France attacked 25 October 1939

[stevep]

Nov 21, 2023 9:36:14 GMT 575 said:

Nov 20, 2023 23:43:41 GMT stevep said:

  I would say Stalin would do little if anything beyond taking the territories agreed with Hitler.  At the moment Germany and the western powers are bleeding each other, which is Stalin's primary aim.  Also given mistrust of the communists and his own paranoia Stalin might fear too deep an encroachment on either German interests, especially Romanian oil or that of the western allies, such as pressurising Turkey could prompt some re-alignment of the two warring blocs against the communists?

  He would prepare to act in response to what he saw as his interests and also build up the Soviet military but things are going well for him in Europe.  Some more pressure on Japan in the east is probably more likely as his western border seems secure.

Thats why I expected the WAllied-Turkish pact to have some influence upon Uncle Joe though still Germany had told him they didn't care about Romania and they did occupy part of Bessarabia during 1940. With Germany heavily engaged in the West that might trigger such earlier.

I'm not 100% decided - it will take some more thought.

Really unsure about going East in force with Germany very much alive and kicking.

  In terms of further conflict with Japan it might defend on how things go in Europe.  As long as France is fighting Germany can't afford any adventures in the east, no matter how much Hitler might desire it.  Plus given this check in their autumn adventure and the allies greater resources its unlikely that would change soon and Germany is going to luck the weaker power.  Which not only makes German adventures unlikely but also probably means Stalin doesn't want to weaken Germany too much and have a fairly quick allied victory which might led to a pro-west Germany added to their ranks.

  In part as well while the Soviets can send sizeable forces east.  Probably enough to fight a Japan heavily tied down in China, especially with the recent success of Zhukov over the Japanese and an underestimation of how formidable the Japanese could be.  However logistics would limit the forces the Soviets could maintain in the far east so I think he might assume that while its not enough to weaken the Red Army dangerously in the west it would be enough to defeat the Japanese, if only by wearing them down until they have to give up operations in China. - Not saying it will definitely happen but does seem a reasonable possibility.

  PS  Sorry I was busy with some other stuff so relying to the post above and see you have posted another one on the subject since.

[stevep]

Nov 21, 2023 10:06:26 GMT 575 said:

Britain had shown to be agreeable to Dutch wishes of shipping off it Fokker D-XXI to NEI once the G1 would be available in numbers – sometimes during May/June 1940 would the estimate according to production runs. Also more Dornier Do 24 Flyingboats would be a possible. Munitions would be a no-go. The Dutch would have to negotiate the US on that.
That at least lifted some economic burden off Dutch shoulders. The question of the Dutch Submarines was quite another matter. It was too dangerous Churchill warned – the RN being on its toes regarding submerged Submarines and he wouldn't expect a Dutch cross-channel surface cruise?
That part of Dutch preparations for NEI defences was shelved then.
Marines reinforcements was of little problem as long as such would travel as civvies – no arms no obvious movement in units. Such would be arranged.
Crating of Fokker D-XXIs were worked on to get each aircraft compacted as much for transport as possible.
Fokker G1 productions was kept going even with foreign orders that would not be deliverable instead such would go into Dutch defences.

Churchill was furious; all his pleas for cutting off the German ore traffic along the Norwegian coast had been dismissed.
Though so too had the Baku bombing; all airforces necessary to defend France.
The Royal Navy and Marine Nationale were busy in the Med. Mussolini sat tight as Malta got more and better fortified.
The French Navy and Air Base at Bizerte in Tunesia was bustling with activity as was the air and waters around it.
No – Mussolini would not cross the line.
The French were already training the next call-up of conscripts in France and North Africa. Motorized and Armoured formations in North Africa and Syria had been shipped to France to build the new DLM Disivisions.
In Morocco the Curtiss, Douglas and Martin Factories had built a joint assembly facility where crated aircraft from the US was assembled and tested before being flown to France for delivery to operational units.
Nobody was listening to him or paying attention – the war was going too well for the WAllies.

  Good to see that Churchill's wilder ideas are being sat on.  Although it will raise the question of what happens in autumn 40 or whenever Chamberlain has to step down or dies from his cancer.

