go into Dutch defences.

Churchill was furious; all his pleas for cutting off the German ore traffic along the Norwegian coast had been dismissed.
Though so too had the Baku bombing; all airforces necessary to defend France.
The Royal Navy and Marine Nationale were busy in the Med. Mussolini sat tight as Malta got more and better fortified.
The French Navy and Air Base at Bizerte in Tunesia was bustling with activity as was the air and waters around it.
No – Mussolini would not cross the line.
The French were already training the next call-up of conscripts in France and North Africa. Motorized and Armoured formations in North Africa and Syria had been shipped to France to build the new DLM Disivisions.
In Morocco the Curtiss, Douglas and Martin Factories had built a joint assembly facility where crated aircraft from the US was assembled and tested before being flown to France for delivery to operational units.
Nobody was listening to him or paying attention – the war was going too well for the WAllies.

[stevep]

Nov 21, 2023 9:29:09 GMT 575 said:

Nov 20, 2023 23:38:30 GMT stevep said:

  Would the allies object to the Netherlands exporting military items - including especially exporting them to their own DEI colonies which the western powers would probably see as a good thing?  I would think they would only be concerned with imports to the Netherlands which might end up in German hands one way or another?

  The big issue here, with Germany so heavily distracted is does Sweden give more aid to the Finns?  Plus possibly if the allies have blocked if not clearly defeated the German offensive in the west might they also offer more aid - even if only as a back-hand way of trying to secure control of the iron ore route via Narvik?

According to our discussion in the other thread I was very much in doubt though I haven't found anything indicating Dutch exports of arms to the NEI - may redo that.

Sweden is willing to go a longer way if it feels free from German interference so I expect such though OTL they actually took a large burden off Finn shoulders in Northern Finland with their "Volunteers".

I'd expect OKW especially OKH but also Luftwaffe to be totally against delivering the troops and A/C for a Scandinavian adventure ITTL when thinking of their adversity to it OTL.

  Ah I was going by your mention of the plan to send Dutch produced Fokker D-XXI to the DEI.  Its unlikely with a war raging along all their borders that they would consider large scale military transfers to the colonies but something like that might go ahead, especially as tension between Japan and the western powers increased.  Unless you mean you haven't found plans for such an export.

[575]

Nov 21, 2023 10:39:09 GMT stevep said:

Nov 21, 2023 9:29:09 GMT 575 said:

According to our discussion in the other thread I was very much in doubt though I haven't found anything indicating Dutch exports of arms to the NEI - may redo that.

Sweden is willing to go a longer way if it feels free from German interference so I expect such though OTL they actually took a large burden off Finn shoulders in Northern Finland with their "Volunteers".

I'd expect OKW especially OKH but also Luftwaffe to be totally against delivering the troops and A/C for a Scandinavian adventure ITTL when thinking of their adversity to it OTL.

  Ah I was going by your mention of the plan to send Dutch produced Fokker D-XXI to the DEI.  Its unlikely with a war raging along all their borders that they would consider large scale military transfers to the colonies but something like that might go ahead, especially as tension between Japan and the western powers increased.  Unless you mean you haven't found plans for such an export.

I haven't found such plans though the Fokker D-XXI was to be sent to NEI once the G1's were operational which they barely were 10 May 1940. Besides this I haven't been looking too deeply into Dutch war preparations though perhaps the Chief will know to guide me where find such. I know there was plans to upgrade the defences of NEI but not of actual dispositions hampered by the occupation which ITTL may happen.

[575]

Stalin was still pondering which way to go – the Straits oh the Straits but that damned Wallies-Turk agreement. Damn them all. Shelving the Bessarabia option for the moment.
Zhukov back from the Far East had been put to planning Bessarabia and the Straits and would continue doing so.
Finland however – with the WAllies and Germany locked in battle and Mussolini sitting tight not daring challenge the WAllies the time was right.
The Germans was building up their Infantry still having Czech equipment to arm 25 Divisions. However the OKW was telling Hitler NO each time he talked about other ventures. That Norwegian had been at Berlin again but had been told to bugger off. Germany was having its hands full in Belgium.
The Italians informing them of the transferring of French Mobile Units from Levant and North Africa had OKW terrified; they were repairing losses from Poland and building new but not in the numbers they wanted and anyway those salvage in Poland were too thinskinned to survive in Belgium. The German salvage and repair eschelon was up over their ears in work with daily new deliveries. No OKW wasn't having Hitler running in any direction. Information of France training the next batch of 10 Infantry Divisions in North Africa didn't help either.
Then the British Army. Of course it was its old self and the Territorials wasn't the Pals Battalions of WWI – all British units in Belgium gave as good as they got.
That Italian guy Douhet was wrong – bombers need escorts.