[575]

The Finns wasn't surprised as such. There had been a number of violations of the borders by the Soviets and a steady campaign of propaganda regarding the Finnish Bourgeois and Imperialist Government. They had met the Neighbouring peoples in negotiation – negotiation? It had been dictate all along. Now that had reached the end of the line.
The last Soviet demand had been a military base on the Hangö Peninsula in the southwest at the mouth of the Bay of Finland, ceding some territory on the Karelian Istmus that would place the border just 30 km's south of the second city of Finland Viipuri, cede the Pechenenga Peninsula in the Arctic Sea. In return the Soviet Union would cede two areas in East Karelia to compensate.
The Soviet Bombers had been escorted but the Soviet Pilots were no match. The problem being there being too many – not all could be shot down.
Immediately the Nordic brothers assured their assistance. The Swedes began mobilizing the Norrland Brigades (the Swedish Army units in the very north of Sweden used to Arctic conditions and training for war in that environment) and moved an Airwing of Fighters and Light Bombers/Reconnaisance up there just on the Swedish bank of Torneelv – the Border River.
Besides the Regular Volunteers Sweden also saw some 8000 men on their own or inspired by others travel i Finland to offer their service. Regular Volunteers – well actually General Archibal Douglas (well he's Swedish) Commander Northern Corps felt assured by Government utterings and mostly so those of Min. of Foreign Affairs R.J. Sandsler, Socialdemocratic Party, that Sweden would support Finland militarily – that he decided to move off as soon as possible with his Corps to Finland. He just needed the right moment.
A Danish Ambulance unit was offered and Volunteers were called for.
Some Norwegians also seemed motivated to meet up.
Getting hardware to defeat the enemy would be another matter. The US had promised delivery of the Brewster Fighters but hadn't set a date for shipping off. France and Britain were all words but promised a few Fighter aircraft though they didn't have much to spare and were deep in a fight themselves – not to blame them.
Mussolini came out last when the others had dithered long enough he would open the ports of Italian Aircraft Factories to supply the Finn's in their time of need.

[stevep]

Nov 23, 2023 20:35:38 GMT 575 said:

The Finns wasn't surprised as such. There had been a number of violations of the borders by the Soviets and a steady campaign of propaganda regarding the Finnish Bourgeois and Imperialist Government. They had met the Neighbouring peoples in negotiation – negotiation? It had been dictate all along. Now that had reached the end of the line.
The last Soviet demand had been a military base on the Hangö Peninsula in the southwest at the mouth of the Bay of Finland, ceding some territory on the Karelian Istmus that would place the border just 30 km's south of the second city of Finland Viipuri, cede the Pechenenga Peninsula in the Arctic Sea. In return the Soviet Union would cede two areas in East Karelia to compensate.
The Soviet Bombers had been escorted but the Soviet Pilots were no match. The problem being there being too many – not all could be shot down.
Immediately the Nordic brothers assured their assistance. The Swedes began mobilizing the Norrland Brigades (the Swedish Army units in the very north of Sweden used to Arctic conditions and training for war in that environment) and moved an Airwing of Fighters and Light Bombers/Reconnaisance up there just on the Swedish bank of Torneelv – the Border River.
Besides the Regular Volunteers Sweden also saw some 8000 men on their own or inspired by others travel i Finland to offer their service. Regular Volunteers – well actually General Archibal Douglas (well he's Swedish) Commander Northern Corps felt assured by Government utterings and mostly so those of Min. of Foreign Affairs R.J. Sandsler, Socialdemocratic Party, that Sweden would support Finland militarily – that he decided to move off as soon as possible with his Corps to Finland. He just needed the right moment.
A Danish Ambulance unit was offered and Volunteers were called for.
Some Norwegians also seemed motivated to meet up.
Getting hardware to defeat the enemy would be another matter. The US had promised delivery of the Brewster Fighters but hadn't set a date for shipping off. France and Britain were all words but promised a few Fighter aircraft though they didn't have much to spare and were deep in a fight themselves – not to blame them.
Mussolini came out last when the others had dithered long enough he would open the ports of Italian Aircraft Factories to supply the Finn's in their time of need.

  Good point on that last one.  Mussolini will be very wary of being linked to Hitler given Germany is struggling but could look to win some brownie points by aided a fight against communism.

[575]

Initially the Russians ran into the well prepared Finn Army and was stopped.
The Finn's began preparing for their counter-attack and wasn't idle politically complaining at LoN of the Soviet aggression.

[575]

By 14 December 1939 a number of things happened; the Sovietunion left LoN and all Memberstate was called upon to give materiel and humanitarian aid to Finland.
Which was the signal the Swedes or rather General Douglas – who hadn't been informed of the dismissal of Foreign Minister Sandler the day before - needed letting the Airwing and a Norrland Brigade cross the border into northern Finland bound for Salla and Kemijärvi where the Soviets were advancing. A second Norrland Brigade was mobilizing.
The Finn's warmly greeted their Swedish compatriots – this was what they had hoped for. Troops that would know how to fight in the Arctic conditions. Officially it was ”volunteers” not the Swedish nation entering on the side of Finland but their logistics trail went across the border into Norrland Depot part of which had been moved up to Torneå on the Border River.
The Finn's were already receiving lots of Foreign volunteers few fit for service in their country. The Norwegians a few Danes and some Americans knew what it was all about. The French able to fight there was unable to come though they would have been a valuable contribution but they were needed in France. A few Italian mountaineers also arrived as did some Poles who had fought the Germans in the mountains of southern Poland.
Though mostly the volunteers were only fit for rear area duty which would free up valuable Finn troops for the frontline and for building more reserves. The really valuable volunteers was the Danish Airmen arriving; all military trained Fighter and Light Bomber pilots though a few had been out of service from some years. They knew the tricks of the trade and needed few hours of training or type conversion before seen fit for frontline service. Less than 20 but a force out of proportion to numbers.
The majority of the rest needed basic military training and were really a millstone around the Finn neck. Those having experience of Skiing were quickly sorted out and sent along the Norwegians to the Swedish forces. A couple who had fought the Soviets in Estonia and Latvia in 1920 were singled out for instructors. Some Army Officers were also sent off to reserve units and soon getting into battle.

14 December also saw Adolph Hitler trying to convince the OKW to draw up plans for a Scandinavian Campaign – it was rejected with OKW spending several hours argueing that they had to rely on the Czech armaments to outfit the new Infantry Divisions that Tank losses was steadily outpacing replacements and production that Allied Fighter Pilots were decimating Luftwaffe in the Air.
At the last Hitler had looked Göring in the face while General Jeschonnek contiued pushing Göring in the back to have him stand up. Göring did. The Luftwaffe rejected earmarking any operational units for Scandinavia.
Only Admiral Reader was eager to start planning earning the good will of the Fuhrer; it wasn't to last long 17 December the Admiral Graf Spee had been reported scuttled by its Captain in River Plate.
Following the Staff meeting Hitler had an Aide tell the Norwegian to be gone.

At the end of 14 December Colonel Talvela is able to report that his counterattack on the Soviet 139 Infantry Division had retaken Tolvajärvi north of Lake Ladoga and sent the Soviets fleeing east in a rout.

The Swedish were the much needed reinforcement in the North to the Finns.
A reinforced reserves Infantry Battalion had stalled the Soviet advance from Salla on Kemijärvi which had been reinforced by a fresh 88. Infantry Division to the 122. Infantry Division that had allowed the Soviets to continue in a two-pronged attack from Salla.
With what little they had the Finns had managed – in cooperation with weather – to stall even that! By the 13 November the 122. had been ordered to fall back from its forward positions to a village in its rear.

[575]

The Finns had been harassing the Soviets line of logistics back to the border and railhead there; now the Swedes were asked to move fra Kemijärvi to take over the Finn positions east of Kemijärvi and follow the retreat of 122. Division and if possible force it back to the border.
The Finns would use the troops freed to increase the attacks on the Soviet line of logistics and try effectively cut if off from its railhead. The majority of 88. Division had been engaged in securing the line of logistics so was of little value in the fighting.

Sensing something wrong and being bombed from the Air the 122. Infantry fell back as ordered to the village of Märkajärvi with the Swedes on their heels. The ridgeline at the village had been regarded as the new position but the vigorous Swedish pursuit had the 122. Infantry abandon that and continue through Märkajärvi on towards Salla in the northeast.
To the north the other Soviet axis of advance had been attacked in the rear by the Finn's which had the 88. Infantry Division pull back east to Savukoski and then as the Finn's kept up the pressure and had been reinforced by the second Norrland Brigade routed back to Salla.
A week later the Soviets were back at the border.

[575]

The action of General Douglas was much critizised in Sweden but as the General himself had moved into Finland to lead his troops and since the Finn President Ryti had non-officially thanked Sweden of the resolute decision to support his country General Douglas was left in Finland and the Swedish Government only informed the world that a large volunteer contingent had moved into Finland to aid the brother nation in need – which of course were all true though not admitting to regular troops being party to the intervention. In the turmoil nobody seemed eager to dig deeper into what had happened – and why question somebody aiding the underdog.

During the first two weeks the Swedish group of volunteers had been giving basic Infantry training and were now sent north to strengthen the Norrland Brigades and let the Finns pull out part of the Soumussalmi force to route it to the Karelian Istmus.

During the remainder of the year the Finn's and their Swedish ”volunteers” are able to push the Soviet attackers of 9. Army in central Finland back to the border and route Finn formations south to strengthen the defences of the Karelian Istmus much needed as the Soviets were preparing their offensive.

[575]

1940
A week into the new year the Soviet offensive unfolded on the Karelian Istmus; the Finn lines held. The early moving of the 9. Infantry Division from Soumussalmi due to the reinforcement by the Swedish made this possible and made for a larger Finn reserve on the Istmus.

Following the Soviet offensive calm settled on the frontlines.
By the 29 January the Soviet Foreign Ministry asked its Swedish counterpart to inform the Finn's that a settlement would be possible under the last terms offered by the Soviet Union.
The Swedes informed the Finn's that the British Government had sent a note to the Norwegian Goverment regarding German Naval activities in Norwegian waters that might trigger RN activities in Norwegian waters. Norway had answered that Norway reject any violations of its territorial waters of any warring nation.
Sweden also inform Finland that there is a limit on its ability to sustain its troops in Finland. Depots are running low and in the current situation replenishment is difficult. Sweden will be forced to withdraw its troops within a few months max on the present level of spending ammunition and other necessities and supplying the Finn's too.
Sweden also feared a spread of the war to Scandinavia because of the English note.

The WAllies was busy fighting Germany in Belgium and Germany busy fighting the WAllies. A certain Norwegian wasn't to get German aid in his political scheme at this time.
The Swedish Min. of Defence daily informed Government of deliveries of Arms and Ammunition to Finland – to both own and Finn forces fighting there.
Finland had told the Swedes to inform the Soviets that it wasn't in a mood for surrender. The fight would have to go on.

The fight did go on with the Soviets unleashing a new major offensive on the Karelian Istmus during early February. Which the Finns stopped – with losses of course.

[stevep]

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

1940
A week into the new year the Soviet offensive unfolded on the Karelian Istmus; the Finn lines held. The early moving of the 9. Infantry Division from Soumussalmi due to the reinforcement by the Swedish made this possible and made for a larger Finn reserve on the Istmus.

Following the Soviet offensive calm settled on the frontlines.
By the 29 January the Soviet Foreign Ministry asked its Swedish counterpart to inform the Finn's that a settlement would be possible under the last terms offered by the Soviet Union.
The Swedes informed the Finn's that the British Government had sent a note to the Norwegian Goverment regarding German Naval activities in Norwegian waters that might trigger RN activities in Norwegian waters. Norway had answered that Norway reject any violations of its territorial waters of any warring nation.
Sweden also inform Finland that there is a limit on its ability to sustain its troops in Finland. Depots are running low and in the current situation replenishment is difficult. Sweden will be forced to withdraw its troops within a few months max on the present level of spending ammunition and other necessities and supplying the Finn's too.
Sweden also feared a spread of the war to Scandinavia because of the English note.

The WAllies was busy fighting Germany in Belgium and Germany busy fighting the WAllies. A certain Norwegian wasn't to get German aid in his political scheme at this time.
The Swedish Min. of Defence daily informed Government of deliveries of Arms and Ammunition to Finland – to both own and Finn forces fighting there.
Finland had told the Swedes to inform the Soviets that it wasn't in a mood for surrender. The fight would have to go on.

The fight did go on with the Soviets unleashing a new major offensive on the Karelian Istmus during early February. Which the Finns stopped – with losses of course.

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

Norway

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

The Swedes informed the Finn's that the British Government had sent a note to the Norwegian Goverment regarding German Naval activities in Norwegian waters that might trigger RN activities in Norwegian waters. Norway had answered that Norway reject any violations of its territorial waters of any warring nation.

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

Swedish

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

By the 29 January the Soviet Foreign Ministry asked its Swedish counterpart to inform the Finn's that a settlement would be possible under the last terms offered by the Soviet Union.

  Two questions come to mind. 

a)  Who blinks 1st in Finland, the Soviets or the Finns, with the latter possibly being prompted by pressure from Sweden to make concessions.  I expect some Soviet gains but probably markedly less than OTL.  The big issue would be whether they could keep control of Viipuri and the neighbouring region which was industrially important.  The Soviets want this areas as a buffer to Leningrad but its both economically and politically important to the Finns.

b)  Will the western allies try forcing occupation of part of Norway as part of an 'aid' to Finland.  I suspect not because with an active fighting war on the western front they will have their attention concentrated on that.  Also it would face opposition from both Norway and Sweden which would mean a clear cost both militarily and diplomatically.  Furthermore once spring comes and the Baltic thaws its irrelevant until the following winter as iron ore will be moving via the Baltic until the following winter by which time the war might be largely decided.  I could be wrong of course but my initial thoughts.

  One other point was that the initial failures in Finland and heavy costs of later attacks made Stalin and some of the military commanders realise how weak the Red Army was in many ways and prompted reforms.  Here with markedly heavier fighting and especially if the Soviets make minimal gains the incentive for rapid reforms would be stronger than OTL.  Which might make a difference to the Red Army in fighting anywhere in the early 40's wherever that might be.  [Could be an attack on a faltering Germany, a larger clash with Japan or some adventure elsewhere.]

PS  Not sure why but seems to be some corruption of the message I'm replying to??

[575]

Nov 30, 2023 17:51:29 GMT stevep said:

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

1940
A week into the new year the Soviet offensive unfolded on the Karelian Istmus; the Finn lines held. The early moving of the 9. Infantry Division from Soumussalmi due to the reinforcement by the Swedish made this possible and made for a larger Finn reserve on the Istmus.

Following the Soviet offensive calm settled on the frontlines.
By the 29 January the Soviet Foreign Ministry asked its Swedish counterpart to inform the Finn's that a settlement would be possible under the last terms offered by the Soviet Union.
The Swedes informed the Finn's that the British Government had sent a note to the Norwegian Goverment regarding German Naval activities in Norwegian waters that might trigger RN activities in Norwegian waters. Norway had answered that Norway reject any violations of its territorial waters of any warring nation.
Sweden also inform Finland that there is a limit on its ability to sustain its troops in Finland. Depots are running low and in the current situation replenishment is difficult. Sweden will be forced to withdraw its troops within a few months max on the present level of spending ammunition and other necessities and supplying the Finn's too.
Sweden also feared a spread of the war to Scandinavia because of the English note.

The WAllies was busy fighting Germany in Belgium and Germany busy fighting the WAllies. A certain Norwegian wasn't to get German aid in his political scheme at this time.
The Swedish Min. of Defence daily informed Government of deliveries of Arms and Ammunition to Finland – to both own and Finn forces fighting there.
Finland had told the Swedes to inform the Soviets that it wasn't in a mood for surrender. The fight would have to go on.

The fight did go on with the Soviets unleashing a new major offensive on the Karelian Istmus during early February. Which the Finns stopped – with losses of course.

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

Norway

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

The Swedes informed the Finn's that the British Government had sent a note to the Norwegian Goverment regarding German Naval activities in Norwegian waters that might trigger RN activities in Norwegian waters. Norway had answered that Norway reject any violations of its territorial waters of any warring nation.

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

Swedish

Nov 30, 2023 10:03:05 GMT 575 said:

By the 29 January the Soviet Foreign Ministry asked its Swedish counterpart to inform the Finn's that a settlement would be possible under the last terms offered by the Soviet Union.

  Two questions come to mind. 

a)  Who blinks 1st in Finland, the Soviets or the Finns, with the latter possibly being prompted by pressure from Sweden to make concessions.  I expect some Soviet gains but probably markedly less than OTL.  The big issue would be whether they could keep control of Viipuri and the neighbouring region which was industrially important.  The Soviets want this areas as a buffer to Leningrad but its both economically and politically important to the Finns.

b)  Will the western allies try forcing occupation of part of Norway as part of an 'aid' to Finland.  I suspect not because with an active fighting war on the western front they will have their attention concentrated on that.  Also it would face opposition from both Norway and Sweden which would mean a clear cost both militarily and diplomatically.  Furthermore once spring comes and the Baltic thaws its irrelevant until the following winter as iron ore will be moving via the Baltic until the following winter by which time the war might be largely decided.  I could be wrong of course but my initial thoughts.

  One other point was that the initial failures in Finland and heavy costs of later attacks made Stalin and some of the military commanders realise how weak the Red Army was in many ways and prompted reforms.  Here with markedly heavier fighting and especially if the Soviets make minimal gains the incentive for rapid reforms would be stronger than OTL.  Which might make a difference to the Red Army in fighting anywhere in the early 40's wherever that might be.  [Could be an attack on a faltering Germany, a larger clash with Japan or some adventure elsewhere.]

PS  Not sure why but seems to be some corruption of the message I'm replying to??

stevep;

regarding corruption I had some odd thing going on in my text formatting before posting and just having posted I had some problems navigating the site.

a) We'll see soon. Markedly less than OTL mainly so in the area of Viipuri. Still the Soviets will get a buffer area north of Leningrad.

b) The West is tied down in Belgium holding the line and gearing up for Spring. With the French not pulling the cart as much as the British would like there's not much to spare. With the OTL German information passing on to the West regarding Norway there will be less incentive to race the Germans. There was a German businessman travelling to Switzerland whose cousin was a Staff Officer at OKH/OKW that gave him information to pass to the Frenchs/Allies - can't remember his name or how long he worked. Was mentioned in a documentary on spies of WW2.

Some post' ago I mentioned a Norwegian who wanted to talk to Hitler - who didn't have time for him..

[575]

General Siilasvuo having been reinforced by some Swedish Norrland Battalions is able to defeat the Soviets and rout them over the border.
Following a short rest and the moving of the third Norrland Brigade to Kumho General Siilasvuo move his troops south to form part of the reserves behind the Finn defences on the Karelian Istmus.
Finland receive the first batch of 10 Fiat G50 Fighter aircraft transported from Italy on a Norwegian freighter to Turku, Finland where the Aircraft was unloaded and assembled.

At this time the Swedish Government on its own initiative seeing the Soviets batter at the Finn defences without advancing inform the Finn Government that it is going to ask the Soviet Government to let it house negotiations of a ceasefire and ultimately an end to hostilities at Stockholm.
The Finns want an end to hostilities but are not willing to discuss land cedings; the lack of foreign will to aid Finland materially or with troops due to the ongoing battle in Belgium though convince the Finns they need to do so. Only two squadrons worth of Fighter Aircraft from the WAllies; no ammunition no nothing.
The Finn position will be peace on Status quo ante or Status quo – if neighter is accepted the negotiaters is informed that the original Soviet proposal prior to outbreak of hostilities on 30 November 1939 will be acceptable.

Even if unimpressed by the huge casualties suffered on the ground and in the air Stalin is impressed with the Finn will to fight and barring the third offensive of his Army to advance on the Karelian Istmus. Half of the Divisions of the Military Districts in the West of the Sovietunion is on the Finn frontline.
Shortly discussing the situation with Zhukov Stalin decide that this cannot go on; the Red Army is bleeding in Finland and the laughing stock of the WAllies. Several news agencies of Neutral countries report that the Soviet Army is some asset to its Ally Nazi-Germany.

Nothing real on the Swedish engagement in Central Finland have been coming out. Warcorrespondents stay in the relative safety of Helsinki or in Turko in the west of country and as the Swedes are only referred to as Volunteers not many of the reporters have real information on what is going in Central Finland – those who do mainly Swedes don't betray the Finn's or Swedes to the World.
Foreign Minister Molotov is ordered to respond to the Swedes that the Sovietunion will participate in talks hosted by the Swedish Government.
However another offensive is ordered by Stalin to get a better position – at least try.
The offensive fails too and the warring parties meet in Stockholm, Sweden on the 10 March 1940.

[stevep]

Dec 1, 2023 9:52:39 GMT 575 said:

General Siilasvuo having been reinforced by some Swedish Norrland Battalions is able to defeat the Soviets and rout them over the border.
Following a short rest and the moving of the third Norrland Brigade to Kumho General Siilasvuo move his troops south to form part of the reserves behind the Finn defences on the Karelian Istmus.
Finland receive the first batch of 10 Fiat G50 Fighter aircraft transported from Italy on a Norwegian freighter to Turku, Finland where the Aircraft was unloaded and assembled.

At this time the Swedish Government on its own initiative seeing the Soviets batter at the Finn defences without advancing inform the Finn Government that it is going to ask the Soviet Government to let it house negotiations of a ceasefire and ultimately an end to hostilities at Stockholm.
The Finns want an end to hostilities but are not willing to discuss land cedings; the lack of foreign will to aid Finland materially or with troops due to the ongoing battle in Belgium though convince the Finns they need to do so. Only two squadrons worth of Fighter Aircraft from the WAllies; no ammunition no nothing.
The Finn position will be peace on Status quo ante or Status quo – if neighter is accepted the negotiaters is informed that the original Soviet proposal prior to outbreak of hostilities on 30 November 1939 will be acceptable.

Even if unimpressed by the huge casualties suffered on the ground and in the air Stalin is impressed with the Finn will to fight and barring the third offensive of his Army to advance on the Karelian Istmus. Half of the Divisions of the Military Districts in the West of the Sovietunion is on the Finn frontline.
Shortly discussing the situation with Zhukov Stalin decide that this cannot go on; the Red Army is bleeding in Finland and the laughing stock of the WAllies. Several news agencies of Neutral countries report that the Soviet Army is some asset to its Ally Nazi-Germany.

Nothing real on the Swedish engagement in Central Finland have been coming out. Warcorrespondents stay in the relative safety of Helsinki or in Turko in the west of country and as the Swedes are only referred to as Volunteers not many of the reporters have real information on what is going in Central Finland – those who do mainly Swedes don't betray the Finn's or Swedes to the World.
Foreign Minister Molotov is ordered to respond to the Swedes that the Sovietunion will participate in talks hosted by the Swedish Government.
However another offensive is ordered by Stalin to get a better position – at least try.
The offensive fails too and the warring parties meet in Stockholm, Sweden on the 10 March 1940.

  Sounding very good.

  Picking up on your other point I wonder what name TTL will use for a traitor who co-operates with a foreign occupier - or is even willing to encourage such an occupier?  Won't be a Petain or Lavel and not sure if anything else comes to mind.

[575]

Dec 1, 2023 14:29:19 GMT stevep said:

Dec 1, 2023 9:52:39 GMT 575 said:

General Siilasvuo having been reinforced by some Swedish Norrland Battalions is able to defeat the Soviets and rout them over the border.
Following a short rest and the moving of the third Norrland Brigade to Kumho General Siilasvuo move his troops south to form part of the reserves behind the Finn defences on the Karelian Istmus.
Finland receive the first batch of 10 Fiat G50 Fighter aircraft transported from Italy on a Norwegian freighter to Turku, Finland where the Aircraft was unloaded and assembled.

At this time the Swedish Government on its own initiative seeing the Soviets batter at the Finn defences without advancing inform the Finn Government that it is going to ask the Soviet Government to let it house negotiations of a ceasefire and ultimately an end to hostilities at Stockholm.
The Finns want an end to hostilities but are not willing to discuss land cedings; the lack of foreign will to aid Finland materially or with troops due to the ongoing battle in Belgium though convince the Finns they need to do so. Only two squadrons worth of Fighter Aircraft from the WAllies; no ammunition no nothing.
The Finn position will be peace on Status quo ante or Status quo – if neighter is accepted the negotiaters is informed that the original Soviet proposal prior to outbreak of hostilities on 30 November 1939 will be acceptable.

Even if unimpressed by the huge casualties suffered on the ground and in the air Stalin is impressed with the Finn will to fight and barring the third offensive of his Army to advance on the Karelian Istmus. Half of the Divisions of the Military Districts in the West of the Sovietunion is on the Finn frontline.
Shortly discussing the situation with Zhukov Stalin decide that this cannot go on; the Red Army is bleeding in Finland and the laughing stock of the WAllies. Several news agencies of Neutral countries report that the Soviet Army is some asset to its Ally Nazi-Germany.

Nothing real on the Swedish engagement in Central Finland have been coming out. Warcorrespondents stay in the relative safety of Helsinki or in Turko in the west of country and as the Swedes are only referred to as Volunteers not many of the reporters have real information on what is going in Central Finland – those who do mainly Swedes don't betray the Finn's or Swedes to the World.
Foreign Minister Molotov is ordered to respond to the Swedes that the Sovietunion will participate in talks hosted by the Swedish Government.
However another offensive is ordered by Stalin to get a better position – at least try.
The offensive fails too and the warring parties meet in Stockholm, Sweden on the 10 March 1940.

  Sounding very good.

  Picking up on your other point I wonder what name TTL will use for a traitor who co-operates with a foreign occupier - or is even willing to encourage such an occupier?  Won't be a Petain or Lavel and not sure if anything else comes to mind.

Cheers - well we haven't really reached a situation where such is happening - apart from Belgium and Poland of course.

I'll have it in mind though Belgium at this time is more in a situation like WWI with the King and Army still in control of part of the country. Then it would be local officials though OTOH locals would know that the day to day situation have to be moving on. Of course if franc-tireurs is active in Belgium - and why not repraisals will occur. That would be the area of Degrelles Rexist movement so perhaps some will aid the Germans being named Degrellista or so?

[stevep]

Dec 1, 2023 21:21:20 GMT 575 said:

Dec 1, 2023 14:29:19 GMT stevep said:

  Sounding very good.

  Picking up on your other point I wonder what name TTL will use for a traitor who co-operates with a foreign occupier - or is even willing to encourage such an occupier?  Won't be a Petain or Lavel and not sure if anything else comes to mind.

Cheers - well we haven't really reached a situation where such is happening - apart from Belgium and Poland of course.

I'll have it in mind though Belgium at this time is more in a situation like WWI with the King and Army still in control of part of the country. Then it would be local officials though OTOH locals would know that the day to day situation have to be moving on. Of course if franc-tireurs is active in Belgium - and why not repraisals will occur. That would be the area of Degrelles Rexist movement so perhaps some will aid the Germans being named Degrellista or so?

  Well the easiest way would be if no one noticeable takes up such a role.  Or possibly in someone in Japanese occupied areas, although they would have a markedly lower profile as far as the west was concerned.

  In terms of Belgium, without the collapse of the western position with the OTL Sedan thrust I think Belgium will definitely fight on, at least unless and until things go markedly worse.  King Albert may no longer be about but his example in WWI when the position was much worse for Belgium will provide an example.  For Poland there might be some figure who decides rather Hitler and the Nazis than Stalin and the Communists but their unlikely to get any real support I suspect.